Fury of the Northmen Mod

[PseRamesses]

Hey guys, I just got my Armies of Medeival Russia 750 - 1250 osprey book. I'll post info about it asap

This, I´ve been waiting on for 8 months. Menedil, how is it going?

[Meneldil]

Hopefully, I should get some free time to post some info and plates later today :)

[PseRamesses]

Hopefully, I should get some free time to post some info and plates later today :)

Great Menedil, I´m looking forward to it.

[Meneldil]

Ok, here are a few ideas about early russian armies :

Malaia Druzhina cavalry : they are noblemen. I guess they should be seen as a heavy cavalry, and as the king's bodyguards unit aswell, with possibly 2 different units.

Grid' Druzhina infantry/cavalry : "It consisted of retainers, servants, assistants and soldiers". Could be used as medium infantry and/or medium cavalry.

Izgoi : It means 'hired-men'. They were not-rus warriors hired in Druzhina. You can add a new unit that would be different from the other druzhina, or just don't use them.

Urban militas : They are the most important source of troops. They were mostly trained to defend cities while real warriors were away. In my opinion, these units should only be hired in great cities (Novgorod, Kiev, Staraya Ladoga, Pskov), and each city should be able to hire a different militia unit
(from what I've read in the book, Novgorod Militia could be more disciplined, Pskov militia could use bows, etc.)

Voi : Light spearmen

Apart from that, Rus armies often hired mercenaries, mainly people from the steppes. They were called Klobuki, and were composed of many different people such as :
Torks (I have never heard this name before)
Pechenegs horse archers
Armenians
Oghuz

PS : I know the info I posted aren't that great, but I had to study and read a book for university. I'll do all I can to post a more precisly explained summary as soon as possible

[wilpuri]

I just purchased a book yesterday called "Guards of the Eastern Front" (Itärajan vartijat), and it is the first part of a book series which tells of the border/Frontier between Finland and Russia from early medieval times to 1809. The beginning of the book (which I have read so far), provides insight into life and military organisation of late-viking age Finland. It does not have much information that has not been mentioned before, but it has some good pics
It says how Swedish rule was really only introduced somewhat later than had been believed earlier. Parts of Finland are said to be under swedish rule in some documents from the time, but the author, Lena Huldén, suggests that this only meant that some parts had come under the church of Sweden. Huldén writes that without a governor of some type living permanently on Finnish soil, it was impossible to have much influence on the running of things, and governors came later. It also mentions how Christianity only slowly started to take root in Finland. In a papal document written around 1100, The Finns and Estonians are said to be within the area of influence of the Swedish Chruch, and that they gladly welcome priests when they come with an army to help the Ests and Finns in their fight against their eastern neighbours, but as soon as the danger has passed, the Finns retort back to their pagan ways and drive out the priests

I'll post more when I find something interesting, and I can also scan some of the pictures.

[PseRamesses]

It says how Swedish rule was really only introduced somewhat later than had been believed earlier. Parts of Finland are said to be under swedish rule in some documents from the time, but the author, Lena Huldén, suggests that this only meant that some parts had come under the church of Sweden. Huldén writes that without a governor of some type living permanently on Finnish soil, it was impossible to have much influence on the running of things, and governors came later.

IMO she´s correct. I´ve tons of docs, refs etc to raids, crusades etc but Sweden didn´t conguer Finland (Åbo and the western part) until around 1150 AD and the first Jarl over Finland was Jarl Bengt in 1284AD. Haven´t got much to do now at school so I´ve been searching the net like a madman for early province names in Sweden.

[wilpuri]

The so called "Second Crusade" was conducted against the Tavastians (Häme) in 1234 (IIRC), and this was a largely successful crusade. The Häme were utterly subdued, and Swedish garrissons were left to keep the area under Swedish influence. The Häme had just suffered defeat in a raid they conducted against Karjala and Novgorod. The Häme had pillaged and raided their way through much of Karelia, taken several prisoners to be sold as slaves, and were now marching on Novgorod, when the Armies of Novgorod and Karjala came to meet them. After seeing the Strength of the enemy, according to Novgorodian chronicles, "the Tavastians butchered their prisoners and escaped into the woods". They were pursued and their number was greatly reduced before they reached safety. Novgorod and Karjala then launched a counter attack and pillaged and raided their way into Häme, and were successful. Now greatly weakened, the Häme were an easy target for the Swedish crusade, which more likely than not, was timed as it was just for that reason.

The Pagan elite of Western Finnish society was then replaced by a Christian (and largely Swedish) elite, to ensure loyalty of the newly acquired lands.

Another interesting bit of information is, that the book says that Staraya Ladoga (Laatokankaupunki in Finnish) was subdued by Novgorod in the 13th century, and taken from the Ingrians (Inkeriläiset), so this suggests Starya Ladoga was an Ingrian stronghold and place of trade.

Karelia had a form of self-rule all the way to the 1260's, which becomes apparent when examining Novgorodian documents between German traders and the Novgorodian rulers, where the Novgorodians say that they cannot guarantee safety in the lands east of Koivisto, as these belong to Karelia. Karelia is mentioned in the Novgorodian documents as an ally of Novgorod until 1269. Also, in 1278 as Novgorod was suffering from internal power struggles and Mongol molestation, the Karelians took the chance and managed to gain greater autonomy once more, however short lived.

My scanner has been playing tricks on me, so I'm not sure when I can get these images up on display, but so far I have images of:
-The Häme defending a Hillfort against Novgorod
-A "Warning beacon" on a hill looking out to what seems to be the Gulf of Finland, where a fleet of longboats is sailing
-A visualisation of the raids between the Western Finns and Karjala
-Tavastian Pagan rulers confering with Birger-Jarl (Could be used for many things)
-A visualisation of farming in Finland
-An illustration of a construction site in Finland
-An illustration of an Island Fort
-Several medieval illustrations describing events from Olaus Magnus' "Historia de gentibus septentrionalibus" written in 1555.

Among the medieval illustrations, there is one depicting the Bjarmians, (I think they are Permiäläiset in Finnish) on skis, with bows and arrows. This might suit well the Wilderland hunter unit. The book also mentions that the Kaukopartio units in the Finnish Army (Sebastian Seth will know what I'm talking about) have their roots in medieval times, when both Swedes and Novgorodians used Finnish units to make long and daring raids deep into enemy territorry. In winter, it was possible to move fast thorugh such terrain on skis, and booty was easy to transport back in sledges. So I've been thinking that the Wilderland hunters could be adjusted:

Make them bigger units, fast, bonus in woods, able to hide anywhere, good morale.

There is a description in Novgorodian chronicles, where a Karelian "Long-duistance" unit like the ones mentioned above, played a crucial role in the winning of the battle. I can't remember the date of the battle, but it was around 1200-1300.

I realize that most of this is out of our timeframe, but it gives us a good idea what the Finnish tribes were like in viking times, what their military orgainization was like, their livelihood and relations with others and so on. The Authors says that Although technologically the Finnic factions were as advanced as their neighbours, they did not unite politically as soon (or at all). This is largely blamed on the poor communication network and scarce population.

Anyway, this book has been a real find. I will try to get those pictures scanned ASAP.

[Sebastian Seth]

Yes, the wilpuris info about the häme is same that I have. Some sources
say that there was some kind of huge massacre in häme when the
swedish took over, but it was unclear was it agains civilians or
military. However theres not real difference in finnish between
these two since every man (and woman?) is likely to take arms
and defend their home.

Conclusion 1:
This confirms that we did right when we added one finnish mainland faction.

Another interesting bit of information is, that the book says that Staraya Ladoga (Laatokankaupunki in Finnish) was subdued by Novgorod in the 13th century, and taken from the Ingrians (Inkeriläiset), so this suggests Starya Ladoga was an Ingrian stronghold and place of trade.

I believe I posted about this earlier. The Ingrians (inkeriläiset) where
the dominant population in that region. Not only at the period of the
game but a hundreds of years after.

Here is a site in finnish for wilpuri: (theres a map for everyone else)
http://www.inkeri.com/historia.html
And some facts from site in english:

- In russian chronicles the people from Karelia are called both
"karelia" and "Izhore". (I'm not sure but this name looks like
"Izgoi" that Menedil refers earlier.)

- Novogrod took them in 12th century. And they were moved
in 1478 to rule of Moscow.

- 1926 there was 115 000 Ingrian-Finnish and 15 500 Finnish
in the area of Leningrad/St.Pietersburg ()

- Ingrian women and children talked finnish to until 1920-1930
and did not talk russia at all. The men learned russia at work.

This is the faction we took of when we added the Suoma. The game
map doesn't really include much of russia. The Novogrod is 160km
south of the Leningrad/St.Pietersburg and the City it self is barely on
the map. The Novgorod was founded in the 9th century and there
was some slavic settlement before that. So in the start of timeperiod
there isn't really Novogrod as we know it and the novogrod is a
slavic settlement without viking influences.

a link: (shortly on founding novgrod)
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0860066.html

a map: (of russia including novgrod)
http://www.cis.nctu.edu.tw/~whtsai/T...ssia%20Map.JPG

Conclusion 2:
When doing game from the viewpoint of vikings on the MTW, theres
going to be some historical inaccurancy in finnish, baltics and slaavians.

