Fury of the Northmen Mod

[thrashaholic]

IMO, for the time-frame of the campaign we are doing at the moment we simply don't need the orthodox religion as the catholic and orthodox churches only split in 1054, before then they were one church. So, for this campaign, we could have the following culture/religions:

Viking pagan
Baltic pagan
Celtic
Christian

and then for any later campaign (after the catholic/orthodox split) we could do away with the Celtic culture and replace it with Orthodox.

Problem solved

[PseRamesses]

IMO, for the time-frame of the campaign we are doing at the moment we simply don't need the orthodox religion as the catholic and orthodox churches only split in 1054, before then they were one church.

You´re quite right about that. This is why I´d like some other paganism in the east, maybee russian pagans?

So, for this campaign, we could have the following culture/religions:

Viking pagan
Baltic pagan
Celtic
Christian

and then for any later campaign (after the catholic/orthodox split) we could do away with the Celtic culture and replace it with Orthodox.

Shrude planning m8!

[Sebastian Seth]

The Finns = Baltic Pagans - Sounds right

[wilpuri]

Although the great schism occured only in 1054, there were significant differences between the eastern church and the western church, and they did compete for souls. However, I think one type of Christianity will do for this mod, since it doesn't really extend into the nordic power struggles between Sweden & Novgorod, with Pagan Finland and the Baltic stuck in between. If I recall correctly, the Khazar Kagnate has a majority of Jews in mtw, do they have any distinct "personality"? Or do rebs have that at all?

[PseRamesses]

So, the Fury of the Northmen mod has found it´s natural, historical and appropriate ending campaign-year - 1054 AD! The search for the start year goes on!

[Sebastian Seth]

So, the Fury of the Northmen mod has found it´s natural, historical and appropriate ending campaign-year - 1054 AD! The search for the start year goes on!

Well, if you wan't to play svear or gotar in sweden, you should move
the end date about 200 years. Otherwise the start will be about 800 AD
and that will reduce the provinces holded by svear, gotar and novogrod.
It will increase the provinces held by norway, danes and finns. By that
time the swedish had conquered their own backyard and harashed
some cities in europe and baltic. But if the mod is made historicaly
accurate at that start date the finns should love it.

Do you know who ruled Birka before svear?
Who really destroyed Birka and Sigtuna?
Who really ruled novogrod?
If the ruler of novgorod is svear why is he attacking against svear?
Why does wilpuri really have swedish name and why doesn't he like
finnish nationalists who say that finnish shouldn't be forced to
speak swedish?

The swedish history was rewritten after they lost finland to russia. The
swedish history is not so bright. The swedish living in gotar are proud
of their history and are keen to seperate themself from svear. The
finnish history is also rewriten by swedish. You should use norwegian
sagas, english stories, danish stories and common sense to find out
what really happened. for example geological findings, latin descriptions,
hebrew descriptions together tell very different story.

Are the svear or gotar going to start as christian?
How about england?
Is there a list of factions that are in?

@Wilpuri
http://www.suomalaiset.org/PDF/jaastarautaan.pdf

[wilpuri]

SS,

I've been researching this subject for long enough to have come across some of the most ridiculous claims. Why Nationalist-written history is to be trusted even less, is because it is written with a clear bias in mind.

Why does wilpuri really have swedish name and why doesn't he like
finnish nationalists who say that finnish shouldn't be forced to
speak swedish?

Umm... If you read some of their articles, you will understand why I dispise these ultimately idiotic people. I won't get into that, but if you actually think these people have even heard of common sense and have any touch with reality, you need a reality check. These people are utterly disgusting. Frankly, I couldn't give a flying fuck whether we learn Swedish in schools or not. I'm actually against on a personal level.

I'm not going to buy into this nationalistic bullshit that most of Central and northern Europe was finno-ugric territory during the early stone-age or whatever. Being a patriot is great, but being a patriot to the extent that you accept anything and everything by nationalistic sources is just being naive. I suggest you read some books by Matti Huurre, for example, 9000 vuotta suomen esihistoriaa. He knows what he is talking about.

[PseRamesses]

SS,
I´m getting seriously worried about the ultra-right-wing ideas you have a tendency to go with. Please refrain from this in the future, ok? I very much appreciate the boost your appearence have made to this mod but this forum is NOT a forum for alternate or speculative history.

V A R N I N G !
One thing that I disgust is nationalists and their warped view on the real life and their so called claims in history. I urge this group to refrain from any more posts from dubious sources or should I demand that all posters should state their sources when posting to avoid this? Let´s work with the main stream history, well documented and accepted by most people, ok!? I don´t want to repeat this twice! And please be grown-up about this reprimand. I choose to make this statement, here and now in front of this community, that I will personally hunt down and terminate ANY nationalist infiltration of this great mod.

