Silmarillion:Total War

[Monk]

Quote[/b] (Gothic_war_monkey @ Jan. 18 2004,11:06)]i think men should definately be included as a major faction as they did play a major part in the events in the silmarillion(particularly the "good" men) This would ad a bit more variety and make the mod more interesting. The Easterlings could just be incorporated into Morgoth's forces though as he basically spoiled them by starting gossip and rumour from their beginning

GWM

Comes down to the Green elves or Including Men, and i wouldn't mind either way to tell the truth. Either way this will be agreat mod, but i do see your point there War Monkey

[Emp. Conralius]

So, who's interested in being apart of the team?

Monk, you definatley know your stuff and would be a great help indeed.


I think Men of Edain should be included over the Green Elves. Since elves will be the majority of the factions, the Green Elves should hold their homelands as a minor faction.

Avarin is workin on units, while I'm doing some unit descrips. We need mapmakers ands a camp map. We also need everything else


So, if you are interested, just say the word

Right now, I'm writing unit descrips for Noldor and Angband

[Monk]

I'd like to be a part of the team, though i would be best suited as an advisor since i don't have any modding skills outside of basic stat editing. I had plans to do my own first age mod, but i eventually decided against it since, well, i just don't have the skills for it. However i did tons of research for it and because of that i pretty much know everything there is to know about the events of the first age.

Monk at your service

[Gothic_war_monkey]

U mean single player maps? Id be happy to help there, I know strider is already doing some but Id fill in any gaps for you(with pleasure)

GWM

[Strider74205]

I'm definently on board as a mapper. I have already created Gondolin and Thangorodrim. Pics of my maps as well as many third age maps I have been doing are located here. I'll be doing a lot more in the coming weeks.

I also know a lot about the First Age events and whatnot so I can help Monk as a resource there.

I would like to know how to make Historical battles if that is at all possible.

And I found a great map site for LOTR in general which has some great Beleriand maps, including Tolkien's original and a cool one that shows all the Elf factions. r3t's LotR Maps

[Monk]

I shall post info on factions every now and again, for now a bit of background info on the Noldor and the Return on Fëanor and his sons to Middle-Earth.

The Noldor - Deep Elves

The division of the Elves that followed Finwë as their lord. In the long march from Cuiviénen to the western shores of Middle-earth, they were the second great host. When they reached Valinor, they learned much from Aulë the Smith, and were accounted the greatest of the Elves in matters of lore and craft.

Fëanor, the greatest Noldor

Fëanor was the eldest son of Finwë and half brother to Fingolfin and Finarfin, and was told to be the Greatest of the Noldor. In Valinor, before the trees had died, he captured their light in three jewels that he named the Silmarils. And Melkor (Morgoth) saw their power and with the Help of Ungoliath (sp) he killed the two trees and stole the Simarils. In doing so he also slew Fëanor's father Finwë.


Without thought Fëanor Cried aloud and renamed Melkor, Morgoth, and it is said that afterward that was what he was called and no elf would utter his true name. Fëanor then Swore his infamous Oath, and to him lept his seven sons and they to swore it, that by the Name of Illuvatar they would not rest until they had retaken the Jewels.

He was able to convince his brothers Fingolfin and Finarfin to follow, but when the Teleri would not allow them to use their ships to sail to Middle-Earth, Fëanor attacked in a battle that it become afterward known as the kinslaying. Reinforcements arrived late and threw themselves into the battle with no knowledge of what had happened. The Noldor stole the great white ships and sailed north, but Finarfin did not follow. He turned back and led his men back to Valinor, yet his sons continued on, as did Fingolfin. he afterward became King of the Noldor still in Valinor.

The Noldor passed out of Valinor where a messanger of the Vala fortold that they would be cursed and that if they passed they would not be allowed into Valinor again, yet he allowed them to pass out into Araman, The narrow coastlands of Aman, north of Valinor. It was there that Fëanor betrayed Fingolfin and passed over the sea without him, taking only his fallowers and his sons. "Let them Curse my name" he laughed when they landed and burned the white ships. However Fingolfin did manage to cross the ice and enter Middle Earth by a north passage, but it is said he lost many in doing so.