Among the medieval illustrations, there is one depicting the Bjarmians, (I think they are Permiäläiset in Finnish) on skis, with bows and arrows. This might suit well the Wilderland hunter unit. The book also mentions that the Kaukopartio units in the Finnish Army (Sebastian Seth will know what I'm talking about) have their roots in medieval times, when both Swedes and Novgorodians used Finnish units to make long and daring raids deep into enemy territorry. In winter, it was possible to move fast thorugh such terrain on skis, and booty was easy to transport back in sledges. So I've been thinking that the Wilderland hunters could be adjusted:

Make them bigger units, fast, bonus in woods, able to hide anywhere, good morale.

I posted about the finnish way of war earlier. The idea was to emphazise
that finnish have unique way of defending their country. This is the
same idea i believe. In the post i sayed that there is a way of war
in finland that is still in use. Now days they are called "tiedustelu" or
"sissi" in WWII they where "kaukopartio". What we need to do is
to find name for them and find a way to make them nearly invincible
in finnish soil and weaker in open ground. And yes definedly fast,
exelent morale and hiding ability.

Conclusion 3:
"Wildland Hunters" is a combination of bows, shields and spears.
superior skrimisher, exelent defender, good attacker.

I realize that most of this is out of our timeframe, but it gives us a good idea what the Finnish tribes were like in viking times, what their military orgainization was like, their livelihood and relations with others and so on. The Authors says that Although technologically the Finnic factions were as advanced as their neighbours, they did not unite politically as soon (or at all). This is largely blamed on the poor communication network and scarce population.

Or the absence of writing skills and the long tradition of trusting mans
word. If there was agreement of mutual defence between some tribes
at some time, it would be wise to not let your enemies know about it.
For example the Novgorod and Svear don't really see any difference
between Kveens and Tavasts. So If you are in peace with kveens and
attack tavasts. How can you tell if the tavasts include men from
kveens? This is just an idea but no so new.
Less your enemy knows; less he conquers. - me or Sun Tsu
I know where you live. - old threath in häme/tavast.

new site about finns in english (wery much stuff):
http://www.geocities.com/ojoronen/

[Sebastian Seth]

On Novogrod: (quick one)

- Proven settlement about 850AD
(lots of findings because of the clay soil)

- Because of the clay soul the streets where covered with timber.
(first two or three long logs along the street then short logs
on top them. the short ones cutted from the middle.)

- in the street of saint cosmos and damianos there was 28 layers
of these wood streets. oldest 953AD newest 1462

- houses where made of timber. some where 2 or 3 blocks high.

- there where specialized in leather works, shoes, glass and clay items.

- lots of trading items passed trought the city: wine, peanuts, exotic trees,
incense, spices.

- Skandinavians called it Holmgard

- the inner city had walls in 10th century. the wall was builded of wood
and dirt.

- 10th century it had wood church, 11th it was replaced by stone.

- main part of power where used by "vetse" (the people meeting). it
ordered the laws and govermentical issues.

Source: Lost Cities by Paul G. Bahn

[Sebastian Seth]

Izgoi : It means 'hired-men'. They were not-rus warriors hired in Druzhina. You can add a new unit that would be different from the other druzhina, or just don't use them.

There was lot of fenno-ugric tribes in russia these probably refer to
some (if not all) of them. If we make merceneries from finns and baltics
to apear in russia these are not needed. If not then these are needed.

[Sebastian Seth]

I've been reading the web for info about the Slavs and Rus. It seems
that the huns pushed the slavs to south russia and east europe.
And that meas the slavs pushed the Finno-ugric in north russia
futher north and to estonia and finland. The baltics moved to
estonia at the same time and mixed with finnish tribes in estonia.
This would explane the huge similareties with the finnish and
estonias. This also explanes why novgorod was growing so
fast at the time.

The name Rus however is kind of mystic.
In finnish viewpoint the novogrod's are swedish/ruotsalaiset/rus.
I believe at this time there was goths moving to south
sweden. Perhaps there was swedish moving to russia?
There was some small item founds that the swedes where
moving to finland too but in small numbers. And when you look
at the way of slavic goverments of today and the swedish
goverments of today, it seems that the swedes are much more
effective governors. If this is a racial attribute, it's safe to
assume that the novogrods really did invite swedish to rule
them (or selected one living there). This would explane why
the finns would call novogrod's as "rus".

The later unions of
finns where formed to drive away the treaths from
the east. It could be that this means the slavs, huns and mongols.
Still the Novogrod was the target of finnish attacks. It could be that
the finns where defending their lands from slavs and attacked the
biggest slav town they knew; Novogrod. There is some references
later that the swedish are helping finnish to fight novogrod. This
is at the timeperiod the swedes are pagans, so there is mutual
intrest of destroying the novogrod slavs. Later when Sigtuna
gets destroyed, but at this time the swedes are christians. This
seems to tic the karelians of more than the tavasts. It could be
possible that the Tavastas had closer relations to swedes than
the karelians, ingrians, Kuurians (Kuurilaiset). The Novogrod also
seperates mainland finnish to "sums" and "jems" but mix them
up all the time. And the swedes don't seperate finns to tribes.
This could be a viewpoint thing. If the swedes are thinking
in "nation scale" and novogrod is thinking "tribe scale". The Finns
are many tribes and not really used to think themself as nation, but
more like novogrod as many tribes.

This could be the simple reason
why finnish where driven north by slavs. Tribe by tribe not as nation.
Even the swedish invasion game in parts. If all the finnish tribes
would stand united, the men force would be huge. But if they where
seperated, there would be easy to first take one tribe, and then use
the taken tribe to take the next tribe and so on untill you would be
strong enough to take on Tavastians and Karelians. This tribe thinking
did go on a long time. It wasn't really finnish idea to unite the tribes
to one nation. It was the swedes and russians who teached this
by accident when they was fighting over finland. And the tribes of
Kveens, Karelians, Tavastians, Sums, etc declared independence and
took part in two World Wars as one nation. We lost the ingrians in
the wars and the other tribes seem do die or assimilate to russia
in the way.

But the point is that the finnish didn't get invaded because
the lack of brave men, military skills or good weapons. We got invaded
by the lack of centralized goverment. Svear and Novgorod had
this goverment.

Conclusion: We need big rebel armies in finnish provinces. So big that the
forming of one finnish nation is very very very hard.

btw, the above mail includes conclusions of quick mindstorming and it
is only one possibility of the state of things of the time.

[wilpuri]

Ok, I think it is time to try to sum up what we have so far, so that the people who are doing the actual modding won't have to search all over the place. I will keep this post as the final sum up, which can be edited if need be, but you will always find the latest info in this post. So remmeber what page it is on.

Anyway here goes:

Finnic Factions (Baltic Pagan)

The Map:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...suomenjako.bmp

From the map:
1) Province name: Vakka-Suomi, Faction: Suoma

2) Province name: Häme, Faction: Häme

3) Province name: Karjala, Faction: Karjala

4) Province name: Kainuu, Faction: Rebel

5) Province name: Inkerinmaa/Ingria, Faction: Rebel

A few points:
- Not sure which of the Western factions should be playable, Suoma or Häme?
- As some you may have noticed, I made some changes so SS's map. According to old tradition (Perimätiedon mukaan:) The lands of the Häme stretched from salt sea to salt sea, from gulf of bothnia to gulf of Finland (suolamerestä suolamereen).

Terrain/Geography of provinces

Vakka-Suomi: Mostly lowland, forested, perhaps coastal?
Häme: Heavily forested, somewhat hilly, some lakes.
Karjala: Heavily forested, a lot of lakes, somewhat hilly.
Kainuu: Lowland, forested, coastal.
Inkerinmaa: Forested, Lowland


Capitals of Provinces:
(marked by the red square)

Vakka-Suomi= Turku

Häme= Kokemäki

Karjala= Käkisalmi

Kainuunmaa= Kainuu

Inkerinmaa= Laatokankaupunki

A few points
- Some Historians believe the Kainuu were more of a hunter organization than a people (or at least were originially so), and so I think it is suitable to have them as rebels. By nature, some historians say, they were much like the Pirkkalaiset later on (except the Pirkka were traders, not hunters).
- Any suggestions for the capital of Kainuu?

