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Thread: Byzantium

  1. #91
    Anime Nerd Member Kenshin the vega bound's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    What sort of armys did you use Aetius? I find trying to copy catholic tatics with the Byzantines doesnt quite cut it, but they still do have acess to many interesting, and effective troop types.

    Sometimes I struggle in the start, but as long as you focus on one opponent at a time, knocking the mout quickly you should be ok.

    Even on expert I have done really well.

  2. #92
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Ok I'm dying to know if anyone has tried using gunpowder tatics. I've been able to recreate my success using harbs with other factions but want to see if anyone else has tried it. It's fairly simple as long as you're armored and engage at maximum range. That .05 increase in accuracy that I gave them shouldn't have affected their performance too much. I'm sure you'll find the simplicity of only having to use 3 to 4 unit types to your advantage given the situation in late.


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  3. #93

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenshin the vega bound
    What sort of armys did you use Aetius? I find trying to copy catholic tatics with the Byzantines doesnt quite cut it, but they still do have acess to many interesting, and effective troop types.

    Sometimes I struggle in the start, but as long as you focus on one opponent at a time, knocking the mout quickly you should be ok.

    Even on expert I have done really well.
    Well I found myself using more mercenaries to make up for the shortfalls in the Byzantine military of this period, Italian spearmen, Billmen, Longbowmen even were things I sought out and hired when possible.

    You have to realise that the Byzantine infantry will not stand upto the heavier Catholic foot, they lack the armour and morale to stand firm long, so if you must engage them make sure its to your advantage. That the general has alot of command points and morale boosting virtues to help even things out abit, also make use of cavalry by having them in numbers to flank and rout. If you can upgrade armour it will also help your infantry withstand the onslaught in any case.

    However you shoudnt often find yourself pitted against many Catholic factions, really I only faced Hungary head-on, I was at war with other Catholic factions, but it was rare that they invaded with a full blown late period Catholic army. Then though I tried to make sure I was on the defensive against them.

    I remember an occasion when i played a really tough Byzantine campaign on expert starting in early. I'd had a really rough time, by the high period I was back in the ascendancy and I was overrunning the Levant when I invaded Tripoli which was held by the Sicilians. My army was a top of the line Byzantine army of the high period, however even though I crushed the Sicilians killing over 1800 I lost 850 men, which is alot of casualties for a victorious army. It shows that even though I could beat them, that their armour and attack power could seriously damage my army, attacking a Catholic army is a very dangerous thing as the Byzantines.

  4. #94
    Anime Nerd Member Kenshin the vega bound's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Ban all crusades from crossing your land in late. This way you can practise ag against them. (Heck do it in high even, its a good challange!) I had trouble with those nasty catholics at first. I dont bother with hardly any Byzantine Infranty, I just have a cavary heavy army with loads of missle troops. Even with armour you can still do a lot of damage when you have loads of missles. Knock the general out, and pick the right targets with your cavary, and you should win.

    Attacking is a bit harder I admit, but it can still be done.

    I dont hire mercenrys as I find that boring. The limits of the Byzantine army make the campain more interesting to me.

  5. #95

    Default Re: Byzantium

    As an afterthought, I should state that everything I ever say about the Byzantines is about the Byzantines starting in Late. None of it applies to other eras since you can build a stockpile of Varangians and actually develop provinces to build cool stuff.

  6. #96
    Noli Me Tangere Member SCRIBE's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Ah the Byzantines are 1 of my favourite factions along with the Almohads.
    Both are quite similar historically and almost militarily wise.
    Both deteriorate throughout the medieval periods and their troops will find it hard fighting other factions.
    The Almohads have weak melee troops.
    The Byzantines loss their fighting strength as their armies are quite 'old-fashioned' when it comes to fighting heavily armoured guys.
    But still both factions interest me. Kinda like they are the remnants of the age of antiquity before the Modern Age hits in.
    The Byzantines are basically the Romans, and the Almohads are ancient people as well.