In his hatred Fëanor led his men north and confronted Morgoth in the Dagor-nuin-Giliath-

-After their return, Fëanor had led his people up the Firth of Drengist, and then eastward to Lake Mithrim, on whose shore they camped. Morgoth saw an opportunity to wipe out his enemies, and sent a vast army of Orcs to launch a surprise attack on the Noldor. Though the Orcs greatly outnumbered the Elves, and had the advantage of surprise, the Noldor quickly turned the tide and routed their enemy. Many Orcs fled back over the Mountains, where they joined with reinforcing armies, but still they were no match for the Elves. Celegorm and his hunters chased them across Ard-galen and into the Fen of Serech, where they were destroyed.

Though it was a mighty victory for the people of Fëanor, the battle saw the end of Fëanor himself. Filled with wrath, he charged on towards Angband, thinking to utterly defeat Morgoth and retrieve the Silmarils. So he left his armies behind, and with just a few soldiers left to him, he was set upon by Balrogs, though it is said he fought valiantly, he was fatally wounded. He died soon after, leaving his seven sons to fulfil the great Oath they had taken with their father.

[Monk]

Information on a few key Noldor and Places

Fingolfin

The second son of Finwë and half-brother to Fëanor. After Fëanor's death, his eldest son Maedhros should have become High King of the Noldor, but Maedhros repented his deeds at the Kinslaying and refused the title, which thus passed to Fingolfin.

He ruled the lands to the northwest of Beleriand with his sons Fingon and Turgon, and dwelt behind the mountain fences of Hithlum during the long Siege of Angband.

When Morgoth broke the Siege in the Dagor Bragollach, Fingolfin was prevented from sending immediate help to the other princes of the Noldor by the ferocity of the onslaught, but when heard of the extent of their defeat, he rode in anger to the doors of Angband and demanded single combat with Morgoth. There they fought a mighty battle, but though Fingolfin wounded the Dark Lord, he could not prevail, and was finally crushed by Morgoth. His body was saved, though, by Thorondor, who bore it to a peak in the Encircling Mountains. Turgon came there and built a cairn over his father's remains.


Finrond

The eldest son of Finarfin and brother to Galadriel, who founded Minas Tirith in the Pass of Sirion, and delved his citadel at Nargothrond on the River Narog. He went with Beren on the Quest of the Silmaril, and was lost in the pits of Sauron on Tol-in-Gaurhoth.

Nargothrond

The stronghold and realm of Finrod Felagund, founded by him on the model of the halls of Menegroth in Doriath.

The stronghold of Nargothrond was carved into the rock beneath Taur-en-Faroth, and could only be approached by a narrow path along the high banks of the River Narog. No bridge was built across the river until late in its history. The citadel long lay hidden from Morgoth, and was ruled wisely for long years by Finrod. After he was lost in the Quest of the Silmaril, his brother Orodreth expelled the usurping sons of Fëanor, Celegorm and Curufin, and was lord in Nargothrond.

The lands to the north of the citadel were considered part of its realm, and the people of Nargothrond kept unceasing watch on the grasslands to the north, the Talath Dirnen or Guarded Plain.

When Túrin dwelt in Nargothrond, he persuaded the Elves who dwelt there to change their long policy of secrecy, and openly attack the servants of Morgoth. So the Dark Lord discovered the city's location, and sent out an army under Glaurung to sack and destroy it. An army was led forth from the city by Orodreth and went north to meet the forces of the Darklord. It would be the last battle fought by many Elves for the Noldor were defeated by an army of Orcs and Balrogs, soon after the city fell.


Gondolin

The great Hidden City of Turgon was concealed from friend and foe alike during the First Age by the Encircling Mountains, and guarded from trespassers by the Eagles of Thorondor.

In the fiftieth year of the First Age, Turgon journeyed from his halls in Nevrast with his cousin Finrod. Ulmo guided him to the hidden valley of Tumladen, and there he founded Gondolin. The city was completed in c. I 126, and Turgon's people who had dwelt in Nevrast travelled there secretly. Gondolin stayed for the most part hidden, and Armies only issued forth once to aid the other Princes of the Noldor in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad

The city was inviolate for almost four hundred years; Turgon did not break his secret leaguer until the time of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and even after that disastrous battle he was able to return in secret to the city with the aid of Húrin Thalion.