[Sebastian Seth]

I'm not a right wind nationalist. I'm actualy right in the middle. See there's
swedish minority in finland (5% of population) and there was a period
in finnish history when swedish destroyed a lot of finnish history. The
swedish population in finland where masters and the finnish population
where the workers. In that time the swedish where practising severe
elitism in finland. Some of them even succested that finnish language
should be wiped out because it was uncivilized and it should be replaced
whit swedish. This is political history, a thing that swedish would like
to disapier. This is like when every time I succest that
there might be something else than the swedish people have written
wilpuri states it's nationalistic shit and not true.

I say before: (its above.)
"You should use norwegian sagas, english stories, danish stories
and common sense to find out what really happened.
for example geological findings, latin descriptions,
hebrew descriptions together tell very different story."

Cant you read??? where does it say read nationalistic shit??? it does not!!!
It says read something else than swedish text, is everything else
nationalistic? Is swedish history the only right history? If it is then why
recruit researcers when some swedish priest can write it all the way
it fits and sounds nice? Did the faraos in live 1200 years becouse it
says so on their pyramids or did the next farao wipe out the text?
I succested like it reads above; to use other sources than swedish and
common sense.

And the book; 9000 suomen esihistoriaa by Matti Huurre.
I have read it, its right on the right side of my mouse
at the moment. Its published '90 and
is the 4th edition and its a good book but it does not tell about
finno-ugric people it tells about the geolocigal findigs in finland.
not in sweden!!! in finland, modern finland!!! Are you saying that
the same people who saled all over baltic and finland. traveled
all the way to north to hunt and fish did just go pass sweden
like there where red sign on every shore saying; this coast is reserved
for swedish please go hunt and fish elsewhere? Theres more
books to read i think?

And I didn't say that finno-ugric ruled the north europe. This you have
probably read from somewhere else. You should probably read the
articles about genetics of finland and lates articles of language
scientists. This might help you unterstand what is the situation
now and you could then start drawing the big picture instead of
digging small bites of information from all around. When you have the
big picture its easier to either confirm or dismiss the small bites.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Theres to kinds of nationalism in finland; the finnish and
the swedish. At the moment you're exercising another
and blaming me for another. I don't rewrite history and
I don't believe everything what is written. I don't blindly
follow anything and I can admit that my nation can
do horrible things in horrible atmosphere. Can u say the same?
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These nationalistic matters are taking time from real issues and
i'm tired of em. Offcourse there can be nationalism in history thats
the basic reason countries exist and it's nationalistic to even write
history at all. I didn't read any nationalistic material. I just read the
refrences to older readings and read the translations of the older
readings. And after that I crossreference.

The point of this mail:
1. When we are using swedish or swedish minded sources we should
keep in mind of the political history and the possibility of ethnic
elitism in them.
2. When we are using finnish nationalistic sources we should keep
in mind political history and the possibility of ethnic hatred against
sveans.
3. Archoligical findings can be found only where theres someone looking
for them.
4. Genetics and languages are very valuable source.
5. Common sense is a common and valuable source.

[Sebastian Seth]

@Pse
I'm not driving for alternate or speculative history. I'm driving
for the fact based history. I'm just stating that there could
be a very narrow view of the facts and we should be causes
about where the facts come from.

@Wilpuri
Sorry about the comment I made about your mothers language
and your name. It's common in my family and we all are mixed
blood of swedish, norwegian, karelian, kveen and jam. And on
top of it I carry the name of the man who adopted my father.
So I ain't so sensitive about comments made to my ancestors
and often laugh at them. I didn't realize you would be offended
by it and i'm sorry.

[PseRamesses]

I'm not a right wind nationalist. I'm actualy right in the middle. See there's swedish minority in finland (5% of population) and there was a period in finnish history when swedish destroyed a lot of finnish history.

I know all about it and I´m ashamed for this part of my countrys history and the appauling things my countrymen did to the Finnish population.

I say before: (its above.)
"You should use norwegian sagas, english stories, danish stories
and common sense to find out what really happened.
for example geological findings, latin descriptions,
hebrew descriptions together tell very different story."

I agree with this 100%. I´ve actually used Swedish sources mainly from the archaeological department but never for other nations. Whaen I research other factions I research the domestically produced evidence and try to verify it with international sources.

Cant you read??? where does it say read nationalistic shit??? it does not!!!"

