French

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early

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high

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late

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Simon Appleton


Group: Member
Posts: 947
Joined: Oct. 2002
Posted: Oct. 07 2002,08:56

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Just stumbled on a remarkably effective early strategy for France. Previously I've played as England and thought I would try France as it is listed as hard in the early period.

The presence of the English in France and consequent isolation of two provinces (Brittany and Toulouse) is intolerable and ejecting them from the continent the main priority. What complicates it is the strong presence of HRE next to France's two best provinces (rich Flanders and troop building centre Ile De France). The consolation is that in the early game, the English in France are isolated from their home Isles and so are actually very weak (eg they often garrison a province with one or two hobilars). When I noticed this, first time round, I launched a quick blitzkrieg which was remarkably successful - only problem being, next turn HRE invaded Ile de France. Game over.

Second time through, I stumbled on an easy and very effective strategy. Essentially it is a rush strategy predicated on building such a large army you can reconquer the French provinces occupied by England and still be strong enough to deter the Germans.

Here is my building strategy:
Flanders - use this as your cash cow to fund your armies. Despite almost continually building units in 4 provinces, I never saw my gold fall significantly thanks to this. Build up the land to 60%, make a trading post... forget about building non-economic stuff. Put your best general here (you should get a 5star urban militia almost immediately).
Ile De France - you want spearmen and archers from this place (urban militia early on); it is good land, so a 20% upgrade is sensible and getting hobilars is nice but in the end I did not use them to fight. It is the most important place to garrison due to its buildings.
Champagne - upgrade the land a little and get a spearman producing building to add bulk to your HRE deterring main army.
Brittany - build spearman, archers and the odd urban militia; I built an inn but did not need it.
Toulouse - build spearman and a few urban militia; I have built a mine and upgraded the land to 20%.
Early on in Brittany and Toulouse recruit a fair number of peasants to deterr attack and bulk out your forces.
A few watchtowers are nice to monitor the enemies' forces.
Your 3 connected provinces should each have a balanced defence - eg 2-4 spearman, 1-3 archers, 1-2 urban militia, the peasants and ballista's you start with, a royal knight (king and sons) and later maybe a hobilar.

Continually pump out troops in Brittany and Toulouse until you are strong enough to overwhelm the 3 English provinces in one turn. Doing this, I realised that I could invade using forces from just these two provinces plus a smattering (eg the king, the 5 star leader and maybe one or two more) from Flanders and Ile France. This means that the border with German will still be secure. The best defended province will be Aquitane - I sent 3 spears, 3 archers, 2 urban militia and 1 peasant. The enemy included hobilars and a fair amount of worthless peasants so they fell easily before my arrows+spears.
After winning all 3 provinces in one go, you should be able to storm any besieged forts in the next turn. Loyalty doesn't seem to be an issue and the Pope never bothered me.

The door to Wessex is now open and most of France is reunited. You are now in a stronger position than I was when playing England on early. The three ex-English provinces are quite rich agriculturally and will help pay for the large army you raised to liberate them.

I plan on confining England to Northumbria if the Pope allows and then pushing back the HRE - having them in Lorraine is too much of a threat to Ile de France and Flanders. Depending on how the war with HRE goes, I may turn to the Iberian peninular to get some iron and to create a buffer zone around Toulouse, where I plan to build towards chivalric knights. Alternatively or additionally, driving towards Switzerland for their pikemen sounds attractive.

I suspect such a rush strategy will be effective in most early games. It probably makes for a rather dull game, but with the intolerable starting position of France, it is probably excusable.

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starkhorn

Knight

Group: Member
Posts: 102
Joined: Sep. 2002
Posted: Oct. 07 2002,10:02

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Yeah I did something very similar when I played early French.

The only thing that I did differently was the first thing I did with my emi was send it to Wales and bribe that army with the 3 longbow men. They are great but you must protect them as they are the only longbow men that you'll ever get in the game and Wales gives you a great place to attack England. Lower taxes to very low is a must as you'll have a rebellion otherwise.

Then on one turn I invaded and captured Mercia (from Wales with loads of peasants, longbowmen and 1 spearman unit), Wessex (From flanders with spearmen and archers),
Normandy (From Brittany), Anjon (From Ile De France) and Acquitane (from Toulouse).

Normandy and Acquitane was a real tough battle but the AI on normal level retreated from Mercia and Anjon. The English faction survived as I captured the english king and got a 14K ransom for him. Needless to say that I was very happy with that turn.

THe only problem was the pope which meant I had to assault each castle to avoid incurring his wrath.

I left 200 peasants in each of provinces with HRE and he didn't do anything which was also a surprise. It was normal mode so perhaps that was it.......