Trade goods of Provinces:
Karjala:
Furs (Weasel, Squirrel, Reindeer)
Fish (Salmon)
Reindeer meat
Horses

Häme:
Walrus Tusks (taxed from Lapps and acquired on long hunting trips)
Furs (same as Karelia)
Seal fat

Vakka-Suomi:
Pottery (not very profitable)
Furs (Same as Karelia)

Kainuunmaa
-Furs (same as Karelia)
-Walrus Tusks
-Fish
-Meats

Ingria
-Furs
-Pottery
-Fish


Offices and Titles

Tietäjä of [Province name]:
Loyalty: 1
Piety: 3
Dread: 1
Acumen: 1
Command: 0

Tuomari of [name of province]:
Loyalty: 2
Piety: 1
Dread: 3
Acumen: 1
Command: 0

Sotapäälikkö of [name of Province]
Loyalty: 2
Piety: 0
Dread: 2
Acumen: 1
Command: 3

Varakuningas of [name of Faction]
Loyalty:3
Piety:0
Dread:2
Acumen:2
Command:3


The Finnic and Baltic techtree
(A basic first-draft)

http://www.geocities.com/siidon/FotN/BalticTechTree.xls

Finnic Units

Kuninkaan henkivartio(King's Guard)
-Medium Armor - Swords - Large shields / 80 men
-Morale: Excellent
-Attack: Very good
-Defence: Very good
-Impeteous
-The Elite of Finnic armies
The Finnish Guard wear decent armour, and are medium infantry. They are equipped with large swords and large wooden shields. They have good morale, since they are possibly relatives of the Kuningas, and are in his favour. They followed the kings on their war raids.

Nobles
-Medium Armor - Swords - Large Shilds / 80 men
-Morale: Very good
-Attack: Good
-Defense: Good
-professional, experienced, veterans of raiding parties
-Impeteous
In pre-feudal Baltic and Finnic society, nobles were composed of the wealthy regional strong men and the males of their families. Wielding Swords and large wooden shields, they are a very useful, although a somewhat expensive unit. These men can are reliable, and rarely run.

Footmen
-Light Armor - Swords - Small Shields / 80 men
-Morale: Avarage
-Attack: Good
-Defense: Avarage
-Impeteous
-Fast
Lighter than Finnish nobles, but also faster. Armour consisted only of thick furs and leather. Finnish Infantry are armed with swords and large shields, and they are the middle-class of Finnish society (the largest class). They would serve their leader when called upon, and join the war raids in hope of booty. Reasonable morale.


Heimosoturit(tribesmen)
-Light armour - Spear - roundshield / 100 men
-Morale: Poor
-Impeteous
-Attack: Average
-Defense: poor
-Fast
Light, fast and equipped with spear and shield, and some of them with swords if they could afford them. Finnish tribesmen are no professionals, and if the battle isn’t going their way, they are easy to rout. Finnish tribesmen were slightly poorer than and part of the lower middle-class of Finnish society. Still, they are free men, and join war raids in the hope of booty, and they defend their lands when attacked. Best used for flanking and attacking skirmishers.


Korpisoturit(Wilderland hunters)
-Light armour - bow and axe - small shield / 80 men
-can hide anywhere
-Morale: Average
-Fast
-Attack: Good
-Defense: Average
From the dark inland forests, come the hunters of the wild. Since infancy, they have practiced their hunting skills and they excel in stealth and accuracy. They are also responsible for much of the fur trade, and they trade with the middle-men in coastal settlements.
Armed with bows and axes.


Karjalan kalpamiehet(Karelian kylfings)
-Medium Armor - Swords - Large Shilds / 80 men
-Morale: Very good
-Attack: Good
-Defense: Good
-professional, experienced, veterans of raiding parties
-Impeteous
These mercenaries are armed with swords and large shields. They inhabit the north eastern shores of the Gulf of Finland. They are a reliable medium infantry, and can be trusted to fare well against most other infantry in the heat of battle. The Karelian Kylfings are often associated with the Varangians, since they fought against them and along side them.


Finnish Berserkers
-Medium Armor - battle axes / 60 men
-Morale: excellent
-Attack: Excellent
-Defense: Good
-Impeteous
-Fast
The Finnish Tribes were known for their skills in magic and lore of things unnatural. It was considered bad luck by Vikings to kill a Finn, especially one with magical powers. Many Vikings also went to study and learn from these berserkers, who could work themselves into an unseen frenzy and attack their enemies in a state of fury.
It is hard to control them, and it is wise to simply unleash them.

Karjalan Kirvessoturit(Karelian raiders)
-Medium Armor - Battle axe - Large Shilds / 80 men
-Morale: good
-Attack: Good
-Defense: Average
-Impeteous
Around the turn of the Millennia, Viking raids had decreased on the Finnish shore-line, and the Finnish tribes were becoming more organized in their defence. Soon, it was the Baltic people’s who had their go against the former aggressors, and the Scandinavians were on the defensive for a while. The Karelians, along with other Finnic and Baltic peoples, raided the Vikings. The Karelian raiders are a useful offensive unit, armed with battle-axes and shields. Their main advantages are their speed and their armour-piercing axes.

Keihäsmiehet(Javelin men)
-Light Armor - Javelins and spears - roundshields / 80 men
-Morale: average
-Attack: average
-Defense: poor
-Impeteous
-Fast
The Finnish and Baltic armies were much lighter than those of the Vikings, and employed more unorthodox tactics. They preferred weapons, which could be used in everyday life as tools, and as weapons on the battle field. The Javelins used by the Finns on the battle-field, however, were unique. The Finnish Javelin, the “Ango”, was much like the Roman Pilum, and could be used in similar fashion.
-armed with javelins and spear (like bonnachts in VI)

Warband(I won't change this since it will be availale to all baltic+finnic factions)
-Light armour - Javelins and axes - Large Shilds / 100 men
-Morale: average
-Attack: Good
-Defense: Good
-Impeteous
-Fast
In viking-age Baltic society, tribal warfare and raiding was not uncommon. Raids would be organized under strong leaders, and adventurous men would join these daring expeditions. Armed with Javelins and axes, they form a flexible and formidable unit. Their morale and loyalty is often questionable though, and if the battle turns sour, they might as well turn tail and run.

Karjalan ratsumiehet(Karelian Horsemen)
-Medium Armor - spears - small shields / 40 men
-Morale: good
-Attack: Good
-Defense: poor
-Impeteous
Karelians bread and exported horses far and wide, along the vast network of rivers in the east. Their horses were small and tough, and could handle themselves well in the demanding terrain. The Karelian horsemen were wealthy members of society, and could afford good weapons. Armed with swords and wooden shields, they are ideal for flanking manouvres and pursuing a fleeing enemy.
-units of 40-50
-good morale
-impeteous


Ships:

Small boat
Before roads were common and forests covered most of the land, boats were a very efficient form of transport. They could be used to travel along the cost of the Sea or along the lakes and rivers of the inland regions. They could hold a fairly large crew, and made a good, cheap form of a trading navy.

Uisko
A larger and more capable vessel with both sail and oars. Much like the Viking ships in size and shape. In general, very capable vessels. The Uiskos are well suited for the conditions within the Baltic, but a bit too small for travelling across greater seas.

Agents:

Tietäjä
The tietäjät are wise men who know all the ancient secrets, and the answers to all questions. Their wisdom and guidance kept the individualistic pagan faith of the ancient Baltic-Finns alive, and help to spread it. They are the collective memory of their tribe, and their lore is great indeed.


The Baltic Factions
(Baltic-Pagan)

Map: https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ltianjako2.jpg

A few points about the map:
-The province of Jotvingia may or may not continue outside of the boundaries of this map, I leave it up to you. Jotvingia itself is smaller, but to save space, I included with it some "miscalleneous" Baltic tribes to the south east that border Jotvingia.

-I still need to come up with capitals for most provinces, any help with that would be appreciated

-I let the Curonians keep the whole of the northern shores on the west side of the Gulf of Riga, although it was Livonian territory. Less provinces this way.

Factions and Provinces

Lithuanians (Playable): Lithuania
Prussians (Playable): Prussia
Curonians (Playable): Curland
Latgals (Rebel): Latgallia
Jotvingians (Rebel): Jotvingia
Livonians (Rebel): Livonia
People of Saaremaa: (Playable): Saaremaa + Hiiumaa islands (1 province)
Esths (Rebel): Sakala, Revala

Capitals of Provinces

Lithuania - Daugava

Prussia - Truso

Courland - Seeburg

Latgallia - ?

Jotvingia - ?

Livonia - ?

Saaremaa + Hiiumaa - Kuressaare

Sakala - Tarbatu

Revala - Rafala

Note: Not finished yet as you can see. If anyone can spot any mistakes, tell me.


Geography/Terrain of Provinces:
Lithuania: Mostly flatland, heavily forested
Prussia: Heavily forested, low-to hilly.
Curland: Forested, coastal, Lowland
Latgallia: Forested, somewhat hilly
Jotvingia: Forested, Lowland
Livonia: Forested, coastal, lowland
Saaremaa + Hiiumaa: Coastal, lowland
Sakala: Forested, Somewhat hilly
Revala: Forested, lowland


Titles and Offices

Wiseman (Zitnieki for Baltics) of [Province name]:

Loyalty: 1
Piety: 3
Dread: 1
Acumen: 1
Command: 0

Tiesnesis of [name of province]:
Loyalty: 2
Piety: 1
Dread: 3
Acumen: 1
Command: 0

Kara Virsaitis of [name of Province]
Loyalty: 2
Piety: 0
Dread: 2
Acumen: 1
Command: 3

Kjeenish of [name of Faction]
Loyalty:3
Piety:0
Dread:2
Acumen:2
Command:3

Trade goods

Amber for each and every province, I have to do further research regarding other trade.