Morgoth's servants finally discovered Gondolin through the treachery of Maeglin, and it was sacked in I 510. Turgon was lost in the Fall of the city, but some few (including Tuor and Idril, with their child Eärendil) escaped the destruction and dwelt as Exiles at the Mouths of Sirion.

[avarin]

Good to see you all here now Yes I think I would agree to the most sensible set of factions, like I've said some of you know better than me. But I wouldn't Put more than three separate elf factions.

Let me know if this is a good breakdown.

1) Eastern Noldor, Feanor's sons high elves

2) Western Noldor, Finarfin and Fingolfin, combining two of yours, Monk.

3) Sindarin, Under Thingol.

4) Naugrim, Beleghost and Nogrod.

5) Eastern Men.

6) Edain.

7) Valinor, a papal-like faction, doesn't participate in the affairs of beleriand but it allows for certain game mechanics. Open to discussion, I know some don't agree with this one, I remember Earendil had to cross the ocean to get any action out of these guys.

8) Angband.

Now we have the majic eight.
Avarin

[Monk]

Quote[/b] (avarin @ Jan. 18 2004,18:31)]7) Valinor, a papal-like faction, doesn't participate in the affairs of beleriand but it allows for certain game mechanics. Open to discussion, I know some don't agree with this one, I remember Earendil had to cross the ocean to get any action out of these guys.

I'm a little worried here, though it's a good idea, I'm worried we will see hordes of Vanyar (Light elves, golden hair ect.) over running Western beleriand. IIRC Eärendil the Mariner was only able to find his way back to Aman with the help of one of the Simarils. The Valar should have ships (so they can enter into M-E) but let's try to keep them from becoming to powerful. Afterall we dont want to see them killing Noldor

Eärendil did sail across the Great sea, and in doing so he conviced the Vala to make war upon Morgoth in the War of Wrath, however Beleriand was all but destroyed in the coming onslaught. So it is my suggestion, that all other factions be denied ship building, save Morgoth and the Valar themselves. We dont want to see the Noldor making war upon Valinor, but Morgoth sailing across the sea to battle is a lot more logical.

If we can, i'd like to have the Valar as passive as can be, with Morgoth agressive almost to the point of being suicidal .

[avarin]

Yes my good man, good advice. How about Cirdan and the Havens(?) being a "papist" state too (probably a bad idea, don't know about this one)? We can make them (Valinor) really weak economically so that they spend it all to maintain a few really good units, like when youve got the pope trapped in METW. Good advice for Morgoth.

It would be good to have two valar provinces because the valar could respond with their prohibition of the attacking faction. and could retreat across the sea, and fight the intermittent sea battle to stop Morgoth's forces from taking valinor, I agree with your maritime model 100%.

Thank you,
Avarin

[Monk]

Map of beleriand

This is a well done map that shows where each faction was and what lands they controled (of course the Vala had Valinor)

Sindar - Grey Elves

An Elvish people of Telerin origin. Coming to the western shores of Middle-earth with the others of their kin, they did not pass across the sea, but remained in Beleriand. Some had tarried there searching for their lord, Elwë, while others were persuaded to remain by Ossë the Maia.

Before the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth, the Sindar were found in most parts of Beleriand; all claimed Elwë (known as Thingol in the Sindarin tongue) as their high king. There were two main countries of the Sindar, however; in Doriath under the rule of Thingol and Melian, and in the Falas, under the lordship of Círdan the Shipwright.

Thingol

In his early life, millennia before the beginning of the First Age, Thingol journeyed to Valinor with Ingwë and Finwë, and was returned to the Eldar who dwelt at Cuiviënen. From the travellers' reports of the Blessed Realm, many of the Elves marched westward across Middle-earth, seeking the land of the Valar, and the third and greatest host of the Elves, the Teleri, were led by Thingol and his brother Olwë.

As they neared the western coasts of Middle-earth, Thingol came upon Melian the Maia in the wood of Nan Elmoth. Long years passed, and at length he remained with Melian in Beleriand, though many of the Teleri passed West over the Great Sea. With Melian, Thingol founded the woodland realm of Doriath in the central regions of Beleriand, and there ruled the Sindar for many years. Thingol's doom came upon him when Beren brought him a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown as the bride-price of his daughter Lúthien. He summoned Dwarves from the Blue Mountains to set the jewel in the necklace Nauglamír, and the Dwarves became so enamoured of their work that they slew Thingol in his own treasury.