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Let your manhood be seen by the push of your pike Owen Roe O'Neill at the Battle of Benburb 1646
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Shumeisan

Man at Arms

Group: Member
Posts: 60
Joined: Sep. 2002
Paris, France Posted: Oct. 07 2002,10:43

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I did something very similar excepting that I used Flanders and later Toulouse as my main ships building provinces in order to help my future crusades in Middle-East (and to improve income ). And after having secured Normandy, Anjou and Aquitaine (in 3 turns), I launched many crusades vs Almohads in Spain (having one ready after the previous reached is goal, putting my cursed heirs into, taking some good troops en route (from Germans, Aragones and Spanish), stopping to Egypt. After that I launched crusades to Constantinople which had been conquered by Turcs, I am now trying to secure Tripoli, Chypre and Palestine.
I wanted to avoid a war vs HRE, focusing on a war to free Jerusalem, but when HRE Emperor has been excommunicated in my game, I made a rush on Burgundy and Provence.
(I forgot to say that English turned to rebels after my early rushes and that I used my emissaries to conquer the brittish islands...)

I would like to have only help Spain to free its territory from Almohads but unfortunatly you can't do that in the game using an army (or i didn't realised how to do)
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Yoko Kono

Count

Group: Member
Posts: 294
Joined: May 2001
UK Posted: Oct. 07 2002,16:03

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strted a new game on early, expert as france last night and payed til 7am this morning
i used flanders tolouse and ille de france to produce troops then over whelmed the three provincs with my princs and the 4 and 5 star urban militia u get right away with france
ive since conquered scotland and ireland and have no allied with the spansih and lauched a crusade to portugal to help slow down the almohad war machine and it huge hordes of AUM streaming up the iberian peninsular
right now the HRE, the spanish and the pope are all good freinds with me and i have just over 20k in the bank with a modest trade empire on the go
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insolent1

Duke

Group: Member
Posts: 347
Joined: Aug. 2002
Eire Posted: Oct. 07 2002,21:15

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you can do it in about 5 moves
build forts everywhere
build spearmaker in ille de france & build a milita unit
send all troops except king & ballista to flanders
attack normandy with general from brittany(lower taxes in brittany as this might revolt if they are on very high)
attack anjou with your king & leave ballista in ille de france
end turn
the french will retreat in normandy & anjou & you will capture the army in normandy
move your militia unit from ille de france (lord bouilion if I remember correctly)to flanders
give the general in normandy the dukedom & give the newly produced general the dukedum of ille de france
lower tax rates in normandy & anjou
send pesant from normandy to anjou send a pesant from flanders to normandy & send ballista to anjou
build militia unit in ille de france
end turn
You might have a loyalist revolt in anjou but I had no problems crushing it as it should be small
spearmaker is built so only build spear for a while
build a keep in ille de france
move new militia unit to anjou
end turn
mass troops & use your general in normandy to attack aquitane make sure you have at least 2 spear as there will be holilars
move spear to flanders as the english king will probably attack

This will only work under a certain starting situation - if the english have ranked generals in normandy & anjou it will NOT WORK, you can exit game & restart & you might get the desired effect
it works on all difficulty levels
You will probably find that the english king becomes suicidal against your spear in flanders
The HRE will not attack but the argonese will soon enough

[katank]

I suggest hitting the English on the very first turn.

Use the 5* UM from Brittany and entire Toulouse force to hit Aquitaine and the rest goes to Anjou led by the king.

only the peasant in flanders stays put.

train a UM in Ile-de-France

and queue up towers and then border forts in all provinces except for flanders which goes for inn.

send emissary to try to bribe welsh longbows.

both brit forces retreat

assault castle in Aquitaine and leave enough peasants to maintain loyalty in Anjou and attack Normandy.

move 5* UM hero to Flanders.

next turn move as many troops to Flanders as you can and the Welsh longbws should be bribed.

similarly, hire up as many mercs as you can in flanders and let the 5* lead an invasion into Wessex and try to have the Wales force attack Mercia at the same time.

this allows you to go for the kill and often you can wipe out the Brits without excomm.

then, consolidate and go from there.

Why Anjou and Aquitaine?

Anjou since attacking this and another would cause the forces in the other to be ransomed and it's too difficult to win in all 3 provinces in 1 turn.

Aquitaine since the British hobilar production is more important than that extra star from Normandy.

[Blodrast]

France High:

seems really tough to me; why ? can really only produce troops in Ile-de-France, with other 2 provinces that cannot produce _any_ troops. Your first priority should be to build some inns in these (Normandy, Champagne).
Tough also because you'll inevitably be attacked by the English (very very soon), Germans, and possibly, depending on your luck and strategy, Italians and Aragonese.
You will also have to fight the Egyptians if you want to hold onto Antioch and Tripoli.