Well, you did post some dubious theories a while back which got Wilpuri ticked off, right? But it was this statement that blew my top; "Why does wilpuri really have swedish name and why doesn't he like finnish nationalists who say that finnish shouldn't be forced to speak swedish?"

These nationalistic matters are taking time from real issues and i'm tired of em. Offcourse there can be nationalism in history thats
the basic reason countries exist and it's nationalistic to even write history at all. I didn't read any nationalistic material. I just read the refrences to older readings and read the translations of the older readings. And after that I crossreference.

We stand on common ground on this and we seem to research things in the same way and I belive you have done a good job at this thus far. When It comes to nationalism getting twisted and warped I just wanted to make shure this doesn´t happen to this mod.

1. When we are using swedish or swedish minded sources we should
keep in mind of the political history and the possibility of ethnic
elitism in them.
2. When we are using finnish nationalistic sources we should keep
in mind political history and the possibility of ethnic hatred against
sveans.
3. Archoligical findings can be found only where theres someone looking
for them.
4. Genetics and languages are very valuable source.
5. Common sense is a common and valuable source.

1. Agree
2. Agree
3. Agree
4. Agree
5. Agree

There´s really no need for you to be furious m8! I didn´t accuse you of beeing right-winged just that you where ventilating thoose kind of ideas. I did ask to take my reprimand in the right way since I knew in advance it might be based on a possible misunderstanding.
Firstly: I´m totally confidant, by your last 2 posts, that you share the common ground and objectivity with the rest of the crew which is important since our third "objective" with the FotN mod is "to portray the viking age in the most authentic and accurate way we can".
Secondly: I appreciate you enthusiasm for this mod and the hard work and private hours you´ve put into it. Your work and initiative has also resulted in a re-work of the Finnish area and a better solution in this area than we had before.
Thirdly: If you´re offended by my "accusations" I´m truly sorry. My sole intentions were to keep the "wrong" kind of nationalism out of the mod. So now that we have cleared out this misunderstanding I do hope that we can move on with our collaboration.

[Sebastian Seth]

@Pse
I don't think you should be ashamed for your countrymen. It's not like
you where masterminding it. And actualy the swedish did help finns
at later time. In the war against russia there was great fear that
the russians will exterminate the finns from the world like they did
to inkeri. And there was a systematic moving of finns to sweden so
there could be finns after the russia exterminated finland
(there was believe that we would get overrunned by the army
witch was many times bigger than our whole population). I believe
theres about 400 000 "svenskfinns" in sweden and about 20
is related to me. And two of them are on the same unit in army
(den är obligatorisk i finland för alla finne man över 18 år).

And your probably right about the part that got wilpuri
on his toes. If I'm guessing right he is an "finlandssvenskar"
and they are usualy not happy to talk about that period,
because of the terrible history. And they are more
sensitive about it than finns generaly. The nationalistic sites
are seeking and reporting every priviledge "finlandssvenskar"
have and every little thing "finlandssvenskar" have ever done
wrong. For example they raport how "finlandssvenskar" infantry
did rout in WWII, but they don't raport anything about the aid
finnish had from sweden in winterwar. This is an oppositing sides;

Fennomans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fennoman
Svecomans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svecoman

but back to the point:
did you find anything like "kaskeaminen" "Kaski" "Kvenland" "Kveen"
"uisko" "ukko" "land of women" "cajani" "cajan" "religional monuments"
or anything that points that the would be Kveens in sweden. I know
they had some settlements in near tornio lulea and they where
hunter-gatherers who travelled long distanses (to norway, etc).
I'm seeking if theres any base that they would have lived in
southern coast as well? In period that the mod starts or earlier.
Or mayby they did trade in that area. the religion is also good
way to look at it. was there any different version of paganism in
that area?

[wilpuri]

I am half Finlandssvensk, but as a Finn you should know, that it doesn't make me any less finnish. I am not sensitive about anything that can be backed by believable facts, but when it reads something like "Ruotsalaiset barbaari "sivistäjät" tuhosivat suomalaisen kulttuurin joka oli paljon kehittyneempi jne jne" then I simply don't trust that source, since it cannot stay unemotional and maintain its obejctivity on the subject. I haven't been offended by anything you have said so far, since I really don't care what you might think of me and my bilingual heritage. And to suggest in anyway that I am a svecoman, waiting to be awarded the freudenthal medal, or that I am striving to maintain compulsory swedish in schools, then you are wrong. Language is not an issue for me for I speak fluent Finnish and fluent Swedish (and fluent English for that matter), so I see it as a strength, not something I should be ashamed of.