Menegroth

Called 'The Thousand Caves', the stronghold and citadel of Thingol on the banks of the River Esgalduin in Doriath. It was delved in the long years before the rising of the Moon by the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains. Was told to have long halls and high pillars cover in vine, with the only entrance heavily guarded and over a bridge.


The Sindar fought the Sons of Fëanor only once and in the late first age, but it should still be noted of which.


The Valar

'Valar' is the name given to the fourteen powerful spirits who took physical form and entered Arda after its creation to give order to the world and combat the evils of Melkor. They dwelt originally on the Isle of Almaren, but after its destruction long ages before the Awakening of the Elves they removed to Aman and there founded the realm of Valinor.


Lords of the Valar Queens of the Valar (Valier)
Manwë Súlimo
Ulmo
Aulë the Smith
Oromë
Mandos (Námo)
Lórien (Irmo)
Tulkas Astaldo
Varda Elentári
Yavanna Kementári
Nienna
Estë the Gentle
Vairë the Weaver
Vána the Ever-young
Nessa

(The first seven names belong to the lords, the last eight to the queens.)

These are the names of the Valar as they were known to the Eldar in Valinor. In Middle-earth, they were known by other names of Sindarin origin; for example 'Elbereth' for Varda, or 'Araw' for Oromë. Their names among Men are said to be legion.


Manwë
Greatest of the Valar, spouse of Varda and King of Arda; he dwells in his halls on Taniquetil, highest of mountains, and the winds and airs of Arda are under his command. Considered by Illuvatar to be the 'Brother' of Melkor.

Ulmo
Lord of the seas and one of the greatest of the Valar; in the dark days of the First Age, he kept watch on Elves and Men while the others of his order remained in Valinor. He is famed for bringing Tuor to Gondolin, and so ultimately bringing about the downfall of Morgoth in the War of Wrath.

Aulë the Smith
One of the Aratar, the eight greatest of the Valar, Aulë was the Vala concerned with the substance of Arda; rock and metal. As his name suggests, he was also the builder and inventor of the Valar. He constructed Angainor, the chain of Melkor, and the vessels of the Sun and Moon.

In anticipation of the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar, Elves and Men, Aulë went so far as to create a race of his own, the Dwarves. Ilúvatar blessed them with life, but would not suffer them to be born before the Elves, so Aulë set them to sleep in Middle-earth until the Elves had awoken.

When the Elves came to Valinor, the Noldor became fascinated by the lore of Aulë, and became his students. Fëanor was his greatest pupil, and from him learned the craft to make the Silmarils.


Oromë
The Huntsman of the Valar, the brother of Nessa and one of the eight Aratar. In ancient times, he rode often in the forests of Middle-earth, and it was he who first discovered the Eldar at Cuiviénen.


Mandos
The Doomsman of the Valar and keeper of the slain in his Halls in the west of Valinor; his true name is said to be Námo. The spirits of elves gather within his halls where they shall be until Arda is remade after the end of time. The Dwarves beleive that they to go to the halls in a part set aside for them by Aulë their creator, but their fate the elves do not know and none do but the Valar.

Lórien
The common name given to the Vala Irmo, from the gardens in Valinor where he dwelt with his spouse Estë. it may be possible that the Realm of Lórien in Middle Earth was named for him, but it is not known.

Tulkas
The last of the Valar to descend into Arda, and the most warlike; he did battle with Melkor in the years when the World was young. It was only he who was able to defeat Melkor in battle, and afterward Morgoth feared him.

Varda
The Queen of the Stars and spouse of Manwë the King of Arda, great among the Queens of the Valar. She set the stars in the sky, for which the Eldar of Middle-earth revered her, calling her by the name of Elbereth.

Yavanna
Called the 'Giver of Fruits', Yavanna was the Vala whose province was all growing things upon the earth. She was the spouse of Aulë the Smith. Creator of the Two Trees, she also had a big part in the creation of the Ents. For upon hearing that Aulë would also have children (followers who were made after him as Illuvatar made Elves and Men) she went to Manwë and begged him to give her such things. Though He refused at first, she then argued that the dwarves, the men, and even the elves would hem down trees and have little heed for the nature that she had created. And seeing how it destressed her so, Manwë agreed to Create among the Forests "Shepards" to protect the green lands and grow many things. Thus were made the Ents.