General ideas for Antioch and Tripoli: personally, I found that being too greedy and trying to get Edessa (which is also very rich) proved to be too much of a stretch, eventually leading to my being overwhelmed and losing both Antioch and Tripoli. However, when I pumped troops like crazy in both of them, I managed to keep them for over 40 years, without ever being in any serious danger even though the Egpytians would attack me every 2-3 years. A good thing is that if you hold on until about 1233, you're pretty much off the hook, because the Mongols will give them enough trouble and they won't have as many troops to send against you.
However, the hardest part will be well before 1230.
My suggestion is to immediately start pumping units in them, even UM's. This will most likely delay the Egyptians' attacks on you, and this, combined with the fact that your crusade troops that you start with are pretty good (at least compared to what the Egyptians throw at you), should last you long enough for you until you can produce at least Feudal Sergeants (FS), FMAA, and Xbows. that's really all you need, plus a few hobilars.
You should use each of the 3 provinces (Cyprus, Antioch, Tripoli) for building Hobbies, Xbows and UM's in the beginning. Then FS, FMAA.
Also keep in mind when defending that you will get excellent defensive positions both in Antioch and Tripoli. Make them walk all they way to your steep hill, and shatter them with concentrated fire from your archers. At least a few of their units will rout before engaging in melee, and you'll have minimum losses.
Following these lines I caused them huge casualties on Expert.


General ideas for the European part:
this is really tough. Obviously there are several tactics, and I will only give you one suggestion.
Q: What should your objectives be ?
A: Start with what you have. Look at your own situation, and at that of your neighbours. The English and the Germans will attack you rather sooner than later (esp. HRE).
Except for Ile-de-France, your other provinces are crap. Flanders is good because, well, it is Flanders, and it's gonna make you loads of money, but in the beginning it can't build any troops. You have to hold on to these two, no matter what.
That being said, this pretty much excludes a possible strategy aiming towards the rich and iron-offering provinces of Spain and Aragon. Why ? Because you would stretch into a line, practically having borders in each of your provinces, which requires lots of troops in each province, which you simply won't be able to afford.

Instead, look at the good provinces around you:
HRE: Burgundy is very well developed (esp. in terms of troops, which is all you'll need in the beginning; money you should get enoough from Antioch, Tripoli, Flanders and Ile-de-France), so it should be an objective. None of the other provinces that HRE owns is worth the effort of getting (and trying to keep) in the beginning, from several reasons:
- they are poor/undeveloped, right now your position does not allow you for long-term development, you need troops NOW to consolidate your position.
- they are small (Swiss, Tyrolia, Friesland, etc), this means more provinces that require defensive garrisons.

The English: their main province is Wessex. Only Aquitaine is capable to produce some troops, all their other provinces are crap. Moreover, if you struggle to kick them from mainland, you'll have a very hard time, since they will keep bringing reinforcements from Britain, where they produce them unhindered by anything. It will take you many good years and troops to chase them away, and when you have, that will leave you with their 3 continental provinces in shreds (consider yourself lucky if in the process of conquering them (and possibly losing them occasionally to the English back and forth) they can still build any troops in the end), and the English with a smaller army, but with the capability of building a larger one faster than you can in their home provinces, where they had all the time to develop in peace.
Keep in mind that you will at the same time be at war with the HRE, so you will be hard pressed for troops.
Yet another factor that should make your objective even more obvious is the fact that they can't get back troops _from_ mainland to their islands.
So your objective is Wessex. Let them flex their muscles in their 3 continental provinces, get many troops in Flanders from the inn(s) in Normandy and Champagne and from production in Ile-de-France and possibly Flanders itself, and invade Wessex first chance you have. They will have few if any troops (they reinforce their continental positions every chance they get). A few FK will get the job done, with a couple of FMAA. You can of course afterwards get Mercia one or two turns after Wessex, they will most likely retreat further north. That will leave them with practically no production capabilities in Britain, while you have secured a great province (Wessex) which will give you money and quality troops (instantly, minus what got destroyed when you conquered it, ofc), while at the same time cutting their reinforcements lines.

Some of their island provinces may also rebel, being cut from their King, who is on the mainland. This only helps you, of course.
Do not waste your time trying to get Wales, Northumbria or Scotland; Wales has a relatively strong army of rebels, and you don't have troops to spare. Scotland will require you to station a good number of your troops in there for a few years, and you don't have troops to spare.
Also, your situation is already stable and safe in Britain, and you should direct all efforts to make it the same on the continent now.

You will be very stretched for troops (and money, since you'll be using lots of mercs). You should make no economical dev, except for troop buildings.

At this time, if money allows you, you can start pumping out some ships to get some trade income in the North Sea. Most likely you won't afford it though.