Tech Tree
Same basic draft will be used for both Finnic and Baltic Factions

Finnic units of Balticum (for P.o.S, Esths, and Livonians)

Saaremaa Raiders
-Medium Armor - Swords - Large shields / 80 men
-Morale: Good
-Attack: Very good
-Defence: Very good
-Impeteous
-fast
The People of Saaremaa, alongside the Curonians, were known for their viking-style raids across the Baltic. They were capable warriors and merchants, who raided settlements and captured the inhabitants, which were then sold as slaves. Armed with bows and arrows and Swords and small shields, they were a very useful unit on the battle field.


King's Guard
-Medium Armor - Swords - Large shields / 80 men
-Morale: Excellent
-Attack: Very good
-Defence: Very good
-Impeteous
-The Elite of Estonian armies
The King's Guard wear decent armour, and are medium infantry. They are equipped with large swords and large wooden shields. They have good morale, since they come from the richest part of Baltic society and are possibly relatives of the king. They followed the kings on their war raids.

Nobles
-Medium Armor - Swords - Large Shilds / 80 men
-Morale: Very good
-Attack: Good
-Defense: Good
-professional, experienced, veterans of raiding parties
-Impeteous
In pre-feudal Baltic and Finnic society, nobles were composed of the wealthy regional strong men and the males of their families. Wielding Swords and large wooden shields, they are a very useful, although a somewhat expensive unit. These men can are reliable, and rarely run.

Estonian Swordsmen
-medium Armor - Swords - Large shields / 80 men
-Morale: Average
-Attack: good
-Defence: good
-Impeteous
-Fast
Lighter than The King's Guard, but also faster. Armour consisted only of thick furs and leather. Estonian Swordsmen are armed with swords and large shields, and they are the upper middle-class of Estonian society. They would serve their leader when called upon, and join the war raids in hope of booty. Swords were expensive, and so is this unit. Reasonable morale.


Estonian Crossbowmen (only very late in the game)
-Light Armor - Crossbows and daggers - small shields / 60 men
-Morale: Good
-Attack: good
-Defence: good
-Impeteous
-Fast
The Estonians were among the last to be conquered by the Christian Crusaders, and this was largely thanks to their ability to adapt to the new kind of warfare the foreign invaders represented. The Estonians started using the crossbow as part of their weapons arsenal, and Estonian crossbowmen became feared in and around the Baltic for their accuracy and their skills in melee. Armed with skaramasakses, a short type of sword, Estonian crossbowmen can also be used as regular infantry if needed.


Estonian Infantry
-Light Armor - Swords - Large shields / 80 men
-Morale: average
-Attack: Very good
-Defence: Very good
-Impeteous
-fast
Armour consisted only of thick furs and leather. Estonian Infantry are armed with spears and large shields, and they come from the middle-class of Estonian society. Spears were cheap and effective weapons, and also useful in everyday life. This is a relatively reliable and cheap unit.


Livonian Infantry
-Light armour - Spear - large shield / 100 men
-Morale:average
-Impeteous
-Attack: Average
-Defense: poor
-Fast
Light infantry armed with short spears and large shields. The Livonians were on good terms with the Estonian Tribes, and they often fought the Baltic tribes side by side. Reasonable morale. A good addition to any Baltic Army. Later on the Livonian warriors were also used by the German crusaders.


Estonian Tribesmen
-Light armour - Spear - roundshield / 100 men
-Morale: Poor
-Impeteous
-Attack: Average
-Defense: poor
-Fast
Light, fast and equipped with spear and shield, and some of them with swords if they could afford them. Estonian tribesmen are no professionals, and if the battle isn’t going their way, they are easy to rout. Estonian tribesmen were slightly poorer than and part of the lower middle-class of Estonian society. Still, they are free men, and join war raids in the hope of booty, and they defend their lands when attacked. Best used for flanking and attacking skirmishers.


Baltic Horsemen
-Light armour - Spear - roundshield / 40 men
-Morale: average
-Impeteous
-Attack: Average
-Defense: poor
Baltic horses were rare and expensive, and so was Baltic cavalry. Their small horses and their untrained riders made poor cavalry in relation with their central European contemporaries. They were best used for attacking skirmishers and chasing a routing enemy off the field.

Warband(I won't change this since it will be availale to all baltic+finnic factions)
-Light armour - Javelins and axes - Large Shilds / 100 men
-Morale: average
-Attack: Good
-Defense: Good
-Impeteous
-Fast
In viking-age Baltic society, tribal warfare and raiding was not uncommon. Raids would be organized under strong leaders, and adventurous men would join these daring expeditions. Armed with Javelins and axes, they form a flexible and formidable unit. Their morale and loyalty is often questionable though, and if the battle turns sour, they might as well turn tail and run.


Ships:

Small boat
Before roads were common and forests covered most of the land, boats were a very efficient form of transport. They could be used to travel along the cost of the Sea or along the lakes and rivers of the inland regions. They could hold a fairly large crew, and made a good, cheap form of a trading navy.

Uisko
A larger and more capable vessel with both sail and oars. Much like the Viking ships in size and shape. In general, very capable vessels. The Uiskos are well suited for the conditions within the Baltic, but a bit too small for travelling across greater seas.

Agents:

Tietäjä(still trying to work out what it is in Estonian)
The tietäjät are wise men who know all the ancient secrets, and the answers to all questions. Their wisdom and guidance kept the individualistic pagan faith of the ancient Baltic-Finns alive, and help to spread it. They are the collective memory of their tribe, and their lore is great indeed.


Units for "Baltic" Baltic factions

Baltic Horsemen
-Light armour - Spear - roundshield / 40 men
-Morale: average
-Impeteous
-Attack: Average
-Defense: poor
Baltic horses were rare and expensive, and so was Baltic cavalry. Their small horses and their untrained riders made poor cavalry in relation with their central European contemporaries. They were best used for attacking skirmishers and chasing a routing enemy off the field.

Peerkona deeli (sons of Thunder)
-Medium Armor - Swords - Large shields / 80 men
-Morale: Excellent
-Attack: Excellent
-Defence: Very good
-Disciplined
-The Elite of Baltic Armies
These men are the absolute elite of Baltic armies. They are well trained and highly discplined, armed with the very best equipment available. Wielding fearsome swords and large shields, they are best used as shock troops to break through enemy lines. Their religious zeal makes them very brave fighters, who rarely run off the field.


Curonian Raiders
-Medium Armor - Swords - Large shields / 80 men
-Morale: Very good
-Attack: Very good
-Defence: Very good
-Impeteous
-fast
Around the turn of the millennia, The Finnic and Baltic Tribes were able to control the Baltic Sea, and the Curonians in particular had a reputation of being skilled raiders, much like the Vikings. Armed with swords and shields and leather armour, the Curonian Raiders were capable soldiers, and many times did the Vikings meet their match when facing the Curonians warriors and their fleets. These men formed the elite of any offensive Curonian army.


Kings Guard
-Medium Armor - Swords - Large shields / 80 men
-Morale: Excellent
-Attack: Very good
-Defence: Very good
-Impeteous
-The Elite of Baltic armies
The King's Guard wear decent armour, and are medium infantry. They are equipped with Swords and large wooden shields. They have good morale, since they come from the richest part of Baltic society and are possibly relatives of the king. They followed the kings on their war raids.


Curonian Infantry
-Light armour - Spear - large shield / 100 men
-Morale:average
-Impeteous
-Attack: Average
-Defense: Average
-Fast
Lighter than The Kings Guard, but also faster. Armour consisted only of thick furs and leather. Curonian Infantry are armed with spears and large shields, and they are the middle-class of Curonian society (the largest class). They would serve their leader when called upon, and join the war raids in hope of booty. Reasonable morale.


Baltic Tribesmen
-Light armour - Axes - Small shields / 100 men
-Morale: Poor
-Impeteous
-Attack: Average
-Defense: Poor
-Fast
Armed with mainly war cudgels or axes and shields, Baltic Tribesmen form a cheap and fairly useful unit. As a peasant unit, they are not very reliable in the heat of battle, but a good, cheap garrison. Their strength is in numbers and in speed.


Baltic Infantry
-Light armour - Axes - Small shield / 100 men
-Morale:average
-Impeteous
-Attack: Average
-Defense: Average
-Fast
-bonus vs. armour
A relatively reliable infantry unit. Armed with axes and shields, they proved effective against armoured opponents, thanks to their speed and their axes. They are the back bone of many Baltic armies.


Baltic Javelin men
-Light Armor - Javelins and short swords - roundshields / 80 men
-Morale: average
-Attack: average
-Defense: poor
-Impeteous
-Fast
The Finnish and Baltic armies were much lighter than those of the Vikings, and employed more unorthodox tactics. They preferred weapons, which could be used in everyday life as tools, and as weapons on the battle field. The Javelin men were usually hunters, who used their skills on the battle field to harass the enemy, and then use their speed to get away. Although they are armed with short swords, they should be kept away from melee.