Nienna
A Queen of the Valar, the sister of Námo and Irmo, who dwells alone on the western borders of the World. Nienna ranks as one of the eight Aratar, the most powerful of the Valar.

Grief and mourning are Nienna's province; in her halls in the distant west1, she weeps for the suffering of Arda. Her part in the Music of the Ainur was one of deep sadness, and from this grief entered the world in its beginning.

She teaches pity and endurance; though she rarely travels to the joyful city of Valmar, she goes more often to the halls of her brother Mandos to comfort and counsel those in the Halls of Waiting. The Maia Olórin, who was later to travel to Middle-earth as Gandalf, learned much from her.

Nienna played a part in the making of the Two Trees of Valinor; she wept on the mound of Ezellohar, watering it with her tears. After the destruction of the Trees by Melkor, she once again wept on their wounded remains, cleansing the filth of Ungoliant, and helping to bring forth the last fruit and flower that were to become the Sun and the Moon.

The pity of Nienna is most clearly seen in her support for Melkor when he sued for the pardon of the Valar. Though she spends her time in the world mourning for the destruction he has wreaked in Arda, when he sued for release after his three ages of Captivity, Nienna spoke on his part.

Of Nienna's appearance we have almost no knowledge. The only hint is in Quenta Silmarillion 9, Of the Flight of the Noldor, where she 'cast back her grey hood'. Given that Gandalf was her student, this might (though somewhat doubtfully) have some relevance to his title, the Grey.



Estë
A lady of the Valar, the spouse of Irmo, who dwells with him in the gardens of Lórien in Valinor. Not much is told of her.

Vairë
A Queen of the Valar, the spouse of Mandos, who weaves the tales of the history of Arda. She weaves together a great cloth that lines the halls of Mandos, it is here that is written the history of Arda for all time. Most likly so there will always be a record of everything, or so that those who have been slain and now wait in the Halls of Mandos, will not forget who they were and can see how the world has turned and changed.

Vána
A lady of the Valar, the sister of Yavanna and spouse of Oromë. Flowers were said to open, and birds sing, at her passing. Clearly she was told to be of untold beauty, but not much else is said of her role in the history of Middle-Earth


Nessa
The spouse of Tulkas and sister to Oromë, who delights in dancing on the green lawns of Valimar. Though I have researched her, Not much can be found. On this it is clear that she did not play a big part in the first age, or any age covered by Tolkien.

[Monk]

Quote[/b] (avarin @ Jan. 18 2004,19:17)]Yes my good man, good advice. How about Cirdan and the Havens(?) being a "papist" state too (probably a bad idea, don't know about this one)? We can make them (Valinor) really weak economically so that they spend it all to maintain a few really good units, like when youve got the pope trapped in METW. Good advice for Morgoth.

It would be good to have two valar provinces because the valar could respond with their prohibition of the attacking faction. and could retreat across the sea, and fight the intermittent sea battle to stop Morgoth's forces from taking valinor, I agree with your maritime model 100%.

Thank you,
Avarin

Actually that could work I have just laid out a model of the Valar of who and what they did. Hope that Info comes to good use.

IMHO Cirdan should be an extension of Valinor, though it may not exactly match up with the book, it does add a base for the Valar to enter into beleriand, and allows them to come to the fight against Morgoth first hand.

[Gothic_war_monkey]

How are you planning to deal with balrogs, dragons etc.? because although I have reservations about "hero" units it won't be Silmarillion:TW without some of those creations of morgoth. Also is there anyway to alter the kings/heirs to allow them to be immortal. Can you also decide the name of the heirs? It would be cool to have some really unique generals along the lines of the nazgul in metw(amazing defense and OK attack to stop stupid situations)

GWM

[avarin]

Nope, no dragons, no way to do that in the game engine unless they were baby dragons or something .
(Or dragons that looked like trebuchets. )