Now that Britain is quite secured, your next objective should be acquiring Burgundy. You will have already been attacked by HRE, so you don't risk anything by attacking Burgundy. They won't dare attack IdF or Flanders (you're keeping them well defended, remember ? you lose either of them, and you lost the game in Europe).
Have no fear in letting the HRE get Champagne and Toulouse from you. This will only stretch their already overstretched forces even more, and leave fewer units in each province to defend it, making it easier for you to take it. At the same time, their number of unit-producing provinces will stay constant, but the number of provinces they need to defend will increase, because neither of those 2 provinces is any good at this stage (Toulouse can produce some troops, but not good enough). Anyway, their attacking and taking either or both these provinces will allow you to easily take Burgundy. Once you got it, hold on to it, because it's quite rich and you can produce good troops in it (CS, CMAA, xbows, etc).
This will also allow you to better defend your really important provinces, since if you have a lot of units in there, even if the AI does attack you, it will instantly retreat (decide that they can't win...)

Once you got Burgundy, the HRE's attacks will be quite feeble. Yes, they still have lots of troops, but they need them to defend their provinces, otherwise greedy hyenas like the Aragonese or Italians will steal them. And mostly their troops will not be too good quality, lots of UM and peasant troops.
Even if they do attack you, you should not have any problems fending off their attacks.

Therefore, the obvious next step is to get rid of the English pest, in order to not have to fight on several fronts anymore, and consolidate your strategic position.
You can take your time, most likely however they will attack you, but with the influx of troops coming from Normandy's inn, Flanders and Wessex which is now supplying you with troops, you should be able to defend until you build a large enough force to overwhelm them.

In the meantime, if you want it and can afford it, you can take back Champagne and also get Lorraine. Why ? It reduces your border (the number of border provinces): you'll only have to defend on Flanders, Lorraine, Burgundy and (later on) Toulouse or Provence.

Watch out for the Aragonese, they have stabbed me in the back and broken their alliance all the time...

You might get excommunicated when bashing the last remnants of the English. Ignore it, or deflect it by attacking the insidious Aragonese, who are likely to have less than half your number of provinces, and who will attack you eventually anyway.

By this time you're already a force to be reckoned with; don't overstretch by getting the HRE/Italian provinces in a rush, you won't be able to defend them. Many small provinces is bad, few big provinces is good ;)

well, this should help some, i reckon. good luck.

blodrast

[Lanemerkel1]

I did better than charlemagne and napoleon combined when I played the french on late first I started training all the best troops I could as quick as I could while building fortifications towers and building up my economy then when I felt safe enough to do so I BLITZKREIGED the english slamming Aquitane with my best troops then once the english were off the mainland I bribed the scots started training highland clansmen there while making temporary peace with england by the time my highlanders got up to a 1000 strong I had a good fleet so i sent an army into ireland taking it without a problem then I started training kerns and gallowglasses there once i had 1000 kerns 1000 gallowglasses and 1000 highlanders I swooped northumbria with highlanders wales with kerns and wessex with gallowglasses took those 3 provinces without a problem I sent a new army of 500 newly trained highlanders from scotland sent them to northumbria while i still had 500 gallowglasses and 500 kerns in ireland i sent the gallowglasses to wessex and the kerns to wales then sent the initial invasion force of what was left of those 3000 men and CRUSHED mercia with NO PROBLEMO all the while of this making chivalric sergeants in ile de france,champagne and lorraine then I used the germans own tactics against them blitzing into germany it took a while to finish that up (17 years) then i had enough men in england that the main force of gallowglasses,kerns and highlanders and i sent them to crush denmark a viola it worked soon i had them down in swiss territory crushin the swiss however they had taken heavy losses by then so i backed them up with CMAAs from burgundy i drove the swiss out of switzerland but they had the province north of it so i blitzed it then i renforced the gallowglasses,kerns and highlanders back up to 3000 strength by bringin in newly trained ones from the ireland and scotland then they marched full strength into italian territory runnin them off the main land i then with an army of CMAAs from aquitaine and provence i blitzed the argonese soon they were done for just after i finished the war with argon my king died and my excomm for invading the HRE was over so i launched a crusade to antioch using my fleets line from toulhouse to the holy lands i enforced it with a army of 5500 strong CMAAs then i was in antioch immedietly and the eggys holding it had no chance then launched another crusade with some 3000 Chivalric Knights to tripoli captured it no problem then i sent one for edessa with some 3000 strong gallowglasses,kerns, and highlanders mixed with some knights templar and hobilars edessa was mine 2 years later once that was done i launched one of seismeic proportions to palistine a total of some 7000 strong roman gladiators (i created that unit myself) also some 1000 order foot soldiers and 500 knights templar ended up in the holy lands once my forces in france were rebuilt and for some reason the spanish excommed i invadied spain but this one was hard a 45 year long war with some 12000 casulties against me however i conquered spain and started rebuilding my forces and getting my funds up then i waited a few years until both sides of the golden horde-russian war had been decimated then i blitzed both pleasing the pope so from my holy stronghold in the mid east i built up my forces by training every type of unit i could and hiring turcopole mercenarys then i finished off the eggys and then looked north and crusaded constaninople which had been taken by the turks from there i used the old sayings SURROUND and conquer and DIVIDE and conquer as by taking constaninople i divided the turks holdings in europe from their ones in turkey and i had them surrounded by having a succesful crusade launched to moldavia which they had then i blitzed into a 32 year long war the turks fought hard but i beat them next on the menu BYZANTIUM i gobbled them up in 2 years i just finished a "world war" the catholics ME,the PAPACY,and what was left of ITALY, vs. the excommed HUNGARY,POLAND,and the ARAGONESE in sicily that was the only 6 nations on the map then and thatwar lasted 67 years with me and the italy sunk the argonese and huns at sea while me and the pope split their land masses then me alone crushed the poles i took what was left of that century to rebuild my shattered economy once it was back up and my forces reconstructed turned on rebel provinces everywhere got them and then smashed the italians off the map crushing them with gusto then i wope out the popesta my arquebusiers making him "HOLY" (in other words full of holes) and that ended my campaign in a big VICTORY

