Clans have ruined this game

[Bezalel]

Robin, I don't know what you're talking about. I may be alone, but i've seen 7bear7s hosting more late era than high era. All the other stuff I would have to add has already been said by other people.

[Swoosh So]

Was going to reply but wont 10k rules

[Bezalel]

Also, what's wrong w/ less than 10k games? Why do you want only more florins?

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

There are a couple of features that many players like to find in game, and then players, being in or outside of clans strive to go to what they like.

Personnaly I like;

- fun games with good people; I sure don't like playing with people telling me or anyone else, to shut my mouth, or using other kind of foul language... See what I mean?

- fair games; that's a rather big argument for flattish kind of map. Hills do make a difference. I also go for hills from time to time, as long as they give some chance to get a good game. My favorite map in normal map is hillinland03. And I dislike steppe. Still, having a fair game is important.
Slightly off topic; that's also why I like to try to balance teams, siding with the best players to average the team out.

- challenging games; where I got to use some thinking to try to pull a win.
Let's think about this notion some more; I like it when;
1/ morale matters, and units do not fight till they die all, no matter what (jedi units)
2/ flanking matters, and being able to get one's flank will make a difference
3/ arms and the Rock / Paper/ Scissor dimension of the game matters, when I need to care about match up, and need to have some different units and maximize their use to win.
4/ teamplay matters, and I got to care that my allies are not getting doubled, because, outnumbered they will rout fast.

The florins level can impact drastically whether any of those tactical finesse matter or not.
When you play at 30k, units fight until they die all, whatever happen around them. Flanking is not important. And you can hold a long time at 1v2.
Overall, the lower the florin, the more those factors matter, the happier I am.

At 10k, morale issue are somehow ok without changing the game into a rout festival. The Rock / Paper / Scissor dimension of the game is still very disappointing at that level. But I am not aware that any other level fare better.

Robin, sure, play whatever you want. If you think that 10k is not a good florin level to play with; fine, let me know what other florin level you consider, and how it impacts the various aspects I wrote about above.
You can also point at other aspect I value less, explain me that, this is what you think is fun, and then we'll just have an honest disagreement on what we think is fun.

Good luck, and have fun,

Louis,

[Dionysus9]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Mar. 18 2004,13:37)]I don't see you playing Dion under the conditions that you want the rest of us to play under. Try giving Dion a castle and you attack, and see how much "fun" you have.

Heheh, that would be funny. But I do see some value in playing Robin on his "dreaded 10k steppes." Why?

Well, if he can beat me at "my own game" so to speak (2 out of 3 on 10k steppes), then he has displayed a certain degree of mastery over 10k steppes and, at least in my mind, he is free to criticise those map settings. If, on the other hand, I can beat him at least 2 out of 3 on those maps, then I think it is safe to say he needs to work on his understanding of proper 10k steppe armies and tactics.

So we shall see. It is quite possible that Robin is more skilled at 10k steppes than I am, and that I should be taking his criticism of 10k more seriously. It is also possible I will blow him back to defending 99k castle maps.

Robin and I are working on scheduling the duel now. I'm hoping to have all 3 games played at around 15:30 GMT tomorrow, but it depends on Robin's availability.

Whatever the time we end up battling, stadium seating will be available for the first 6 to sign up Get your tickets now, folks. (4v4 with 6 spectators withdrawing).

[Robin Locksly]

Hehe, yeah an audience would be quite cool.

[Alrowan]

oooooh
can i watch

[Dionysus9]

Ok, Robin and I have finalized our battle time/date:

The 3 1v1 steppes06 10k battles will begin at 15:30 GMT, Friday, March 19th.

Hope to see some spectators

the battles will be between "whakassman" and "|Prophet_Initiate|_Bachus"

[frogbeastegg]

Keep the replays of the battles, then you can distribute them to anyone wanting to watch. I'm sure they could be put up for download somewhere for a few days...

[Nikodil]

Yes, gimme a ticket

If memory serves, steppinland02 has a nice pub where we can warm up.

[Robin Locksly]

The first 6 people to reply saying I want to spectate the game gets a PM from me containing the passowrd for the game.

[Simovek]

I'd like to watch if there are any space still open. 15:30 GMT is 10:30 EST correct? And I assume this is PM, not AM right?