Also, to claim that I have used Swedish minded sources is absolute BS. Which source, that I have given to you, is swedish minded if I may ask? Also, in the beginning of this thread, I said, that I will only use sources that fit into the generally accepted course of history! Good luck trying to change the history of the Nordic countries. I'm off to school. I'll write more about this later.

[Sebastian Seth]

There´s really no need for you to be furious m8! I didn´t accuse you of beeing right-winged just that you where ventilating thoose kind of ideas. I did ask to take my reprimand in the right way since I knew in advance it might be based on a possible misunderstanding.

Sorry, i've got bad temper. I get angry in a second and calm down
in 30 minutes. This is a kveen heritage that is very hard keep under.
But it's not to worry, it doesn't include real hate and passes as
things move along. It's mentality thing. Northern Fury. I can't
really explane it better, but theres lots of people like me in finland.

Firstly: I´m totally confidant, by your last 2 posts, that you share the common ground and objectivity with the rest of the crew which is important since our third "objective" with the FotN mod is "to portray the viking age in the most authentic and accurate way we can".

Yes, sincerely I do.

Secondly: I appreciate you enthusiasm for this mod and the hard work and private hours you´ve put into it. Your work and initiative has also resulted in a re-work of the Finnish area and a better solution in this area than we had before.

I have high expectation of this mod and I am only happy to help.

Thirdly: If you´re offended by my "accusations" I´m truly sorry. My sole intentions were to keep the "wrong" kind of nationalism out of the mod. So now that we have cleared out this misunderstanding I do hope that we can move on with our collaboration.

Allready forgotten. I do have habit of throung ideas on the table that
may seem absurd, but I do leave them open for debate. It's probably
this combined with my temper and argumentative nature that takes
it on the level of "verbal rock throwing contest". But I needed to
clear the nationalist accusations since they came up second time.

[Sebastian Seth]

@Wilpuri

I didn't say you are svecoman did I? If I did I'm sorry I was little angry
about the nationalistic label I you where giving me. The point was to make
clear that there is two kinds of bias moving around. You're surely
aware of the swedish rewriting of finnish history and it is this that
gets me worried. As it is commonly accepted and moustly untrue.
However pse just informed that he is aware of this and its under
control. I think you have lot more sources than I have seen and
you knock ideas out very fast. This is always like red robe to a
bull to me. What comes to your "bilingual heritage" i'm fine with
it. You're constantly twisting my words to look like i have problem
whit finlandssvenskar. Could it be that you have problem about
me not being finlandssvenskar? I'm I a nationalist and racist now?

I wasn't sure about you mainly because you first left out the finns
who lived in the area that sweedish conquered and included karelians
and inkeri. This sounds very wierd to my point of view and
is very similar to svecoman point of view. Then you reacted very
strongly to nationalistic site. Can you see from my point of view?

Some links in english:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/rastas/eng_carel.html
http://victorian.fortunecity.com/chr...2/frnjtre.html
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/DanishHistory/

Some links in finnish:
http://finnpro2000.tripod.com/kainuunmaa.htm
http://www.greywolves.org/artikkelit...n_Karjala.html
http://www.utu.fi/agricola/hist/kronologia/1100.html
http://www.uwasa.fi/~i80460/hist2.html
http://www.lappeenranta.fi/museot/Museo/index.html
http://www.nba.fi/NATMUS/MUSEUM/Opetus/index.htm
http://www.ugri.net/002/htm/index.htm
http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/hist.html
http://jumala.freeservers.com/yhteiso.htm
http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/suomenhistoria/index.htm
http://www.co.jyu.fi/tarvaalalaukaa/historia/g.htm
http://www.narva.sci.fi/amaijala/mattikur.html
http://jumalasuomi.tripod.com/terra_feminarum.htm
http://www.finnica.fi/suomi/index.htm
http://www.turku.fi/museo/historia/keskiaika.htm
http://www.pyhajarvi.fi/historia/esihistoria/
http://www.compuline.fi/ComDocs/Suom...l/fin-6s9t.htm
http://idefix.taide.turkuamk.fi/~ilu...omi/suomi.html
http://www.taivaansusi.net/historia/sigtuna.html
http://www.taivaansusi.net/inkunaabeli/hopeatie.html
http://www.inkeri.spb.ru/historia.html

There's some from you and some you have found, I tried to filter
nationalistic sites off.

[PseRamesses]

@Crew,
I think we can put aside the discussion on our nationalistic policies since we now know we all share a united view on this topic which is beneficial to the mod and a continous collaboration.

@SS,
Good link to Berkley. I went skimmed through their database and found a whole heap of sagas and docs I didn´t have, thanks! Regarding your Q about the Kveens homelands I have very little info on the Kveens. They are often mentioned in different Scandinavian text but I have no info on cities/ villages, techs, industries etc at all... hmm strange.