[Spartakus]

Lanemerkel1: You know, your post really needs more than 8 commas to be readable, and then some punctuation, before you divide it nice and orderly into several paragraphs.

In the present condition your text is near impossible to read through. I would like to learn about your campaign as the French, they're one of the more interesting factions with such a dramatic starting location, but I don't think anyone can keep at pace with what you're trying to tell us in that veritable waterfall of words.

[Lanemerkel1]

SPARKATUS is this better? i wrote that in a hury so i didn't take the time to make it readable (for some reason i thought no one would read it)

I did better than charlemagne and napoleon combined when I played the french on late, first I started training all the best troops I could as quick as I could while building fortifications towers and building up my economy then when I felt safe enough to do so I BLITZKREIGED the english, slamming Aquitane with my best troops then once the english were off the mainland I bribed the scots started training highland clansmen there while making temporary peace with england, by the time my highlanders got up to a 1000 strong I had a good fleet so i sent an army into ireland taking it without a problem, then I started training kerns and gallowglasses there once i had 1000 kerns 1000 gallowglasses and 1000 highlanders I swooped northumbria with highlanders wales with kerns and wessex with gallowglasses took those 3 provinces without a problem, I sent a new army of 500 newly trained highlanders from scotland sent them to northumbria while i still had 500 gallowglasses and 500 kerns in ireland i sent the gallowglasses to wessex and the kerns to wales, then sent the initial invasion force of what was left of those 3000 men and CRUSHED mercia with NO PROBLEMO, all the while of this making chivalric sergeants in ile de france,champagne and lorraine, then I used the germans own tactics against them blitzing into germany it took a while to finish that up (17 years) then i had enough men in england that the main force of gallowglasses,kerns and highlanders and i sent them to crush denmark a viola it worked! soon i had them down in swiss territory crushin the swiss, however they had taken heavy losses, by then so i backed them up with CMAAs from burgundy, i drove the swiss out of switzerland but they had the province north of it so i blitzed it then i renforced the gallowglasses,kerns and highlanders back up to 3000 strength by bringin in newly trained ones from ireland and scotland, then they marched full strength into italian territory runnin them off the main land i then with an army of CMAAs from aquitaine and provence, i blitzed the argonese soon they were done for just after i finished the war with argon my king died and my excomm for invading the HRE was over, so i launched a crusade to antioch using my fleets line from toulhouse to the holy lands i enforced it with a army of 5500 strong CMAAs, then i was in antioch immedietly and the eggys holding it had no chance then launched another crusade with some 3000 Chivalric Knights, to tripoli captured it no problem, then i sent one for edessa with some 3000 strong gallowglasses,kerns, and highlanders mixed with some knights templar and hobilars, edessa was mine 2 years later once that was done i launched one of seismeic proportions to palistine a total of some 7000 strong roman gladiators, (i created that unit myself) also some 1000 order foot soldiers and 500 knights templar ended up in the holy lands, once my forces in france were rebuilt and for some reason the spanish got excommed, i invaded spain but this one was hard a 45 year long war with some 12000 casulties against me however i conquered spain and started rebuilding my forces, and getting my funds up then i waited a few years until both sides of the golden horde-russian war had been decimated, then i blitzed both pleasing the pope so from my holy stronghold in the mid east i built up my forces by training every type of unit i could and hiring turcopole mercenarys, then i finished off the eggys and then looked north and crusaded constaninople, which had been taken by the turks from there i used the old sayings SURROUND and conquer and DIVIDE and conquer as by taking constaninople i divided the turks holdings in europe from their ones in turkey and i had them surrounded by having a succesful crusade launched to moldavia which they had then i blitzed into a 32 year long war the turks fought hard but i beat them, next on the menu BYZANTIUM i gobbled them up in 2 years. i just finished a "world war" the catholics ME,the PAPACY,and what was left of ITALY, vs. the excommed HUNGARY,POLAND,and the ARAGONESE in sicily, that was the only 6 nations on the map then and that war lasted 67 years with me and the italy sunk the argonese and huns at sea, while me and the pope split their land masses then me alone crushed the poles, i took what was left of that century to rebuild my shattered economy, once it was back up and my forces reconstructed, turned on rebel provinces everywhere got them and then smashed the italians off the map, crushing them with gusto. then i wope out the popesta my arquebusiers making him "HOLY" (in other words full of holes) and that ended my campaign in a big V for VICTORY!!!!