[The Witch-King]

I'd like to reserve a ticket too please. :)

[Vexilles]

hook me up with a ticket. i wanna c this game an may the best bloke win

[Puzz3D]

Quote[/b] (Dionysus9 @ Mar. 18 2004,15:04)]Well, if he can beat me at "my own game" so to speak (2 out of 3 on 10k steppes), then he has displayed a certain degree of mastery over 10k steppes and, at least in my mind, he is free to criticise those map settings. If, on the other hand, I can beat him at least 2 out of 3 on those maps, then I think it is safe to say he needs to work on his understanding of proper 10k steppe armies and tactics.

Dion,

Well, I can tell you he doesn't understand proper 10k armies because I've recently seen one. Now I understand why he wants to play at a higher florin level. It's not easy for someone who is outside a clan to learn army purchase unless they go and analyze the stats, and play a lot of games at that florin level. I wonder how many 10k games Robin has played? A clan only needs one member to analyze unit stats, and then this info is distributed to the clan members, and there will be collaboration on the stat analysis within the clan further refining it combined with pooling of battle experience. Once a standard florin level is set, that standard is analyzed to death, and anyone coming into the game without the same level of analysis is at a disadvantage. So, the clans are a factor in making it hard for ronin players to compete. I think this situation would persist no matter what florin level was chosen as a standard.

Unit and faction imbalance is what causes one army to work better than another. You can't just take anything you like for units because many are outclassed by something more cost effective. The process is one of finding out what works at a particular florin level, and then adjusting your army purchase and game tactics to that. It's the imbalance that robs players of variety. It's the experienced players who drive the game in the direction of what works best, and other players pick up on it. After a while, most players are using highly effective armies and tactics. In the golden age of mtw this was still unknown, so players tried all kinds of things and it was interesting, but those days are gone and you can't get them back. I purposely did not choose the best armies or the best facions in those days because I didn't want to accelerate the process of narrowing the units one could use and still be competitive. I never once used Byz or Spanish in mtw v1.1 except I used Byz on one occasion in a cwc game, and 4 spears was standard for me. How many experienced players do you see using 4 spears at 10k these days? These days I have to get pretty close to the best unit choices to have a chance of success, and the 4 spears had to go not because of the way I play but because of the army choice of my opponents. I'll often still use 2 spears just to get a bit more variety, but it's an inferior army. The more the imbalance the narrower your choices become over time as more and more players become optimized.

Robin can play with me anytime he likes, and I'll help him with 10k games if he wants. We also play CBR mod games, and he might be interested in that. I do occasionally host hilly maps, but I don't host a lot of them. I'll host a hilly map on request. A smallish castle is ok too, but the big ones are just too hard to attack. I can't say I'll go to high florins because it doesn't appeal to me with morale being mostly eliminated from the gameplay.

[Robin Locksly]

I am not a n00b at this game.

Anyway in 20 mins, the duel will start between me and Bachus.

[The Witch-King]

Results:

Round 1: Robin (650 vs 450 kills)Can't remember the faction vs Papacy

Round 2: Dionysus(650 vs 450 kills)Hungarians vs Hungarians

Round 3: Dionysus(800 vs 500 kills) Byz vs Byz

End Result: Dionysus wins 2-1

Good games Robin and Dionysus

[Robin Locksly]

Thanks for posting results.

[Nigel]

Sounds like a close run.

I'd love to see the replays.
Or could someone provide battle reports ?
Written in good sportsmanship and chivalry

[Dionysus9]

Yup it was relatively close. Robin played well. The first battle I took 3 pavs, but he took no missles--so I knew I was in trouble. Also, to make matters worse-- I took 8 cav, only 3 fmaa, a horsearcher general, and a jobaggy.

I knew I would heve to break a flank to win, so I went left hard. Somehow I broke the left, but my right was crushed. I couldn't rally enough to make a go of it. Now I'm thinking I should have played a wussy game of cat and mouse, trying to create mistakes I could exploit with cav. But you know me, thats not my style. I'd rather engage than run around the map.

Second game I was obviously prepared to face a no missle army, but I was aware Robin could be trying to react to my reaction to his no missle army, so I took:

2 pavs
4 fmaa
3 cmaa
4 feudal knights
2 chivkings
1 horsearch gen

Robin again had no missles, and this time I was prepared. Some of Robin's chivsergeants took too long getting to the fight and I won.

Third game we both took byz. I think Robin took 6 byzinf, but I only took 4 and spent the rest on Varangians. The 4-max-tax might have made a difference. This time Robin had 3 pavs and I only had 2, but I still managed to provoke his charge.

The battles were close enough that I can say Robin is a skilled ronin. Also, the games were very very exciting and I thouroughly enjoyed them as did all the spectators.