I think a small unit of balrogs(20) should be the command in Angband, but I know this may be disagreable to some, when heirs come to power they will have to have been the most powerful of units to begin with, which were the balrogs. Because leadership would be transfered based on brute strength rather than primogenitor. Although there will be orc generals, I think that the leutentant of Morgoth at Thangorodrim should be a balrog. Then, my friends, we could use the "king" pics for the balrogs, and the general pics for the orc generals, such that clicking on the "royal" balrogs brings up a balrog picture, and general an orc picture. Also, we could keep the balrogs limited by not having any production facilities for them, hence, as a balrog unit is decimated through repeated battle, its numbers grow thinner if too much than the "king" balrog dies and Angband loses. So the balrog will play a huge role in the mod. The balrogs should be expensive to maintain in large numbers, the dynamic works like this: Morgoth will want to sacrifice in battle more than a few of the expensive balrogs while cleverly keeping his chief baddy alive, when the leutentant is replaced by a badder baddy (ie king dies, heir takes over), the new balrog leutentant marches out to lean his unit up. At least that would be one possible tactic for a human player who played the mod as Angband.

Since Angband is using islamic game mechanics it prevents evil princesses of Thangorodrim which would be even more terrible than balrogs.

Quote[/b] ]Also is there anyway to alter the kings/heirs to allow them to be immortal. Can you also decide the name of the heirs? It would be cool to have some really unique generals along the lines of the nazgul in metw

I will try my best with these ones, need help, but I don't think there is a way, I was thinking an elf king's death could be a "return to valinor" event, unless he was killed in battle in which case it would be a regular mortal death.

I don't know how we would do the Dwarves if we go down these lines though.

Men will use existing protocols for death and heirs.

METW is going to have nazgul that is good news indeed, can't wait

,
Avarin

[avarin]

Oh alright, maybe dragons, if METW can do nazgul we could do dragons, maybe.

Avarin

[Strider74205]

I don't know if it would be easier to do but some of Tolkien's dragons don't fly. Glaurung for example. But my vote would be towards a more realistic approach. This has been debated many times over on the METW forum. The game itself is more suited to large scale battles with lots of units on screen. To make a "uber" hero unit or something like it simply disrupts the game and takes away valuable bifs that can be used to create more units.

However I think Balrogs would be great to have as a unit for Morgoth's forces. Have maybe 10 per unit and be really expensive but very powerful. We know for a fact that he used Balrogs in warfare since they were much more frequent at this time.

[Monk]

Balrogs

The Balrogs originated as Maiar, beings of the same kind as Sauron himself. They were primordial spirits of fire that had allied themselves with Melkor in ancient times, and became the most feared of his servants, especially during the Wars of Beleriand in the First Age. Details of their numbers are hard to state with certainty, but there seem to have been relatively few of them - probably no more than seven.

In appearance, the Balrogs were man-like, but fire streamed from them, and they were swathed in dark shadows. They carried whips of flame and induced great terror in friends and foes alike. In the War of Wrath, Morgoth was assailed by the forces of the Valar. Most of the Balrogs were destroyed in that War, but some few escaped over the Blue Mountains and hid in Middle-earth. Durin's Bane, the creature that drove the Dwarves from Moria, was one of these.

Lord of Balrogs, Gothmog

The most powerful of all the Balrogs, one of the chief servants of Melkor, who held an authority hardly less than Sauron himself. A wily commander and fearsome fighter, Gothmog was often accompanied by others of his fiery kind, and at least in the Nirnaeth he had a personal guard of dozens of trolls. His weapon was a great black axe.

The Elves first encountered him in the Dagor-nuin-Giliath, the battle fought under the stars before the first rising of the Moon. In that battle, Fëanor's fury had caused him to draw forward of the main force of the Noldor, and so he came upon Gothmog with only a small guard. Even so, he fought valiantly, and though the armies of the Noldor eventually drove the Balrogs off, Fëanor's wounds could not be healed.

After that first battle, Gothmog does not appear for several centuries. He emerged from Angband to fight in the battle known as the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the fifth and last battle of the Wars of Beleriand. He brought up a huge army, and drove aside the forces around High King Fingon, and slew the King with his axe. His trolls assailed Fingon's ally Húrin, who he eventually captured and brought back to Angband.

But Gothmog was not indestructible. He took part in (and indeed presumably led) Morgoth's deadly surprise assault on the Hidden City of Gondolin. In the square of the King in the heart of the city, he came upon the Elf-lord Ecthelion of the Fountain. They fought a great duel, and in the end Gothmog and Ecthelion slew one another. So ended one of the most feared denizens of the pits of Angband.