[Don Corleone]

I've been trying to play as the French: Early, Hard, GA lately. I never realized how challenging the French GA were, quite possibly the most fascinating part of the game I've faced so far.

Beyond the normal homelands, conquest and crusades, you've got to: 1) build a citadel in Tripoli by 1200 2) build a cathedral in Ile de France somewhere between 1150 and 1250.

The 2nd one isn't that big a deal, I'd quit playing if I couldn't do that, but still, I like the historically accurate aspect of building Notre Dame to make France the religious capital of Christendom.

The 1st, however, is a bitch. Think about it for a sec. Assume the Eggys (or the Turks for that matter) don't tech up beyond fort in Tripoli (very likely). That means when you conquer it, you'll knock the fort out. In order to build a citadel, you have to spend 4(fort) + 8(keep) + 12(castle) + 16(citadel) = 40 years!!! prior to 1200. That means you must take Tripoli by 1160, preferably with a crusade.

Now, I don't know about all of you, but personally, I never march my crusades across Europe. I've had one too many go kaplooey on the way, and that is disastrous for morale and influence. So I wait until I build a chain of ships from where I want the crusade to start until I've reached where I intend to drop it. This also doesn't give the target faction 15 years to beef the province up while you're slowly chugging along. You've already declared to them where you're headed, and you might have to fight through all sorts of border territories that weaken your crusade to futility on the way. This takes a LONG time and a lot of cash to build all these ships.

It can be done, but even so, you must keep Italy, Byzantium and Sicily happy. If you tick off one of them, you're toast, because they'll start sinking your ships, possibly putting you past that critical 1159 date.

All in all, very, very interesting. I've taken to roleplaying and quit trying to wipe everyone out, just taking what I need. Makes it harder, but more realistic and more fun.

[Boris of Bohemia]

If you ever finish the krak, I'd like to hear how. Seems like you'd need a chain of luck as long as the chain of ships. You'd need there to be a war between Egypt and somebody else, and you'd need the war to go just so... Once, playing Aragon, Antioch revolted fairly early so I bought it. Might have built a citadel, but couldn't hold the place.

[TwinMfg]

EARLY, GA, NORMAL

I hadn't played the Froggies before, and from reading this thread it seems that building the Krak is rather difficult. Therefore, I decided to give it a shot. I know, I'm playing on normal difficulty, but I'm still relatively new to the game.

I did not want to conquer the world, but rather focus on all the GAs. But I felt it necessary to have a strong starting position in Europe. Therefore, I followed Katank's advice and attacked England on turn one. Normandy, Anjou, and Aquitane fell quickly. Wessex was not much tougher. I bribed the Welsh longbowmen soonest, which were ready to attack Mercia along with my forces in Wessex. The pope gave the stop command when I invaded Wessex. Since I'm playing the good catholic, I stormed the fort in Wessex and stopped there. Ah, but Mercia rebelled and the Brits retreated, so I walked into Mercia. The Brits were down to just Northumbria.

While waiting for the 10 yrs to expire, I build defensive armies consisting of 4 spears, 2 UM, 2 archers, and a 1-2 cav (RKs or Hobs). Toulouse, Brittany, and Wessex build toward ships. Flanders is my cash cow. Other provinces build units, and 40% agriculture.

After the 10 yrs are up, Northumbria and Scotland are mine. Still building ships and pushing them directly to Tripoli so I can crusade. Once Toulouse is pumping boats, it builds a chapter house.

A small delay occurred when HRE attacked Flanders- and only Flanders, the fools! I knew I couldn't win the battle and I didn't have enough room in my fort for all my units. So, I fought a retreating battle, raining arrows from 360 archers into their advancing units. I defeated the first wave, but retreated while their reinforcements were deploying. Next turn, I retook Flanders and invaded Freisland, Lorraine, Bugandy, Prov(whatever is next to Toulouse). I now have a nice 4-province eastern border, and never suffered a slowdown in my ship building.

I had ships in the eastern Med just after 1130 AD. I built a crusade in Toulouse and launched it to Tripoli. The Eggys had a keep there, which I suspected would be reduced to a fort once I secured the province. Well, surprise, surprise! They finished a castle the turn I invade. It is reduced to a keep by the time I'm done fighting (in a very tight battle. See the Praise to the camels thread), but that still saves me 12 yrs, and its only around 1137 AD. I immediately launched another crusade at antioch and will soon do the same to Palestine and Edessa, followed by every other Eggy province. Then the only other GA goal is conquest, so the Turks will be next.