    Being a Byzantine thread, my army right now would consist of a high ranking general with the most advanced armour and/or iron weapons belonging to Byzantine Infantries, Kataphracts, spearmen (they'll still do the job), treb archers, P. Allagions, and the Steppe Heavy Cavalries. Also any mercenaries will fill in the gaps left undefended in the aging Roman armour, most notably the Longbowman, Italian Infantry, and Billmen.
    Speaking of mercenaries, has any1 picked up any Almughavars or any rare mercs?
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  7. #97

    Default Re: Byzantium

    I never run out of the Vargarian Guard as I devote 2 or 3 provinces to producing them non-stop and then attacking everything in my path that dares to even stick a foot on my territory.With decent numbers of these guys who needs heavy calvary,they seem to handle heavy calvary units fine...

  8. #98
    Passionate MTW peasant Member Deus ret.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Quote Originally Posted by oz_wwjd
    I never run out of the Vargarian Guard as I devote 2 or 3 provinces to producing them non-stop and then attacking everything in my path that dares to even stick a foot on my territory.With decent numbers of these guys who needs heavy calvary,they seem to handle heavy calvary units fine...
    Quite right in general, although I found that a juicy charge by some chivalric knights breaks even Varangian backs. So you'll have to put them in the woods for maximum effect, there they'll make mincemeat of those lofty lance-wielders
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  9. #99

    Default Re: Byzantium

    I usually have a few units in reserve,to flank those Clhv Knights,I found if I'm engaging one and 2 more engage one on either flank,the knights drop quickly.I usually do try and put my infantry in woods but sometimes that just isn't possible...

  10. #100
    Anime Nerd Member Kenshin the vega bound's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Heres a hardcore challange. I think it simulates the problems the eastern Romans faced.

    Start in high or late. Expert.

    No Byzantine Infrantry to be trained. All Current Byzntine Infrantry to be disbanded. (Not realistic at all.)

    Only allowed too conquer one province per emperors reign. (No getting your Emperor killed on purpose just so you can Conquer more)

    Your not allowed to attack first except against rebels.

    All crusades are banned from entering roman territory. (Doesnt matter if you got 100 peasants to defend with. You still have to bar them from entering)

    I find this makes the game a lot harder. You basicly need to armour so your spearmen are not totally useless. You can end up in a two front war with the Turks or Hungerians.

  11. #101

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenshin the vega bound
    No Byzantine Infrantry to be trained. All Current Byzntine Infrantry to be disbanded. (Not realistic at all.)
    This is debatable. The equipment, armour shield and sword are all typically Byzantine. The sword is a curved single edged paramerion which is more suited to a Kataphraktos and not an infantry man. Ideally the Byzantine Infantryman (Skutatos), should be armed with a double edged straight Spathion sword and a spear.

  12. #102

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Just a question: I recently decided to start a new campaign on hard,with XL version 3.0 and the egyptians sent a diplomat over to my 3 islands and managed to bribe 2 of them.After a few loyalty uprisings thet sent over reinforcements via ship,which i didnt have any yet as Cont was producing Byz Inf to fend off the serbs and Hungary with.Any tips on how to make it harder for them to bribe said provinces? My governors at the time had about 6 to 7 shields of loyalty..

  13. #103
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Byzantium

    This is not the correct forum for asking questions about a modded version of the game. Faction-strategy related questions can be asked here, however your question is more suited to the Main Hall.

    To answer your question, there is little that can be done against bribery beyond increasing loyalty. Increasing the army size might help, but if the A.I. is bribing it usually means they have money to spare, and I doubt it would be helpful in this situation.
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  14. #104

    Default Re: Byzantium

    I assume I'll want to have ships churned out on a regular basis, as well, to connect with multiple-commodity provinces.

    Any advice? Who to ally with, who to shun, who to backstab? I don't want to conquer the world. I just want to conquer my corner of it. The provinces in the Balkans which start out Orthodox. Along the coast down to Egypt. (Especially Jerusalem and Egypt, though mainly for historical reasons. Any benefit to Jerusalem, aside from the impressive governorship?) I'd like to keep my three islands. I think I'll want to stay away from north of the Black Sea, especially if the Mongols come in. Let them wipe out Novgorod and the Poles

  15. #105
    Member Member Geezer57's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Quote Originally Posted by oz_wwjd View Post
    Any tips on how to make it harder for them to bribe said provinces? My governors at the time had about 6 to 7 shields of loyalty..
    If you have more than one unit per island, don't stack them. The enemy Emissary can only bribe one stack at a time, so if he's faced with multiple individual units, he can only turn a minority to his side. You'll still have loyal forces there when he's done to fend off the traitors.