--

There were never a great number of these beasts called Balrogs, in fact i could find little info on their number as stated above, but its been made clear that there never dwelled an All Balrog army.

You Might want to look at making Trolls as soldiers for Melkor (morgoth) and they are said to have been made by him 'in mockery of the Ents'. A good description of Trolls comes in "The Hobbit" i beleive, though not to sure.

[theadept]

i'd like to help monk with the info
i know quite a bit about the 1st age
i fish i'd knew about this mod earlier

[Monk]

Quote[/b] (nicolasredfern @ Jan. 20 2004,14:19)]i'd like to help monk with the info
i know quite a bit about the 1st age
i fish i'd knew about this mod earlier

Greetings nicolasredfern and Welcome aboard

I've posted Info on the Noldor and Sindar elves, along with the Valar and Some info on the Balrog's Origins. However there is still a lot more to be done and posted, For instance the Dwarves need background info, as does Morgoth in Angband. He has a bit of info from Fëanor's section but there's a lot more, Not to mention the Edain Factions.

I was going to post the Info On Morgoth later on in the day, if you would like you could start on the Dwarves. Or the Edain, which ever you prefere.

[Gothic_war_monkey]

Quote[/b] ]probably no more than seven

thanks for the info(I had always thought there were far more than seven Balrogs) I guess i just assumed there were more.

avarin, that return to valinor idea is good. It should work a treat.

Just been reading the Silmarillion again, its inspiring stuff and it seems the first age is more suited to mtw than the third age(still cant wait for metw aswell though)

Is there anyway to make Silmarillion tw so it can be installed on the same game as metw, so for example you could hav first age and third age to pick from? not really bothered about that though.

Lastly hows it all shaping up? Like what is your focus at the moment?

GWM

[Monk]

Quote[/b] (Gothic_war_monkey @ Jan. 20 2004,17:40)]

Quote[/b] ]probably no more than seven

thanks for the info(I had always thought there were far more than seven Balrogs) I guess i just assumed there were more.

Actually its very possible that before the First age, when Utumno still stood, that the Balrogs were far more numerous. However after the Battle of Powers in which Melkor was captured by the Valar and his fortress destroyed, that only a very small number survived in the deepest dungeons of Angband which, in the Valar's hurry to capture Melkor, did not clear of enemies.

So by the Time Morgoth returned to Middle Earth there was only a very small number of these servants left.

[Strider74205]

If he had a lot of Balrogs he would have used them a lot more. If you remember, Morgoth only released them as either a last ditch defense or as a final assault force in his attacks. Or when he was REALLY angry (Gondolin). So yeah, not that many left.

[avarin]

Can we make a unit of 10 with the engine? I agree totally 20 seems like a lot, especially with how powerful they will be. I just can't imagine not having this uber-unit, in the midst of the thousands of orcs (and trolls). Of course he will be deadly. But It would be folly to risk losing the balrog unit because they would be few (balrog units) we will have to experiment but I would hope no more than three of the units at any one time. It is like in VI when you've got a really good king and don't throw his life away (usually).

I just don't think the Trolls were bright enough to make good generals, I might be prejudiced against Troll generals. They might start eating in the middle of the fray or something (just kidding).

Thanks Monk, GWM, and Strider wish I could buy you a beer .

Yes, thats right about the Trolls, a mockery of the Onodrim(Ents), I wanted to contribute Ents and Huorns as a rebel faction in METW, I think we could have them in ossiriand, or doriath? up to you guys, but it would be fun to try. Or we could make them a regular troop type in the Sindarin armies (a counter-piece to the Morgoth's trolls?) And the Huorns would be like really slow, but could be used defensively to make impassible areas for enemy forces, these huorns would look like trees. { What I'm thinking of course is that Elvish generals could pull of that trick the Huorns did in the Deeping Coomb below Helm's Deep, The retreating orcs would be massacred,trapped between the Elves and the Huorns.} And of course the vaguely homonid Onodrim (Ents). Still with the Ents and Trolls we have to have some type of counter-unit.



Mai govannen nicolasredfern

Namarie,
Avarin

[Ellesthyan]

What about giving Morgoth 3 Balrogs to start with, and no ability to build more?