[Don Corleone]

Well, I finally finished my GA game as the French. I was less agressive than TwinMFG, I focused on throwing the English off the continent, then sued for peace. They had a civil war and collapsed anyway, so I went ahead and annexed the Brittish Isles, to save them for civilization, of course.

The Italians attacked in 1134, just about the time I got my ships to Sicily. Between this naval struggle, and some unfortunate weather patterns, it took me a little longer to reach the Eastern Med, I arrived in 1134, during the reign of Charles IV. I immediately launched a crusade which was successful. For some reason, this really angered both the HRE and the Spaniards, who attacked me. I got a great battle in Aragon (annexed that in 1124 when I destroyed the Aragonese). I didn't take any Spanish territory, even though they attacked me with an alliance in place. Normally, my role playing has me take two provinces from a backstabbing ally (I take one from a neutral party). Likewise, the HRE were allied, so with them, I did take Burgundy & Provence. They wouldn't listen to reason and kept offerering ceasefires, then breaking them, so I taught them a lesson and took Lorraine as a lesson. That was then end of it, they were good neighbors after that. Once Tripoli is taken, it's a simple matter to build the Krak, it's just a matter of time and proper building queues. Ditto for the Cathedral of Notre Dame.


Anyway, even though I tried very hard to NOT to take very much territory, apparently I took too much. Nobody would ally with me. All in all, I was a little disappointed. It was fun to roleplay the game and keep focused on the GA goals, not conquest, but it could have been a little more exciting and realistic. The lack of steady allies was disappointing.

High period has sucky GA goals. They're all conquest. I'm going to investegate some of the Late ones next, they have some cool ones (Brittish have to establish a monopoly on wool, etc). I'll start a thread in the main hall to discuss the Late GA goals as this won't be focused on just the French.

Au Revoir...

[Don Corleone]

Erh, I'm sorry, naval chain reached the shores of Tripoli and the Crusade were launched in 1144.

[British Mutt + Viking]

I used to play French a lot and I found a unique strategy of trading one space for another. I took out the English provinces. but not to keep the lands, but to eliminate the English as a faction when stage two is done. Stage two, I build up some extra troops, then deconstruct most of the buildings in France for the gold. I mass all, and I do mean all, my troops in Flanders and then invade and crush all of England, including Wales and Scotland. In the meanwhile, the Germans generally go crazy and invade my french lands, but it is ok, for as long as I can hold onto Flanders, I am ok. Now, I convert England into my new "base." This way, I lose the farming revenue of France, but I need only worry about defending Flanders, and then I can building up my trade-links, and so on. Once I bring Ireland under my control, I have all I need to smash the HRE out of France. The idea is simple. I trade rich but hard to defend France for poor but easily defended England. England doesn't have the resources for me to conquer the world, but it does have the resources for me to reclaim France and then the world.
The advantage is protecting your infrastructure, by placing your production centers in England, out of harm's way. There is just enough money in England to fund a reclaimation of France later, and once you secure France, you have all the money you need to conquer the world. You will be able to concentrate on building soldiers and farms, not protecting your production centers. As long as Flanders is in your hands, the door to England is closed, if you fail to reclaim and hold onto France, you can just try again later

[British Mutt + Viking]

The lack of steady allies was disappointing.
Just a note, steady allies were rare in reality, but the issue with the game is that there is no simple "hand-slap" option, in which a battle is fought just to make a point, like "if you put too many troops in this province, Ill destroy them, but thats all." It is all extremes. You are either in total war, completely neutral, or the best of buddies, whereas in reality, you could fight your best ally more often than your enemies and still be friends. What I would like is a raid feature, in which you can attack a province, but in exchange for not being able to "conquer it," you do not become official enemies, your general does not register a defeat for withdrawing after the battle, and if you win, you gain prestige and discourage the target, and if you lose, you lose prestige and the other guy gets gloating rights.
More than once I would like to have been able to "slap the hand" of the French army massing in Flanders threatening to invade Wessex. All I wanted to do was convince the French to not invade my lands, not lose my trade-links, and spend a dozen turns trying to get a cease-fire and re-establish my alliance. The French have far too often been too busy massing 5-6,000 men in Flanders for 50 or more turns just threatening Wessex while the rest of their empire falls apart around them.

[katank]

That's a good idea. More diplomatic options has been a dream for a long time.

As for strategy, I find taking Lorraine to shorten the border.