Semigallian Crossbow men(very late in the game, at the end of the tech-tree)
-Light Armor - Crossbows and daggers - small shields / 60 men
-Morale: Good
-Attack: good
-Defence: average
-Impeteous
-Fast
A cross bow is a fairly effective weapon, especially against light armour. It’s reload time is longer than that of a traditional bow, but Semigallian crossbow men carried short swords with them, and were fairly effective in melee.


Semigallian spearmen
-medium armour - Spear - large shield / 100 men
-Morale:average
-Impeteous
-Attack: Good
-Defense: Good
-Fast
The Semigallians were a strong tribe in the Baltic during Viking times, and controlled a large area in the inlands. This made them the target for numerous attacks by neighbouring tribes, and also strengthened their military organisation. Their spearmen were of good quality, and fairly cheap. Armed with the traditional Semigallian spear and a large shield, they were a good addition to any Baltic army.

Warband(I won't change this since it will be availale to all baltic+finnic factions)
-Light armour - Javelins and axes - Large Shilds / 100 men
-Morale: average
-Attack: Good
-Defense: Good
-Impeteous
-Fast
In viking-age Baltic society, tribal warfare and raiding was not uncommon. Raids would be organized under strong leaders, and adventurous men would join these daring expeditions. Armed with Javelins and axes, they form a flexible and formidable unit. Their morale and loyalty is often questionable though, and if the battle turns sour, they might as well turn tail and run.


Ships:

Small boat
Before roads were common and forests covered most of the land, boats were a very efficient form of transport. They could be used to travel along the cost of the Sea or along the lakes and rivers of the inland regions. They could hold a fairly large crew, and made a good, cheap form of a trading navy.

Baltic longboat
A larger and more capable vessel with both sail and oars. Much like the Viking ships in size and shape. In general, very capable vessels. The Curonians in particular excelled in the art of shipbuilding, and their ships were up to viking standards.

Agents:

Zitnieki
The Zitnieki are wise men who know all the ancient secrets, and the answers to all questions. Their wisdom and guidance kept the individualistic pagan faith of the ancient Baltic tribes alive, and help to spread it. They are the collective memory of their tribe, and their lore is great indeed.

Woah... That was exhausting.... Anyway, if I missed something, if you have any complaints, suggestions, I'm all ears.

[Sebastian Seth]

Repeates & Ideas:

Finnish Factions:

1) Province name: Vakka-Suomi, Faction: Suoma/Häme

2) Province name: Häme, Faction: Suoma/Häme

3) Province name: Karjala, Faction: Karjala

4) Province name: Kainuu, Faction: Rebel

5) Province name: Inkerinmaa/Ingria, Faction: Rebel

SS: If we make faction name "Häme", it gets transformed to "Hame" in
most systems. And thats not really flattering name (eng. Skirt). Also
the Suoma/Häme faction should control provinces 1 and 2. That
way you don't have to draw west coast to häme province. Because
their land will go from Salt Sea to Sea. Perimätiedon mukaan.

Terrain/Geography of provinces:

Vakka-Suomi: Coastal, Forrests, Lowland (Island Forts?)
Häme: Lakes, Heavily Forested, Little Hilly (Hill Forts)
Karjala: Lakes, Heavily Forested, Little Hilly (Hill Forts)
Kainuu: Coastal, Forested, Lowland (Island Forts?)
Inkerinmaa: Inland, Forested, Lowland (Hill Forts)

SS: The Hill forts should have big rocks around them. So that the
archers could not shoot in to the forts so easy. And the forests should
be around the hill forts to restrict the movement of catabults and
horsemen. Should we try to do these maps?

Should we try to do these maps?

Capitals of Provinces: (marked by the red square)

Vakka-Suomi = Turku

Häme = Kokemäki

Karjala = Käkisalmi

Kainuunmaa = Kainuu

Ingria = Laatokankaupunki

SS: I've think this could be good. And yes definetly rebels. Strong hunter &
pillaging organization with famous axemen (+1 Woodsmen Morale).
The latin world historians seem to mix the kveens with other finnish tribes,
most likely with the Suoma/Häme. But it is likely that they will be part
of Suoma/Häme faction shortly after the game starts.

Trade goods of Provinces:

Karjala:
Furs (Weasel, Squirrel, Reindeer, Moose, Bear)
Fish (Salmon, Pike)
Meat (Reindeer, Moose, Bear)

Häme:
Furs (Weasel, Squirrel, Reindeer, Moose, Bear)
Fish (Salmon, Pike)
Meat (Reindeer, Moose, Bear)
Walrus Tusks (taxed from Lapps and acquired on long hunting trips)
Seal Fat (taxed from Lapps and acquired on long hunting trips)

Vakka-Suomi:
Furs (Weasel, Squirrel, Reindeer, Moose, Bear)
Fish (Salmon, Pike)
Pottery (Clay)

Kainuunmaa:
Furs (Weasel, Squirrel, Reindeer, Moose, Bear)
Fish (Salmon, Pike)
Meat (Reindeer, Moose, Bear)
Walrus Tusks (taxed from Lapps and acquired on long hunting trips)
Seal Fat (taxed from Lapps and acquired on long hunting trips)

Ingria:
Furs (Weasel, Squirrel, Reindeer, Moose, Bear)
Fish (Salmon, Pike)
Pottery (Clay)

Resources of Provinces:

Karjala:
Horses

SS: The horses should be a resource needed to build horse units not a
trade good. I added some fish, furs and meats. And specified the pottery
to clay so the modders can reduce it's profits.

Offices and Titles:

Tietäjä of [province name]:
Loyalty: 1
Piety: 3
Dread: 1
Acumen: 1
Command: 0

Kansantietäjä of [faction name]:
Loyalty: 2
Piety: 3
Dread: 1
Acumen: 2
Command: 0

Tuomari of [name of province]:
Loyalty: 2
Piety: 0
Dread: 2
Acumen: 2
Command: 0

Suur Tuomari [faction name]:
Loyalty: 3
Piety: 0
Dread: 3
Acumen: 2
Command: 0

Heimopäälikkö of [name of province]:
Loyalty: 1
Piety: 0
Dread: 2
Acumen: 1
Command: 2

Sotapäälikkö of [faction name]:
Loyalty: 2
Piety: 0
Dread: 3
Acumen: 1
Command: 3

SS: I was thinkin that we could have two kinds of titles, provincical and
factional. The results above. This of course needs to be fitted in to tech
tree, but what do you think?

Finnic Units:
!Scale: Very Poor, Poor, Avarage, Good, Very Good!

Kuninkaan Henkivartio (King's Guard)
Kuninkaan henkivartio is composed of kings relatives, friends and warriors
hand picked by king himself. They are often veteran warriors from
war raids or strong talented men. Unlike peasantry these men are
devoted to war and fighting and their fighting skills are unmatched.
They wear various kinds of armours and fight with long swords and
wooden shields.

Medium Armour + Sword + Wooden Shield / 80 men
Speciality: NO ROUTING, ELITE

Jalkaväki (Finnish Infantry)
The basic form of organized military in Suoma and Karjala. They are fit
young men from small villages, looking for career in arms. Most of them
aren't as experienced in warfare as the Kuninkaan henkivartio
but they are fast and eager to great extend. Their Armour consisted
only of thick furs and leather and is often made in their home village or passed down from father. They are armed with swords and large shields.
They are could be considered medium infantry, but they really are light
as in finnish forests is not wise to carry lots of weight around.

Light Armour + Swords + Shields / 100 men
Speciality: VERY FAST

SS: How about these mordifications? Ok, I've have some more about the
rest of the units but lets get to that later. But the direction looks very good;
the finns should rely on speed, stamina, raiding, skrimishing and tactics and
not rely on strong defense units. We also need to generalize some units
to fit karelia and Suoma/Häme and baltics. Or mayby make more but use
same graphics for them. The ships and agents are good. And also need to
think what units can be merceneries (warband at first).

Latvian titles:
Kara Virsaitis - Tiesnesis - Kjeeninsh (Latvian)
- Wario posted these earlier.

I can make the unit list to the same exel sheet when I find time. The prod
files of MTW is originaly made as exel sheet so we could get near ready
sheet to inject in beta version (if wanted). all the text files are actualy
made whit exel (tabs, xy-axel format) and then pasted in to txt file.

@Wilpuri
Could the baltics use uisko as well? If possible the uiskos in finland could
get valour bonus from province and that would make the point of
better ships clear.

[wilpuri]

Repeates & Ideas:

SS: If we make faction name "Häme", it gets transformed to "Hame" in
most systems. And thats not really flattering name (eng. Skirt). Also
the Suoma/Häme faction should control provinces 1 and 2. That
way you don't have to draw west coast to häme province. Because
their land will go from Salt Sea to Sea. Perimätiedon mukaan.

I don't think it would be good to have them as the same faction initially, as that would be inaccurate. They were allies, but to have them as the same faction, don't know about that. So if not Häme, do you want to call them the Tavastians then?