    It also helps if you have Assassins - they can get rid of pesky enemy agents who get too big for their britches...
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  16. #106
    Member Member Geezer57's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Quote Originally Posted by shovon View Post
    I just want to conquer my corner of it.
    The perfect setup for just about any faction that starts in this area is the "Golden Triangle" (Constantinople, Georgia, Egypt). Take all the provinces between these points, and you'll end up having to defend only the 3 provinces mentioned by name. Georgia and Constantinople have good defensive terrain, Egypt is a desert province, so (with armies built accordingly) your defense is relatively simple and efficient. With a little tech development, lots of income and powerful armies can be yours.

    You'll still need a navy in the eastern Med to cover your coastal/island provinces. A fringe benefit of this is the trade income you can generate. Once the triangle area is yours, turtle for a few decades and develop - the game is probably yours!
    Last edited by Geezer57; 02-20-2009 at 14:16.
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  17. #107

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer57 View Post
    The perfect setup for just about any faction that starts in this area is the "Golden Triangle" (Constantinople, Georgia, Egypt). Take all the provinces between these points, and you'll end up having to defend only the 3 provinces mentioned by name. Georgia and Constantinople have good defensive terrain, Egypt is a desert province, so (with armies built accordingly) your defense is relatively simple and efficient. With a little tech development, lots of income and powerful armies can be yours.

    You'll still need a navy in the eastern Med to cover your coastal/island provinces. A fringe benefit of this is the trade income you can generate. Once the triangle area is yours, turtle for a few decades and develop - the game is probably yours!
    I'm not sure I'd want Constantinople as a frontier - just in case.

    I'd push out two more provinces, Greece and Bulgaria and you still only have a 4 province border but have more time to react if any massive attack comes in the direction of Constantinople.
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  18. #108

    Default Re: Byzantium

    I've always used Bugaria and Serbia as my intial provinces in that area. It usually works ,although I've had some invasions when the AI got lucky with sinking my ships. As to the Byzantine Inf not being able to stand up to the heavier Catholic infantry I got tired to them being unavaliable so i slightly modded my game so they are avaliable in all eras,although they are slighly more expensive to make up for that,or Latin auxilaries work in a pinch..

  19. #109
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Also, keep an eye on the Sicilians and Italians. They're your main potential rivals for naval supremacy in the Mediterranean, and will likely attack your shipping at some point.
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  20. #110

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Indeed. At times I've had them launch an attack on my shipping,followed by a invasion of Greece or Nicea,which can be a pain in the ass to beat off,if you are busy with the egyptians,or a turkish re-surgence,or best of all ,the Mongol Horde.

  21. #111

    Default Re: Byzantium

    In the vanilla early era the Byzantine can get strong fleets together pretty quickly, though at the expense of developing your land armies. I tend to but fleets on the backburner until my border defences are stronger. In my experience it's usually the Egyptians that attack first. Then they do something silly like invading Cyprus with the Sultan... Cyprus, Crete and Rhodes are not worth a fight and I tend to favour ceding them to the rebels or rival factions rather than fighting potentially costly battles for them. It is better to have a few extra units of Byzantine Infantry in Constantinople or Trebizond that maintaining garrisons on the islands.

  22. #112

    Default Re: Byzantium

    I disagree with some of the posters here.
    In the early era start by building watch towers in two of the island provinces. In the other I crank the tax rate down and build a fort. When the fort is finished I build the next bigger fort (Castle?) then a shipyard. Ships and and ports create a lot of wealth and facilitate movement and secure your borders Those island can become cash cows not because they make so much but because you don't have to defend them if you have a navy that keeps your trade routes open. Naples I defend because it is the easiest way to eliminate the Sicilians. If you manage to take Sicily the Sicilians can't normally build any more ships and you can eventually sink their navy.

    The whole plan works like this.
    Turn #1
    Greece: Watch Tower - tax to VH
    Bulgaria: Fort - tax to H
    Constantinople: Stable tax to VH - Setup a que of 5 Byzantine swordsmen
    Nicaea: Watch Tower - Tax to VH
    Trebizond: Watchtower Tax to VH
    Georgia: Watchtower Tax to VH
    Lesser Armenia: Watchtower Tax to VH
    Anatolia: Fort Tax to VH
    Naples: Watchtower Tax to VL
    Crete: Watchtower Tax to L
    Cyprus: Watchtower Tax to L
    Rhodes: Fort tax to VL

    Combine your troops and move as many of the archers and infantry and cavalry into anatolia as you can.