IMHO the Swedish "cover-up" of Finnish pre-Swedish history I interpret as a fact that my countrymen found strong evidence that the Finns had a thriving community before they arrived and I wouldn´t be a bit surprised if early "Swedes" actually were, at least to some extent, finno-ugiric. That would explain the total lack of any document before the first Swedish settlements/ colonization and conquests. Later on both Gusatv Vasa and Gustav Adolf re-wrote the Swedish history completely to prove their ancestry to Adam etc.

"To write history one must be more
than a man, since the author that holds
the pen of this great justiciary should be
free from all pre-occupation of vanity, or
interest" q: Napoleon Bonaparte

[wilpuri]

What comes to your "bilingual heritage" i'm fine with
it. You're constantly twisting my words to look like i have problem
whit finlandssvenskar. Could it be that you have problem about
me not being finlandssvenskar? I'm I a nationalist and racist now?

I wasn't sure about you mainly because you first left out the finns
who lived in the area that sweedish conquered and included karelians
and inkeri. This sounds very wierd to my point of view and
is very similar to svecoman point of view. Then you reacted very
strongly to nationalistic site. Can you see from my point of view?

Ok, first of all, you really shouldn't find it surprising that I get a bit cranky when you use suomalaisuuden liitto as a source. If they were only in opposition of compulsory swedish in schools, I wouldn't have anything against them, but they are utterly hostile towards swedish speakers in our country. It is people like them who draw the line between Finns. I personally see no difference between a Finn and a Swedish speaking Finn. But these people clearly do, and they say for example, that swedish speakers were cowards during the wars. You must realize, that this is the ultimate insult towards my grand father (god rest his soul) who fought from 39-44 and didn't see mcuh of his family at all. He was at the very front, fighting for his nation, and for what? So that a bunch of bigots can discredit his bravery and call him a coward? He has several medals awarded for his "kaukopartio" action far behind enemy lines. I have stacks of letters written by him to his sister from the war, and not once, not once did he complain. He did his duty like anyone else, and he is a hero in my opinion, a true patriot. It saddens me to the outmost extent, that some people try to divide our nation like that. But hey, its not bad, since according to them its not the swedish-speaker's fault that he or she is swedish-speaking, and what's more, it can be cured! These people are not racist, because we are not of a different ethnicity (although SL would probably want you to believe we are).

FROM SL:

In the Continuation War, no more bravery was to be expected from the Swedish-speakers, ready to save their own skin at the cost of Finns. Several references to this can be found in the series of books on the Finnish War 1941-1945 published by the War History Bureau of the Department of War History. Belittling Finns' military achievements has been customary enough in Swedish circles, as well as attributing the outcome of the War entirely to Russian benevolence. In spite of requests, hardly any food was supplied by Sweden during the war.

According to every history book I have read, it was the Winter War that UNITED the Finnish nation, regrdless of language, leftist or rightist. Sweden also happened to be one of the greatest supplier of aid to Finland during the war... I don't see what they try to achieve with this sort of propaganda, but it's disgusting. If you still wonder why I reacted strongly to this, then I give up.



Yes, I know the Swedish administration did rewrite history (to what extent, remains unknown) in the 17th century. I have explained SEVERAL times why I did not include the western Finns as a playable faction: THERE WAS ONLY GOING TO BE ONE FACTION. In my opinion, based on my research, I though the faction should be Karelia. Also, the reason I did not discuss the Kvens much, is because they are outside of the originally intended area.

Now, I would like to know how you would go about changing my flawed conclusions based on my flawed research and my svecoman views.

The two first links you posted, I have posted them in this thread as my resources, TO YOU, as well as the taivaansusi.net sites. What's more, after looking through those sites, I have visited everyone of them during my research. Tell me what's wrong with my research, and my conclusions and we might discuss it.

[Sebastian Seth]

@Wilpuri
The svecoman, etc. Was supposed to be past form (menneessä muodossa),
there might be misunderstanding in translation. I do not share the
views of SL, like I said before. I'm tired if repeating, please read
mails above. About war history; the SL is just spotliting on one unit
of many that didn't attack on command and rout. It's not commonly
talked about but the finns did rout in talvisota. Of course elite units
like "kaukopartio" didn't, but the normal conscript did. And the SL
theory of breaking of mannerheim line is nonsence. Well I have
said this all before and its not really issue. We both know the
truth and the board haves some of it too, can we leave it now?

About links; Yes there is some you have posted before, I don't remember
where they all come from. The point is to find those not yeat found and
crossreference it to what other researcers have. Thats why I post
what I found, expecialy the sites in english. I would love to take
look at more of your links too. I'm not hunting recognion, I'm hunting
knowledge.