[Monk]

Quote[/b] (avarin @ Jan. 21 2004,01:28)]Can we make a unit of 10 with the engine? I agree totally 20 seems like a lot, especially with how powerful they will be. I just can't imagine not having this uber-unit, in the midst of the thousands of orcs (and trolls). Of course he will be deadly. But It would be folly to risk losing the balrog unit because they would be few (balrog units) we will have to experiment but I would hope no more than three of the units at any one time. It is like in VI when you've got a really good king and don't throw his life away (usually).

Yes we can make units of 10, hell we can even make units of 1 . Here is my thoughts:

We give Morgoth a unit of Balrogs to start, around 3 or 5. Imagine the Kensai From STW, The Balrogs should have exelent attack and Exelent defense, but they should be slow as a counter "weight". The Ai could send their balrogs out from Angband along with it's orcs and trolls, but it must be cfareful in battles otherwise they would lose them all.

We should also have their upkeep and training cost to be, well high. I'm going to say 2000 florins just to train and somewhere around 400-600 to keep them. After a couple of units is trained, that is pretty much all that morgoth can afford til he loses some. IMO this is what the units should be organized as for Morgoth.

Orcs - they would be the bottem rung in the unit list, they don't really make strong soldiers against the Noldor and it didn't take long for the Dark Lord to understand that. Divided between sword/spear/and archer classes.

Trolls - They don't appear much but they were made to be a step up from the Orcs, in fact they were said to be the Elite body guard for Gothmog during the Sack of Gondolin. These guys should have some sort of Eliter unit, details can be defined later.

Balrogs - These dreadful servants of the dark first issued from Angband to battle Fëanor, and in so mortaly wounding him. They are spirits of fire, and though not many remain they stil have vast power and strength. A unit of anywhere from 3-5 would be fine, along mwith high training cost and upkeep.

Dragons - Mighty reptilian creatures who ranked among the most feared of the servants of the Dark Lord.Of the origins of dragons, no tale tells; the first of them to be seen was Glaurung, Father of Dragons, who first issued from Angband in the middle of the First Age. I cant see dragons being trained in vast numbers, maybe one dragon could be included and that would be Glaurung. He didn't fly so it might be possible to put him in, but i really don't know. If so he should have very high starting dread and atleast 4 command stars.

[Gothic_war_monkey]

Ents would be amazing How would the Huorns work? if you manage it you deserve somekind of award

Which units are you working on at the moment avarin?

ALso is there any idea of the exact time the mod will be, I suggest it could stretch from the death of feanor to the war of wrath.

I agree about the trolls not making generals as they are idiots. Also do you want any ideas for unit lists? with the absence of olog and uruk hai it will be harder to give angband a good spread of units.

GWM

[Gothic_war_monkey]

I think wolf units should be available to angband also and perhaps some men just available to them and not the easterlings(if we are having easterlings).

What is the current thought on realising the valar/vanyar?

GWM

[Monk]

Quote[/b] (Gothic_war_monkey @ Jan. 21 2004,13:44)]I think wolf units should be available to angband also and perhaps some men just available to them and not the easterlings(if we are having easterlings).

nearly forgot about them, and your right.

As for the Ents, i sugest we put them in the Taur-Im-Duinath. Its a vast forest on the border of Ossiriand.

[Strider74205]

Ok, I found something else I can do for the mod. I found some great heraldric symbols for the Elves and the Edain houses that we can use for faction flags and menu shields. So I can convert those and whatnot, i'm in the process of obtaining permission: they are not the ones drawn by Tolkein himself but they are based on his work and look really awsome. Once I get permission from the author we just need to decide what our factions are going to be, and which MTW ones they will overwrite. I can also do the names.txt while I'm at it once we decide.

Also will we be using Viking Invasion or not. It doesn't matter to me as I have it, but i need to know before I start making flags.

[Gothic_war_monkey]

i also have vi and i think the mod should be on this because of the ability to customise faction colours+ other fixtures. Once you get more units done can i be involved in the balancing process? i have been playing much more single player and mp recently so im getting more experienced. Im beginning to sound like a broken record here but can you think of any jobs for me to do? For example could I have a go at some unit descriptions?

Overkeen, underskilled, GWM