    There are several things you need to be able to build: Heavy Cavalry, Ships, and basic infantry including spearmen and archers as well as Byzantine infantry. To reach those you need to reach the Master Horse Breeder and either the Master Armorer or Master Spearmaker in Constantinople, a swordsmith in Anatolia and a dockyard in Rhodes. You need at least a spearmaker and boyer in Anatolia You also have to develop the abilities to build an army in Naples.

    If you are using auto resolve a very good Byzantine Army looks like
    2X Heavy Cavalry - Kataphraxs or Pronoai Allegion
    4X Byzantine Infantry
    3X Spearmen
    3X Archers

    In Naples you can quickly build an army of
    2X Horse Archers
    7X Spearmen
    3X Town Militia

    Plus you have a Byzantine Infantry and Naptha-Thrower unit already there. If the Sicilians build lots of ships they will have a hard time beating that army if you stay on defense

    The fort in Bulgaria gets you Serbian Spearmen which are a melee unit that isn't very good but that is light years better than peasants. This lets you move Byzantine infantry into Anatolia faster.

    By the time you get to the point where you can build ships you should have a full stack heavy army in both Anatolia and Trebizond.

    You'll have your Emperor and the Varangian guard unit in Constantinople as a reserve to fend off an Italian attack on Greece. You'll be able to build at least spearmen and archers in Anatolia and on your way to building infantry units

    Once you reach this point, move on Rum if the Turks haven't attacked you and crush the Turks
    Last edited by frogbeastegg; 03-12-2009 at 16:11.
    Gray Beard
    Byzantium, Forever and Ever

  23. #113

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Originally posted by Grey Beard
    I disagree with some of the posters here.
    In the early era start by building watch towers in two of the island provinces. In the other I crank the tax rate down and build a fort. When the fort is finished I build the next bigger fort (Castle?) then a shipyard. Ships and and ports create a lot of wealth and facilitate movement and secure your borders Those island can become cash cows not because they make so much but because you don't have to defend them if you have a navy that keeps your trade routes open. Naples I defend because it is the easiest way to eliminate the Sicilians. If you manage to take Sicily the Sicilians can't normally build any more ships and you can eventually sink their navy.

    The whole plan works like this.
    Turn #1
    Greece: Watch Tower - tax to VH
    Bulgaria: Fort - tax to H
    Constantinople: Stable tax to VH - Setup a que of 5 Byzantine swordsmen
    Nicaea: Watch Tower - Tax to VH
    Trebizond: Watchtower Tax to VH
    Georgia: Watchtower Tax to VH
    Lesser Armenia: Watchtower Tax to VH
    Anatolia: Fort Tax to VH
    Naples: Watchtower Tax to VL
    Crete: Watchtower Tax to L
    Cyprus: Watchtower Tax to L
    Rhodes: Fort tax to VL

    Combine your troops and move as many of the archers and infantry and cavalry into anatolia as you can.

    There are several things you need to be able to build: Heavy Cavalry, Ships, and basic infantry including spearmen and archers as well as Byzantine infantry. To reach those you need to reach the Master Horse Breeder and either the Master Armorer or Master Spearmaker in Constantinople, a swordsmith in Anatolia and a dockyard in Rhodes. You need at least a spearmaker and boyer in Anatolia You also have to develop the abilities to build an army in Naples.

    If you are using auto resolve a very good Byzantine Army looks like
    2X Heavy Cavalry - Kataphraxs or Pronoai Allegion
    4X Byzantine Infantry
    3X Spearmen
    3X Archers

    In Naples you can quickly build an army of
    2X Horse Archers
    7X Spearmen
    3X Town Militia

    Plus you have a Byzantine Infantry and Naptha-Thrower unit already there. If the Sicilians build lots of ships they will have a hard time beating that army if you stay on defense

    The fort in Bulgaria gets you Serbian Spearmen which are a melee unit that isn't very good but that is light years better than peasants. This lets you move Byzantine infantry into Anatolia faster.

    By the time you get to the point where you can build ships you should have a full stack heavy army in both Anatolia and Trebizond.