Terrain/Geography of provinces:

Vakka-Suomi: Coastal, Forrests, Lowland (Island Forts?)
Häme: Lakes, Heavily Forested, Little Hilly (Hill Forts)
Karjala: Lakes, Heavily Forested, Little Hilly (Hill Forts)
Kainuu: Coastal, Forested, Lowland (Island Forts?)
Inkerinmaa: Inland, Forested, Lowland (Hill Forts)

How do you intend to use island forts??

SS: The Hill forts should have big rocks around them. So that the
archers could not shoot in to the forts so easy. And the forests should
be around the hill forts to restrict the movement of catabults and
horsemen. Should we try to do these maps?

agreed.

SS: The horses should be a resource needed to build horse units not a
trade good. I added some fish, furs and meats. And specified the pottery
to clay so the modders can reduce it's profits.

I like the additions, but I don't think horses should be a resource. Every faction should be able to have horses, as they did in reality. There were horses in viking age Finland + baltics. Also, Karjala traded horses, that's why I think it should be a trade good.

SS: I was thinkin that we could have two kinds of titles, provincical and
factional. The results above. This of course needs to be fitted in to tech
tree, but what do you think?

Agreed, I was thinking of expanding them as well, but those look very nice.

Jalkaväki (Finnish Infantry)
The basic form of organized military in Suoma and Karjala. They are fit
young men from small villages, looking for career in arms. Most of them
aren't as experienced in warfare as the Kuninkaan henkivartio
but they are fast and eager to great extend. Their Armour consisted
only of thick furs and leather and is often made in their home village or passed down from father. They are armed with swords and large shields.
They are could be considered medium infantry, but they really are light
as in finnish forests is not wise to carry lots of weight around.

Light Armour + Swords + Shields / 100 men
Speciality: VERY FAST

SS: How about these mordifications? Ok, I've have some more about the
rest of the units but lets get to that later. But the direction looks very good;
the finns should rely on speed, stamina, raiding, skrimishing and tactics and
not rely on strong defense units. We also need to generalize some units
to fit karelia and Suoma/Häme and baltics. Or mayby make more but use
same graphics for them. The ships and agents are good. And also need to
think what units can be merceneries (warband at first).

Jalkaväki sounds way too modern imo, and I wouldn't mind having it in English. Maybe they could be known as "Kalpamiehet"? Since these guys have swords, they should be pretty elite. Only the wealthy would afford swords which was both a weapon, and very much a symbol of status in finnish society.

Latvian titles:
Kara Virsaitis - Tiesnesis - Kjeeninsh (Latvian)
- Wario posted these earlier.

yes of course, but what are these? Judges, war chiefs, what?

I can make the unit list to the same exel sheet when I find time. The prod
files of MTW is originaly made as exel sheet so we could get near ready
sheet to inject in beta version (if wanted). all the text files are actualy
made whit exel (tabs, xy-axel format) and then pasted in to txt file.

Excellent.

@Wilpuri
Could the baltics use uisko as well? If possible the uiskos in finland could
get valour bonus from province and that would make the point of
better ships clear.

Well the Curonians made excellent ships, better than the Finnic Uiskos used by Estonians and Finns, so I think Baltic/Curonian long boat is better.

[Norseman]

Hey, I'm back

Solid work Wilpuri and SS, and excellent last post!

One thing about the tech-tree. When trying to make tech-trees I have so far tried to make them a bit simple. By this I mean that we don't have the long lines of different "spearmakers", "bowyers" etc. Just the initial building and maybe one more. I have rather based troop recruiting on buildings that reflect the King's influence in a region(like "Kings hall" or "Jarls Homestead").

This means that several basic troop types may be available by making one important building. I think this suits our mod very well, as the Scandinavians, Baltics, Fins and Britons(Celts&Anglo-Saxons) all based their armies on the loyalty of the local warlords. I think "spearmakers" etc. shouldn't be introduced before the faction is at a tech-level where the King was able to raise a more "professional" army(approx. fort level) with loyalty more or less directly to the King.
At least this should suit the Vikings well, but what do you think, especially conserning the other cultures/factions?

I've actually made a mod(it's more or less finished, but has a serious bug) of the original MTW, in which I used this kind of thinking on the Tech-tree. I found this to be of great help to the AI. Instead of the endless "one-type of unit" armies of either peasants, basic spearmen or basic archers, I ended up fighting well balanced armies which also included more modern troops.

[wilpuri]

Hey, I'm back

Solid work Wilpuri and SS, and excellent last post!

One thing about the tech-tree. When trying to make tech-trees I have so far tried to make them a bit simple. By this I mean that we don't have the long lines of different "spearmakers", "bowyers" etc. Just the initial building and maybe one more. I have rather based troop recruiting on buildings that reflect the King's influence in a region(like "Kings hall" or "Jarls Homestead").

This means that several basic troop types may be available by making one important building. I think this suits our mod very well, as the Scandinavians, Baltics, Fins and Britons(Celts&Anglo-Saxons) all based their armies on the loyalty of the local warlords. I think "spearmakers" etc. shouldn't be introduced before the faction is at a tech-level where the King was able to raise a more "professional" army(approx. fort level) with loyalty more or less directly to the King.
At least this should suit the Vikings well, but what do you think, especially conserning the other cultures/factions?

I've actually made a mod(it's more or less finished, but has a serious bug) of the original MTW, in which I used this kind of thinking on the Tech-tree. I found this to be of great help to the AI. Instead of the endless "one-type of unit" armies of either peasants, basic spearmen or basic archers, I ended up fighting well balanced armies which also included more modern troops.

I like the sound of this very much. That way we would also get to building proper armies in the starting phases of the game! Sounds veryvery good to me.

[Sebastian Seth]

@Wilpuri

No Tavastians, lets go with Häme if we must. I was thinking the Suoma
more as common name for the area tribes. Since it comes from same
word as Häme. (ref. earlier posts about the name)

Island forts; Draw the battle map half water half land. raise hill from the
water and place the fort on the hill. make bridge from the hill to
the land part. Add rocks to sides of the fort. And we got a island fort.
Much like Suomenlinna but much smaler.

Ok, Let the horses be trade good, but the access to horse units must
be somehow handicapped for Häme. I understand there wasn't really
cavarly units in Häme, but more work horses.

Jalkaväki sounds way too modern imo, and I wouldn't mind having it in English. Maybe they could be known as "Kalpamiehet"? Since these guys have swords, they should be pretty elite. Only the wealthy would afford swords which was both a weapon, and very much a symbol of status in finnish society.

Yes, you're right again. but i'm not sure if there's enough levels at
finnish swordmen. Perhaps two types;

Draftmen or Footmen
Light Armor - Swords - Small Shields / 80 men
Morale: Avarage
Attack: Good
Defense: Avarage

- drafted, inexperienced, young town boys seeking profession

Kalpamen
Medium Armor - Swords - Large Shilds / 80 men
Morale: Good
Attack: Good
Defense: Good

- professional, experienced, veterans of raiding parties

I forgot what the titles mean, they are posted here before. The tech
tree has changed so i'm not sure they are correct. I'll go find
suomi-eesti-suomi book from library later. (we need one).

Well the Curonians made excellent ships, better than the Finnic Uiskos used by Estonians and Finns, so I think Baltic/Curonian long boat is better.

We'll make it different then.

@Norseman
In this moment I have been thinkin as the units where in four main categories:

1. Peasant Class
- Needs basic buildings like spear maker, bow maker.
- Not very effective generaly.
2. Soldier Class
- Needs Advanced buildings like Swordsmith, Fortified Village, etc
- Medium Effection.
3. Nobility Class
- Needs high end buildings like stone bastion, Throne room, etc
4. Special Units
- Requirements varies, faction specific units.
- Highly effective

Generaly theres 3 levels of buildings, example:
Spearmaker enables units like tribesman & javellinmen (peasant type)
Master Spearmaker enables Spearmen (soldier type)
Spearmakers Guild gives valour bonus to spear units

This is ofcourse raw idea written down, but we could change it. Like Move
Spearmen to Spearmakers Guild, but then it would take 54 years to build
the buildings needed to get spearmen. and that is a guite much. It's
mayby better that there is 3 buildings for each weapon style but the
last one only enables special units and gives valour bonuses. And there
is also a lot of units in baltics that are simply too powerfull to get
from simple swordsmith (Peerikon Deeli, Kings Guards). This is much
like in STW but more castles and less building levels.

Isn't the AI unit buing balanced from the prod files? If you but
various peasant class units to 100, will the AI by all of the
units? Or is there some file that tells AI what kind of army it builds?

[Norseman]

Isn't the AI unit buing balanced from the prod files? If you but
various peasant class units to 100, will the AI by all of the
units? Or is there some file that tells AI what kind of army it builds?

@SS
The problem with the AI and balanced and modern armies in the original MTW comes from how the Tech-trees are set up and the buildprod file works.