@Pse
The kveens seem to be mysterios to some extend. The roman and
islamic sources I have found seem to mix up the finns to baltic finns,
shamish and germanics. On their view of world finland and sweden
are islands on the edge of the world. Later they place kvenland
to the area of sums and jems. Theres some movement from sweden
to the coast of finland and i'm making a guess that this could be
two way movement and the borders wheren't so clear at the
time. So the mixup of people on both side of coast could be
likely. Now what i'm searching is religional or grammatical similarities.
It's not likely to find places with finno-ugric names or traces of
conquest. More like weapons in graves, same kind of archeological
findings, references in sagas, etc. Also the way they buried their
dead and how far it was from the place they lived. A reference map
with place names would be nice too. And I time line in english if
there is any good ones. And old place names are usefull too.
There was (in some saga) notation of the swedish and finnish kings
having some argumenting. And its not likely that they sailed over
the bothnia sea just to have argument. What I'm looking is the
point of contact. This is likely on land, but where?

[Sebastian Seth]

@Wilpuri
I'm not saying your research is flawed, but it didn't have enough weight
on it. Now there is coming two finn factions and finland is not going
to be the first province to take when playing svear or novgorod.
I don't think I have to remind you that the area of modern finland
wasn't conquered at the period of the game at all. I'm allso stating
that the swedes or novgorod wasn't superior race tecnologicaly.
To my view it doesn't matter is the arrowhead iron or bone when
it hits you in the ass. The conquest should be done trough tactics
and good usage of the units you have. The streight of the army
is in numbers and in the winsdom of it's leader. Correct me if i'm wrong.

[PseRamesses]

@Wilpuri & SS,
Drop the discussion on WWII, IMO it´s not relevant. FYI I too had a grandfather that served the entire war on the Swe/ Fin border with aid and rescue missions in Finnish territory on numerous occasions and the stories he told me about the Finns, both sides, and their bravery, stamina and endurance was astonishing. Let´s concetrate on FotN.

The border on Kveenland isn´t that important, if we have room for yet another reb-prov in Finland we can solve that problem when we get there.
Decide weather the 2nd finn-fac should be Sums or Jems. Make a kingslist (if possible), names - males and females, unique buildings, special units although I belive pretty much of Wlpuris units for Karelia could be used. I support SS theory that the "Finns" should have a stealthy, fast, highly manoverable unit preferably with a double weaponry like spear/ sword/ axe or bow/ sword/ axe etc and with none or light armour. Ofcourse we can mak the Finnish provs highly rebellious to simulate the fact that she wasn´t conquered during this time-frame.
Also a research on trade-goods, mines or other natural resources plus some insight on the terrains features of each province for the battle- and castle-maps would be great.

[Sebastian Seth]

@Wilpuri & SS,
Drop the discussion on WWII, IMO it´s not relevant. FYI I too had a grandfather that served the entire war on the Swe/ Fin border with aid and rescue missions in Finnish territory on numerous occasions and the stories he told me about the Finns, both sides, and their bravery, stamina and endurance was astonishing. Let´s concetrate on FotN.

I Agree.

The border on Kveenland isn´t that important, if we have room for yet another reb-prov in Finland we can solve that problem when we get there.
Decide weather the 2nd finn-fac should be Sums or Jems. Make a kingslist (if possible), names - males and females, unique buildings, special units although I belive pretty much of Wlpuris units for Karelia could be used. I support SS theory that the "Finns" should have a stealthy, fast, highly manoverable unit preferably with a double weaponry like spear/ sword/ axe or bow/ sword/ axe etc and with none or light armour. Ofcourse we can mak the Finnish provs highly rebellious to simulate the fact that she wasn´t conquered during this time-frame.
Also a research on trade-goods, mines or other natural resources plus some insight on the terrains features of each province for the battle- and castle-maps would be great.

Sums and Jems are names used by novgorod. But we could include
both of them and kveens by callling second faction Suomalaiset or
something like lead from that. It's my understanding that finns where
called Suuoma (Our law or something like that in latin) in early ages.
And the name suomalaiset is what we call us today. The influences
on the Sums and Jems are quite if not very same and they were
more or less united at the time of game period. We can use kings
of kveens and charecters of kalevala as kings of finns (as in wilpuris
karelian names). We should make a list of units and buildings of
karelians and finns. And then look at them. wilpuri's original list
should probably be the base of it.