    You'll have your Emperor and the Varangian guard unit in Constantinople as a reserve to fend off an Italian attack on Greece. You'll be able to build at least spearmen and archers in Anatolia and on your way to building infantry units

    Once you reach this point, move on Rum if the Turks haven't attacked you and crush the Turks
    Or instead of doing all that, just move on to Rum with all the forces available in turn 1 from lesser armenia, Trebizond, Anatolia and take it from there

    By 1100AD you should be passing from Jerusalem and by 1125 taken over Hungary. Attack is the best defence.
    Last edited by gollum; 03-17-2009 at 12:26.
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  24. #114

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Yes, blitzing the Turks off the map as either the Byzantine or the Egyptians is a no brainer. Allowing them to surive in order that you can face a decent challenge through the high/late era is the more difficult option.


  25. #115

    Default Re: Byzantium

    As the Byzantines allowing the Turks to survive actually might decrease the challenge in high/late if you play the cards right. If you turtle by taking over Serbia in the process - you dont have to face the Mongols and allow them instead to spread out in the steppes and weaken the Turks/Egyptians.

    If the Egyptians take over the Turks then challenge might rise somewhat but that usually happens well before the high era. The Egyptians then become a true threat and the Byzantine player is forced to take them out by conquering the Levant essentially repeating the first route. This unfortunately doesnt always make the challenge all that much better because of the Egyptian stack composition so modding out peasants and ballistas is always good.

    Another way to make a challenge for the Byzantines comes in editing the starting garrisons in vanilla imho. They have way too many byzantine infantries at the ready.

    As the Egyptians however there is no need to blitz the Turks - time is on the Egyptian side because the second front (Cyrenacia) is weak and not a threat really (while at the same time their lands produce lots of income). Just make up a srtong garisson in Jerusalem and build up until the Turks break the peace/alliance and then take Syria from them.

    However for the Byzantines the second front (the Balkans) is potentially dangerous and also there is the issue of Crusaders and the potential of naval invaders, the Byz homeland is way too much of a cross road.

    Last edited by gollum; 03-23-2009 at 15:36.
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  26. #116

    Default Re: Byzantium

    By the time the Mongols show up I have 15 to 20 full stacks sitting Trebizond waiting for them and 500K in the bank.

    I wait to attack the Turks because it seem very often that when I do I get the Egyptians coming after me as well By the time cross the border I have pile of money rolling in and if I start tajking out the Turks sooner I will lose the battles. I can no longer play the tactical battles even if I want to because my video card is too advanced and it takes a while to get an auto resolve army up to snuff

    Also, you seem to keep a better reputation if you let the Turks attack you.
    Last edited by Gray Beard; 04-27-2009 at 13:30. Reason: added sentence
    Gray Beard
    Byzantium, Forever and Ever

  27. #117
    Member Member ZlOpOgLeDjA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    The greatest unit Byz can get in early is [SPOIL][AVAR NOBLES/SPOIL]!!!
    Only in Moldavia, only in early. Second level - Keep HBreeder+Armourer.
    In fact, they Kataphracts! Much easier to get, maintanance is cheaper.
    Trebizond vs Bulgarian? Bulgarian are better but you need a cidatel for them,
    Trebiynod Archers are available in fort. Genoese Sailors are available in Keep
    but you have to conquer Genoa for them. Genoese and Bulgarian have the same stats
    but Genoese are cheaper to mantain.
    Steppe Heavy and Steppe. Scandinavian units.
    In 1025 you can form an army without any, any Byz unit:
    avar nobles, steppe hvycav, steppe cav, gensailors, huscarles.
    Chep and effective.

    The other issue is high and late.
    You have crap units there. All you can do is to assassin enemy gents.

  28. #118

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Actually when I played BYzantium I slightly modded it using the Gnome editor so I could train the Varangian Guards in all ages,but to compensate for that, I upped the amount it took to train them as well. Also you'll want Arbalesters at some point,around when the horde appear,as it's the best way to stop those Heavy calvary charges.

  29. #119

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Originally posted by Greybeard
    By the time the Mongols show up I have 15 to 20 full stacks sitting Trebizond waiting for them and 500K in the bank.
    By the time the Mongols show up i have 4 stacks in Khazar/Georgia, 4 stacks in Germany and Italy pushing west into France and 4 stacks in Iberia pushing north into France and 50k in the bank.

    Too much turtling.
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