Every time the AI is to decide for what building it is to build in a region, it takes the following into account:

1) What's available, of course
2) a "priority number", depending on the AI type(BARBARIAN_RAIDER, CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST...etc.)
3) a combination number, e.g. if you have spearmaker it may increase the chance it will select to build "spearmakers guild", even if another building has the same priority number, like say a bowyer.

When it is to decide what units to train, it takes the following into account:

1) Again; what's available
2) a "priority number", depending on the AI type(BARBARIAN_RAIDER, CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST...etc.)
3) Apparantly there seem to be some other hardcoded features as well, like where a unit gets a valour bonus etc.

So for the AI to make balanced armies, it also has to make the right buildings to do so. The unit-training priority numbers don't matter as long as the AI don't build the right buildings. This is apparantly where the system fails - it doesn't really work without extensive and laborous testing. IMO even CA didn't make it work themselves, just look at all the complaints that has been posted here at the ORG about large AI armies made up of only one type of basic unit.

The problem is even bigger with more advanced units, as the AI hardly ever actually managed to make the correct building combinations.

To my knowledge, the only one who has actually made it work satisfactorly was WesW in his MedMod, but only after a lot of hard work and tedious testing. So instead, from the modders point of view, I for one like Duke John's solution much better: skip the whole tech-tree

This is why I want to make simple tech-trees, where several types of units can be trained by constructing a single building. Now the AI will only have to take the unit-training priority number(UTPNr) into account when deciding what unit to train.

So if e.g. Feudal Knights has UTPNr=30, basic spearmen=40, basic archers=30, you will more likely face an army made up of 3 Fkn, 4 spears and 3 archers(or something like that), instead of 10 spears, as the AI never got around to making the other buildings.

So IMO the game is simply more fun and challenging with an AI that fields balanced armies, even if the tech-tree is a bit simple.

Then the next problem is of course to get the AI to actually understand how to use this balanced army

[Sebastian Seth]

So for the AI to make balanced armies, it also has to make the right buildings to do so. The unit-training priority numbers don't matter as long as the AI don't build the right buildings. This is apparantly where the system fails - it doesn't really work without extensive and laborous testing. IMO even CA didn't make it work themselves, just look at all the complaints that has been posted here at the ORG about large AI armies made up of only one type of basic unit.

The problem is even bigger with more advanced units, as the AI hardly ever actually managed to make the correct building combinations.

We just need to fix the balancing in building prod file. The error is not
consisted and you can simply make it work. It might cause some
headache but it's not hard really just count what number comes
when you sum up all the valuables.

Heres what I found in prod files consearning balancing. You probably
know these but here it goes:

Build prod file:

G. Building conditions- The requirements, first level of balaning (easy one). By using
different level castle in every upgrade building.
J. AI characters building production preferences- The errors of the building balancing is most likely in here. There is
different sheet in the original exel file that makes the balancing
easyer. Generaly in the file the values for upgrades are very high
compared to basic building. If you change the values to be
higher in basic buildings (spearmaker 1000, boyer 990) and
the upgrades to lower (Spearmakers Guild 600, Boyers Guild 590)
The Ai would build them in order spearmaker, boyer, spearmakers guild,
boyers guild.
K. AI building influences for building combos- This could be used for balancing... Castles could have influences of
the same level unit producers. That way the spearmaker & boyer
would get more likely to be build after building that level castle.
The building the AI builds is a building with the highest number,
right? This would rise the numbers to high not only for combo buildings
but also from the balanced army point of view.
R. Tech Level- I'm not sure if the AI uses this and if it uses will it build higher tech
levels first and lower then of via versa.
S. Resources required to be present in region before this building can be built.
- You are allready using this one i believe.

Unit Prod Files:

O. Unit choices (AI)
- The armies are really defined here.
P. Unit Speciality extra building influences
- This wasn't at use. Mayby we could use it. Like but to king units influence
castle, and peasant units influence to build spearmakers & boyers.
Q.Buildings needed to produce this Unit
- Nothing to add to this.
R . Unit Class
- I dont know if this is used

So IMO the game is simply more fun and challenging with an AI that fields balanced armies, even if the tech-tree is a bit simple.

I'm strongly for Good AI, Otherwise you swidish people kick virtual
finnish butt that can't kick back.

Then the next problem is of course to get the AI to actually understand how to use this balanced army

That's impossible, if we are not able to change the battle map engine.
And if we are lets just make new game.

!You might want to use us as beta testers for AI balancing!

@Wilpuri

The translations:
Chieftains House - Law House - Throne Room (preliminary)
Chieftains House - Käräjä House - Throne Room (finnish)
Virsaisha Maaja - Likum Maaja - Tronja istaba (Latvian)

War Chief - Judge - Vice King (preliminary)
Sotapäällikkö - Tuomari - Varakuningas (finnish)
Kara Virsaitis - Tiesnesis - Kjeeninsh (Latvian)

[Norseman]

We just need to fix the balancing in building prod file. The error is not consisted and you can simply make it work. It might cause some
headache but it's not hard really just count what number comes
when you sum up all the valuables.

Ah...yes, but as I am the one who will have to deal with this headache I much prefer a simpler and less time consuming solution. Believe me, I've already tried balancing these things, and it is a very very time consuming effort, that might not even give a satisfactorily result. You must consider all buildings and all parameters in all different combinations, and make them suit a faction "behaviour-profile".

I'm not saying we won't have spearmakers and similar buildings(maybe 2 levels), just that they should be a bit high up on the tech-tree. I think all "tribal warrior" class units should not rely on these kind of buildings to be trained either, both for simplisity and historical accuracy. At least in a viking society each carl and peasant was expected to have weapons, and these were mostly made by himself or by the blacksmith of the village. I sort of expect this to be the case with all armies based on tribal warriors, or am I wrong?

[Sebastian Seth]

Ah...yes, but as I am the one who will have to deal with this headache I much prefer a simpler and less time consuming solution. Believe me, I've already tried balancing these things, and it is a very very time consuming effort, that might not even give a satisfactorily result. You must consider all buildings and all parameters in all different combinations, and make them suit a faction "behaviour-profile".

Well, then there's too much buildings in baltic tech tree allready. Or
mayby not, as the last buildings aren't really troop producters. Theres
just two for spearmen, two for bowmen, two for horsemen and
two for both swordmen and axemen. And then theres level 5 (highest)
buildigs for each giving valour bonus. So all together 8 troop producing
buildigs. But theres not yeat a clear where the berserks and special
units come from. This is simple, yes?

I'm not saying we won't have spearmakers and similar buildings(maybe 2 levels), just that they should be a bit high up on the tech-tree. I think all "tribal warrior" class units should not rely on these kind of buildings to be trained either, both for simplisity and historical accuracy. At least in a viking society each carl and peasant was expected to have weapons, and these were mostly made by himself or by the blacksmith of the village. I sort of expect this to be the case with all armies based on tribal warriors, or am I wrong?

Yes you are correct, the finns had spears and bows for hunting, Axes for
wood cutting and swords for fighting. The finns don't really need
any buildings to produce tribal units and one is enough to produce
military units. The buildings are really needed to measure the
level of organization and not the need of equipment. For example
Spearmaker and Bowmaker. To english these words mean a building and
to finnish these mean people. Spearmakers Guild, again english think
this as a building and to finnish it sounds more like some greedy
secret society. The Spearmaker in baltic tech tree could be more
likely elder person who makes good spears and quides the younger
how to do it. Not only as the spear but how to use it.

And yes finns have weapons and they are very used to use them.
But if you take them as they are they just attack in one or two man
units and die. They need to be told some tactics and collect them
as large units. This is why there's got to be buildings representing
the level of organization.

This is a kind of hard to explane and i'm not sure did it come out
the way I intended. But shortly. Baltic tech tree is about skill level,
not specific building. Well that didn't come out good either, but
if you think the buildings as military organazations like in the army
there can be headquaters and this is refering to building but it
really is a place where officers drink coffey. I'm I making any sense?

On another issue:
I noticed that the attack, defence, charge bonus, etc, is depentend
of weapons, armours, shields, etc. this makes it harder to make
a straight fit sheet from the units. So I'll have to do just a presentation.
(Like the tech tree)

[Norseman]

And yes finns have weapons and they are very used to use them.
But if you take them as they are they just attack in one or two man
units and die. They need to be told some tactics and collect them
as large units. This is why there's got to be buildings representing
the level of organization.

Well, finnish warlords had the ability to gather them in a big bunch and make them charge, just like any viking warlord I guess. And this was pretty much what happened was it not? This level of organization(if one can call it that ) is already represented by the "Jarl's homestead"/"king's Hall" type of buildings.

What I'm suggesting is that the "spearmaker" type of buildings come into play at a level where the King(the Player or AI) would want to raise units that held their loyalty directly to the King and not through a lesser warlord. These units will be much better tactically than the warband units. In the stats you will see this as they will be a tad better, and in addition these units will have more ordered formations, get better rank bonuses(spearmen) etc.

So the question is really at what tech-level would this be for a Finnish/baltic faction?