So... it was fun. Robin did well. The honor of the clans has been defended. And I think that maybe... just maybe...Robin had some great fun on 10k steppes

Oh, and Yuuki-- your last post is 100% right-on. I think my experience with 10k gave me the edge. Fighting with lower florins hones your skills in army selection as well as tactically--you have less to work with so you have to make it stretch. I've been playing at 9k lately and 10k is nice bonus cash. I'm sure it worked the other way for Robin.

Anyway--I had fun and I still love my 10k steppes

[Robin Locksly]

I have gotten to like 10k alot over these last couple of days TBH.

[Dionysus9]

You are a good man, Robin of Locksly. Nice to have met you.

[Puzz3D]

Dion,

My point is not that army choice is more difficult at lower florins, although, it would be for someone who doesn't take unit morale into consideration. It's just different. If I go into a 25k game and take my 10k army with uniformly distributed additional upgrades, that's not going to be optimal. The same is true of someone trying to take their 25k army down to 10k or lower. Also, that 20% tax on more than 4 of one unit type hurts overall army strength more at lower florins.

[Sulla]

:)

One point of advice Robin, if you still want it from me,

Hit f1 at beginning of battle, to see how morale/attack/defense stats are with your units.

Also, if you need any tips (and I dont want to sound arrogant here) just look me up in the Lobby (Kenchi_Sulla). I know a couple of things about army selection



Sulla, (no sarcasm here)

[Gregoshi]

7Bear7Bottom posts the following reply in the Entrance Hall:

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Hello Robin,

I don't remember your name ever joining any of my games, and I host a lot on VI everyday for the Bear's. Bottom do this, Bottom do that, Bottom host a game.

My games are always 90% hills, early or late, and I'm 99.9% of the time attacking with not only my clan m8's, but with total new players with the game. (Even when the odds are far superior for my skills to support everyone).

I think everyone here who has joined my games will agree with what I'm saying and know of the Bear Hunting Server.

I don't mind losing with new people because I like them to contribute to the game and figure out strategy that will work. Most of the time, a new player to a game will ask me before the battle is, "What's the plan?", my cheesy reply is, "don't die." And with a little thought and luck, they amazingly figure out a strata and sometimes we win against good players.

As stated in other post, I like 10k for one simple reason, the exotic troops. Who me? Use exotic troops? Like an all gun army? Never

So I'm here just to set the record straight, the Bear clan likes the challenge of hills, and we also like 15k games in VI, in fact I hosted quite a few like this. And when it comes to Stepps, it is usually a challenge from another clan and we play the challenge on a fair field. And why does my sever fill up so fast? Because the defender is getting the advantage.

Your welcome to come and attack with me anytime, or camp on that big hill I'll give you.

But hey don't just take my word for it, download this replay just played recently where we attacked on a mountain.

http://www.hawk.igs.net/~cgazey/Mountain%20attack.vrp

I won't tell you the outcome because that would just ruin it.

P.S. Note Kuma's straight vertical attack.

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Bottom's original post can be found here.

[The_Emperor]

Oswald has also posted the following reply in the Entrance Hall...

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First I know this is on the wrong thread; I haven't posted here before so I guess that limits me to the Entrance Hall.

Second I am a member of a clan, HM, with a dozen active players in VI. Many of the names here I recognise so hi all.

There is an active thread elsewhere called Clans have ruined game. I disagree. It accuses Bears and RTK particularly. Not Fair.

1> Standard Florin issue: 10k is standard in VI; 15k in MTW. There are good reasons for this. Both standards have been found by gameplay and active discussion to be as balanced as possible.
High Florin games tend to make infantry all powerful.
Low florin games can be dominated by cavalry.

As a matter of interest I do host, and play non standard florin games. Myself I like 2.5k per army 4v4 as a very crazy and funny game.

2> Map issue: 'steppes is boring'. Yes it is if u play it all the time. However the mappack games are increasingly common and worthy of attention. The HM's as a clan will also host hill games; flatinland,desert and mappack games. I have seen both Bears and RTK do the same.

No question that if u are hosting an open vanilla game where all are welcome you will likely host steppes06 high.
Peeps turn up for that game.

In a lobby empty of players u know and play regularly u try hosting a mappack game gl...

3> 'clans ruin game' No sorry wont wash. Clans have made multiplayer a fun place. Imagine if we ONLY had 1v1 tourneys? No fun heh?

I have played in games with players I dont know. Once I made a flank attack and was doupled. My 'ally' sat there...I am sure otheres have similiar story. Thats why we play with peeps we know and trust well... guess we call them clans.. funny that.

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[LadyAnn]

Bottom, keep it up :)

hehee

Annie