[PseRamesses]

Sums and Jems are names used by novgorod. It's my understanding that finns where called Suuoma (Our law or something like that in latin) in early ages. And the name suomalaiset is what we call us today. The influences on the Sums and Jems are quite if not very same and they were more or less united at the time of game period.

I do belive Suuoma is a very good faction name. It´s close to Sums, Suomi and Suomalaiset. What´s your opinion Wilpuri?

We can use kings of kveens and charecters of kalevala as kings of finns (as in wilpuris karelian names). We should make a list of units and buildings of karelians and finns. And then look at them. wilpuri's original list should probably be the base of it.

Sounds like an exellent idea since Kalevala is a great source. I know W had some difficulty in the beginning with names and had to take them from different sources and create a kingslist and male/ female names etc. It´s located earlier in this thread. Confer with W so that there won´t be too much similarities between the Suuoma and Karelians.

[wilpuri]

I do belive Suuoma is a very good faction name. It´s close to Sums, Suomi and Suomalaiset. What´s your opinion Wilpuri?

Never heard of it before, so its hard to say. Link?

Sounds like an exellent idea since Kalevala is a great source. I know W had some difficulty in the beginning with names and had to take them from different sources and create a kingslist and male/ female names etc. It´s located earlier in this thread. Confer with W so that there won´t be too much similarities between the Suuoma and Karelians.

The Karelians are a Finnish faction, and spoke practically the same language as the rest of the Finns, so I don't think it's too bad if they have the same names.

The influences
on the Sums and Jems are quite if not very same and they were
more or less united at the time of game period. We can use kings
of kveens and charecters of kalevala as kings of finns (as in wilpuris
karelian names). We should make a list of units and buildings of
karelians and finns. And then look at them. wilpuri's original list
should probably be the base of it.

As I understand it, they were not the same. They united mostly against the Karelians, but in peace time, they were still the loosely organized tribal communities, but for game play reasons, may be they could be shown as one. Culturally, I'd say the W. Finns and the E. Finns were quite similar, at least at the beginning of the period, before the cross-fire of influence from both east and west.


As for the rebelliousness of the Finnish factions, the same should apply to the Baltic. They resisted christianity and "crusaders" for longer than the Finns did, and they also actually rebelled against their viking lords at Seeborg. The viking had conquered a beach head in curonia, and built a fort to guard the trading centre. They taxed the locals, who then rebelled and drove the scandinavians out. There were no known viking trade posts in Finland. There were many viking-style trade posts, but which were in the control of the Finns nonetheless.

[Sebastian Seth]

Wilpuri emailed me the list of karelian names earlier, so I have it. I been
doing some addions on them but so far nothing that could be a near
final presentation. I have some ideas I like to hear opinios.

1. Use some modern surnanames lead from animal names.
eg. Kärppä, Karhu, Hirvi, Peura, Karhunen, Metsonen
(This could be correct as the religion of paganism is
nature based and is quite common in finland.)

2. Use some modern surnames lead from professions.
eg. Takoja, Timpuri, Seppä
(Humans have tendencies to call people by profession like
smith, taylor, etc.)

3. Use some modern names lead from place of house.
eg. Yläjoki, Virta, Alamaa, Lahti
(also common in modern finland)

4. Use modern names lead from tribe of origin.
eg. Liiviläinen, Hämäläinen, Kainuulainen

5. Use modern names from finnish calendar, but eliminate
those of witch are catholic, ordodox or king names.
eg. Antti, Aarne, Jukka, Pekka

6. Double the forenames we have by using Prefixes.
eg. Ukko-, Veli-, Vanha-

8. Double the surnames we have by using Prefixes.
eg. Ylä-, Ala-, Iso-, Uusi-

9. Make more king names by using old finnish names.
eg. Haipus, Ainali

10. Make more king names by using old finnish names with prefix.
eg. Vanha Väinämoinen, Iso Ainali, Suuri Karjala

11. Make modern names look old with letter changes.
eg. Wanha Carjala, Caijnuulainen

12. Use name of beatifull things as Princesses.
eg. Kesä, Kukka, Ruusu, Unelma

13. Use some baltic forenames.

14. Lead surname from fathers forename like norwegians.
eg. Lauri Erkinpoika, Antti Jussinpoika

15. use idea in 14. to make more forenames.
eg. Lauri Erkinpoika Seppälä

16. Use references to status as names.
eg. Tietäjä, Viisas, Vanha, Taitava

I had some more ideas but theres a lot of names that we can lead from
one like Smith="Seppä" ... Seppä, Seppälä, Seppänen ... And the prefixes
like river="joki" with prefixes upper="Ylä" Lower="Ala" New="Uusi" ...
Joki, Jokela, Jokinen, Yläjoki, Alajoki, Uusijoki. And we don't actualy
need 1000 names for the mod.