E.g:
For the Vikings this would be quite historically accurate at the Fort-level I think(considering the forts Fyrkat, Trelleborg etc. in Denmark). Here a Viking king will be able to raise spearmen with proper formation and rank-bonus, light cavalry and archers(although the vikings often used the bow in earlier battles, it was not used in ordered formations recognizable as "units").
All these units should make the infantry heavy viking army more balanced, and more capable at facing cavalry strong armies.

A second level "spearmaker"-type building would then either give a valour bonus or a better unit. In the viking case, this would be the Keep-level, which will be the highest in our mod.

This is a kind of hard to explane and i'm not sure did it come out
the way I intended. But shortly. Baltic tech tree is about skill level,
not specific building. Well that didn't come out good either, but
if you think the buildings as military organazations like in the army
there can be headquaters and this is refering to building but it
really is a place where officers drink coffey. I'm I making any sense?

Not really . Just joking. I think I understand, and I also do think you have a point. However, I also think the gains(better AI, less modding) of making the tech-tree "my way" outweight the disadvantages.

Anyway, it will still take some time before this will actually be implemented, so how about we leave this for now and I continue making the tech-tree and see how it works? If it needs more adjusting, like more buildings, we add them ok?

[Sebastian Seth]

Well, finnish warlords had the ability to gather them in a big bunch and make them charge, just like any viking warlord I guess. And this was pretty much what happened was it not? This level of organization(if one can call it that ) is already represented by the "Jarl's homestead"/"king's Hall" type of buildings.

Yes this is pretty much how it is. However the finns have lots of tribal
level units and they would get strong armies from just one building. And
this is the part i'm worried about. We could just go along with very
simple tech trees and less work. And later make FotN2 Mod with
more complex tech tree (mayby to RTW).

What I'm suggesting is that the "spearmaker" type of buildings come into play at a level where the King(the Player or AI) would want to raise units that held their loyalty directly to the King and not through a lesser warlord. These units will be much better tactically than the warband units. In the stats you will see this as they will be a tad better, and in addition these units will have more ordered formations, get better rank bonuses(spearmen) etc.
So the question is really at what tech-level would this be for a Finnish/baltic faction?

At the moment theres 3 buildings in baltic tech tree. The two that you
just described and one for enabling tribal units. Should I change this now?

For the Vikings this would be quite historically accurate at the Fort-level I think(considering the forts Fyrkat, Trelleborg etc. in Denmark). Here a Viking king will be able to raise spearmen with proper formation and rank-bonus, light cavalry and archers(although the vikings often used the bow in earlier battles, it was not used in ordered formations recognizable as "units").
All these units should make the infantry heavy viking army more balanced, and more capable at facing cavalry strong armies.

A second level "spearmaker"-type building would then either give a valour bonus or a better unit. In the viking case, this would be the Keep-level, which will be the highest in our mod.

This thinking is fully adoptable to baltic tech trees. Altougth the fort
level is really divided to two (Village+Hill Fort and
Fortified Village+Stone Towers) , and the last keep level
stands as one (Stone Bastion+Kings Keep).

Not really . Just joking. I think I understand, and I also do think you have a point. However, I also think the gains(better AI, less modding) of making the tech-tree "my way" outweight the disadvantages.

Anyway, it will still take some time before this will actually be implemented, so how about we leave this for now and I continue making the tech-tree and see how it works? If it needs more adjusting, like more buildings, we add them ok?

I'll have to bend on this. If not for the fact that i'm obstructing the possibility
of "ready mod for december", and the fact that i'm doing it alone, and i'm
not in place to decide on others work burdens. So here after I will not
pursue this issue again. (Excluding all after release fixes and rtw mods)

[wilpuri]

To have a beta version of FotN by Christmas would be an excellent christmas present

[thrashaholic]

Hi all, sorry I haven't posted lately, I've just been incredibly busy starting at college and they're piling the work on thick, I haven't had any spare time to speak of, but it's nice to see that things have been ticking over here though (plenty of discussion about Finland as usual ).

This week I've got a half-term holiday, so I'll try and get the Welsh tech-tree and all that sorted by the end of the week. I've already made a map of all the British provinces, there are less than in VI, but not many less, and the ones that are there are IMO more reflective of the time. I feel many things like the positions and names of castles and ports can be lifted straight from VI, but I have made a few corrections where they were required.

Anyway, if there are no objections, I shaln't post the map yet, I'll put it all in one big bundle once I've finished everything else.

[Norseman]

I've ordered the following books from Osprey:
MAA "Saxon, Viking and Norman", MAA "The Age of Charlemagne", Fortress "Fortifications in Wessex 800-1066" and "Hastings 1066 (Revised Edition)".

Hopefully I'll be able to glean some usefull information from them.

Yes this is pretty much how it is. However the finns have lots of tribal
level units and they would get strong armies from just one building. And
this is the part i'm worried about. We could just go along with very
simple tech trees and less work. And later make FotN2 Mod with
more complex tech tree (mayby to RTW).

Well, everything will be balanced in the end, including the finnish tribal units. Some may be moved to higher tech-levels, as the first 3 castle-levels is really all tribal(for now at least). If that's not enough, we'll play a bit with the stats.

As for making a FotN2 for RTW; that will have to be without me. I've decided that modding takes too much time, and that I won't attempt to learn how to mod Rome. However I of course like the thought...

At the moment theres 3 buildings in baltic tech tree. The two that you
just described and one for enabling tribal units. Should I change this now?

No, don't bother. I think I have what I need to put something together for now. Later, when we see more clearly what we need, we'll fix it.

I'll have to bend on this. If not for the fact that i'm obstructing the possibility
of "ready mod for december", and the fact that i'm doing it alone, and i'm
not in place to decide on others work burdens. So here after I will not
pursue this issue again. (Excluding all after release fixes and rtw mods)

I appreciate your suggestions and effort SS, and I also agree with some of your points regarding the tech-tree. You've done an excellent job together with Wilpuri.

However, if I'm ever going to get this mod finished(and I really want to see it finished) I think we need to aim at simplisity until we get something working.
I also think the AI benefits from this. Duke John said this very well in his newly started Sengoku Jidai RTW mod:

Techtree
Before someone gets the wrong idea. This mod will NOT feature a techtree as we know it from M:TW or R:TW. It will be very simple. Units will not gain valour at higher level buildings and will not gain bonuses from buildings. This is done to take away as many possible advantages over the AI from the player. The AI is never as good as a human, I don't see a reason to help the player further.

I'm not saying the FotN Tech-tree should be quite that simple, but I do agree with his basic point.

[Norseman]

Anyway, if there are no objections, I shaln't post the map yet, I'll put it all in one big bundle once I've finished everything else.

No objections thrashaholic!

To have a beta version of FotN by Christmas would be an excellent christmas present

Indeed it would. I'm afraid it will have to be a very basic one, if I manage to get something finished before christmas. What I'm working on is a temporary adoption of the original VI map, just to see that the tech-tree is working.

[wilpuri]

Hi all, sorry I haven't posted lately, I've just been incredibly busy starting at college and they're piling the work on thick, I haven't had any spare time to speak of, but it's nice to see that things have been ticking over here though (plenty of discussion about Finland as usual ).

Well you can expect that to be kept at a minimum from now on, since the research over the Baltic and Finland has been pretty much summed up. The "summary" the long post by me some posts upwards. Sorry if we've bored you to death, it just that this forum is an excellent place to post the information for everyone to see and make the decisions

Anyway, if there are no objections, I shaln't post the map yet, I'll put it all in one big bundle once I've finished everything else.

Looking froward to it!

[Sebastian Seth]

@Norseman - Ok, here is the latest version of baltic tech tree:

http://www.geocities.com/siidon/FotN/BalticTechTree.xls

It's exel sheet. the offices arent correct but you can do without
them. I'll stop updating it from now on.

@Wilpuri

I tried to draw the finnish battle maps. And here are some things i noticed:

The island forts where very easy to make but the game limits the numbers
of bridges to two or three. So the entrances will probably be small.

The map making program draws trees as objects and there seems to be
some limits in the number of them. So the forrests will not be as thick.

Lakes and rivers are easy to make.

Hill forts are easy to make.

[wilpuri]

@Wilpuri

I tried to draw the finnish battle maps. And here are some things i noticed:

The island forts where very easy to make but the game limits the numbers
of bridges to two or three. So the entrances will probably be small.

The map making program draws trees as objects and there seems to be
some limits in the number of them. So the forrests will not be as thick.

Lakes and rivers are easy to make.

Hill forts are easy to make.

May be we shouldn't use Island forts? My original idea was, that we would have the fort on a hill, which is on small peninsula, and it has a narrow isthmus leading to it, so it can only be approached from one side. I've seen pictures of these, one them being from my book, the hill fort of Pisamalahti. They were great since they would guard the water ways as well as provide natural protection. The Hill is so steep, that it is not scalable from the side of the water. What do you think? Bridges just sound silly, I mean what's the point of having an Island fort and providing easy access via bridge?
Just my thoughts.

EDIT: I found a drawing that conveys the point: http://hyl.edu.hel.fi/sivut/rostela/...linnavuori.JPG