The main dilema I have about this is basicly same that wilpuri had;
How do you write someones name in year 1000, when hes name
was written first time in 1600. ; Surely they had names to refer
to someone, and names to seperate the smith from other villages
from the smith of own village. But the names are very much
from the period of swedish power because the swedes had greater
need to seperate individuals for taxation. Simple example:
Erik the son of Erik from the end of river=
Erik Erikson Joenperä
This tells that there is not actualy more than one name per
person, the rest is just a information. But it's also possible that
the father was respected man and the name carries status.
It would be awful if all the finns where sirculating 10 names.
So tell me what you think. Wilpuri's opinion is very important
since he understands the meanings of these names.

[wilpuri]

If we are going to be having surnames for the Finns and Balts, then your ideas are not bad. aren't Antti, Aarne, Jukka, Pekka all Christian names?

[Sebastian Seth]

The site refering "suuoma" word where nationalistic so I'm not going to
give it. Sorry. My Bad. It was based on the letter found from novgorod,
that included the word. It was refering to our law/word/mouth. It would
become "suoomalaiset.

Another theory was that it was formed from words "suo" (swamp) and
"maa" (land) together they would be "suomaa" (swampland). When
you say in finnish using this word it becomes "suomaalaiset".

3rd theory was that it came from shamish word for their tribe
"saami" and this is why finns talked about them self as "suomi".
This would become "suomilaiset.

4th theory was that the name was from the river of "suova". Witch
is austria and the base home of finno-ugric people. This becomes
"suovalaiset".

5th theory was it refers to clothing of fish scales, witch is
the word "suomu" and becomes "Suomulaiset".

6th theory was that it was envolved from baltic word "zeme" witch
means land. Like "Zeme" - "sämä" - "saama" - "sooma" - "suomi". and on
another direction "zeme" - "sämä" - "häme". These don't look like same but
in finnish they have strong similareties. It Becomes "Zemeläiset",
"Sämäläiset", "Saamalaiset", "Soomalaiset", "Suomalaiset", "hämäläiset".

Finnaithae, Screfennae, Suehans, Suetidi are some tribe names used
by Jordanes. Finns, Fenns, sui one, suo ona, suebos and sithons
are names used by Taticus. Kveen is name used by Adam von Bremen.
Sums and Jems are used by novgorod.
None of these are actualy certainly names that finish used about
themself, but some of them sound like Suo. So I think it's safe to
say that the name would be something starting as Suo. The reason
why I recomend Suuoma is because it forces english speaking to
pronounce the word long like finish do.

[wilpuri]

Since there isn't a clear consensus among the historians concerning the etymology of Suomi, or the name the people themselves used of their people, I think "suomalaiset" would be a diplomatic solution, or Hämäläiset, depending on which faction is the "more dominant one", that gives the western finns their name in the mod. Just my two cents though.

[Sebastian Seth]

If we are going to be having surnames for the Finns and Balts, then your ideas are not bad. aren't Antti, Aarne, Jukka, Pekka all Christian names?

I'm under the inpression that Antti is somekind of god or spirit of
rock, Aarne is refering to forrest, Jukka refers to ukko, and Pekka
refers to baltic name pek. Somebody said that antti and aarne
are finn versions of Andreas or anthon but i find it hard to believe.
see:
Andreas - Anreas formed an+re+as
Anthon - Anton formed an+ton
Antti - Anti formed ant+i
Aarne - arne formed ar+ne

I could be wrong, but I think the church took original finish names
and altered them to their current form. It's hard to say how
the names would be written since they where not. Then again
I have never memorized the bible so it's hard for me to say
witch is christian and witch are not. So if I collect for names
and you take a look at them to filtter out names that are christian
or ordodox.

[wilpuri]

Well I did look at all of those names, and they all have Christian origins according to the site I checked, but you are probably right, that the chruch just took the names and altered them. It can't be very easy to force a people to take entirely new names just like that... Pekko however is a very old name, and Pekko was god of the crops/harvest of ancient finns, so Pekko should do (i think i have it in my list). Anyway, we have enough names as it is, so we don't need too many new ones.

[Sebastian Seth]

Since there isn't a clear consensus among the historians concerning the etymology of Suomi, or the name the people themselves used of their people, I think "suomalaiset" would be a diplomatic solution, or Hämäläiset, depending on which faction is the "more dominant one", that gives the western finns their name in the mod. Just my two cents though.

I am willing to go with this though. Should we shorten it to Suoma, as
the suomalaiset is the modern form and the -laiset is offical after
Agricola's work.