[British Mutt + Viking]

I agree, TW's only real flaw at this point is that more attention is placed on the fighting side, and the strategy map is neglected pretty badly. I have heard a few of the improvements in RTW are quite good, but they are just that, few in number. Features like handinga province over to allies (or enemies) is something I have been begging for since I first picked up STW, but there are still many more that I feel are really important to the improvement of the game as a whole.
But I am also aware that fighting is what really attracts players, not the diplomacy and such, so we cannot afford to neglect the improvements to fighting as well.
As for France, I think it would help to take Lorraine, but that does guarantee conflict with the HRE from the start, which is risky to say the least. The real key to victory in France is skillful use of "economy of force," in which a player's generalship skills allow them to defeat enemies with only a small number of troops. I am talking about player skill, not stars on a general, though that helps. If you have the skill to take a couple of units of archers and militia or something, and defeat larger armies of enemy, then La Gloire des gens de France is certain. If you can take Lorraine, then with just a couple of units, hold off any attack by the HRE and use the majority of your troops to beat the English out of France, that is a good thing.

[Advo-san]

I used to play French a lot and I found a unique strategy of trading one space for another. I took out the English provinces. but not to keep the lands, but to eliminate the English as a faction when stage two is done. Stage two, I build up some extra troops, then deconstruct most of the buildings in France for the gold. I mass all, and I do mean all, my troops in Flanders and then invade and crush all of England, including Wales and Scotland. In the meanwhile, the Germans generally go crazy and invade my french lands, but it is ok, for as long as I can hold onto Flanders, I am ok. Now, I convert England into my new "base." This way, I lose the farming revenue of France, but I need only worry about defending Flanders, and then I can building up my trade-links, and so on. Once I bring Ireland under my control, I have all I need to smash the HRE out of France. The idea is simple. I trade rich but hard to defend France for poor but easily defended England. England doesn't have the resources for me to conquer the world, but it does have the resources for me to reclaim France and then the world.

Aren't u affraid of re-appearing factions? If the English reemerge and attack your probably poor defended english inland you ll be between a rock and a hardcase imho...Defeat guaranteed...

The french have always been my favorite faction, because Geoffrey de Bouillon (the first 5star general) is my favourite hero.

But my strategy is to ally with the english, garisson flanders and chew down a bit of HRE or Iberia... The continental english provinces are little menace, as long as I keep the way from flanders shut..The english will be annexed but later in the game, after I crusaded, after I reached my frontiers to provence swabia friesland, franconia...

Sometimes I actually haven't fought any cathies, if they r either my allies or busy in other frontiers I go straight for my beloved "goldmines" of tripoly and Antioch and I start shipping to Europe Turkopoles, in order to have a blast with early cathy infantry...

[dgfred]

I like playing the French (mother's family name= LaRoque) I swamp the English
on the continent asap, build up economy and then either slap the HRE or the
Spanish. The Spanish generals are especially tough , so most times
it is the HRE that gets the early, I'll pop the Spaniards later .
Smacking the Germans does open up many other options, but it seems the
other AIs like to get in on the action. I usually just build up afterwards and
sometimes slam into Denmark, who are usually still weak at this time. As soon
as the Alo's distract Spain a little, I'll go after them. I agree with the earlier
post that the Citadel in Tripoli is almost impossible, I have yet to accomplish
that goal .
I love the $ that the French can generate, it is much different than my other
favorite- HRE. I also seem to do well as the Danes, but that is usually bad
news for the HRE too. Viva la France!

[rotorgun]

Hello, I'm new to this thread but would like to ask....

Is anyone still playing the French out there? I need to know that if you miss your first GA of building a citidel in Tripoli by 1200, does this mean you'll probably lose the campaign when playing for "Glorious Achievments"? It is 1173 and I've secured all of historical France except for Burgundy. I'm at war with the Germans, have conqured almost all of England, and bribed the Welsh longbows, but have yet to start my efforts towards a crusade to Tripoli. Is it to late? Should I move on to the next GA?

I'd appreciate any advice.

[The Darkhorn]

Hello, I'm new to this thread but would like to ask....

Is anyone still playing the French out there? I need to know that if you miss your first GA of building a citidel in Tripoli by 1200, does this mean you'll probably lose the campaign when playing for "Glorious Achievments"? It is 1173 and I've secured all of historical France except for Burgundy. I'm at war with the Germans, have conqured almost all of England, and bribed the Welsh longbows, but have yet to start my efforts towards a crusade to Tripoli. Is it to late? Should I move on to the next GA?

I'd appreciate any advice.

It's not too late to get the points for actually making crusades. These can be awarded anytime between now and 1205. However, it's likely way too late to build Karak unless there's already a well developed Antioch that won't get wiped out too bad in the inevitable destruction following capture....and that only if you don't have to take 10 years marching accross Europe. If you captured it next year via sea invasion, but were left with nothing after capture, it would take 40 years to build a citadel from scratch....and that's building NOTHING else, no farm upgrades, no trade, no watchtowers, and no TROOPS, which you will desperately need, especially if you cannot reinforce by sea. In fact, now that I think about it, I believe Karak's points are only available till 1200 (I got screwed once thinking it was 1205 and I had five extra years to build....so in the end I traded points for a pitiful church....spew). You'd have to capture Antioch by 1282 or 1283 (doable), and there MUST be a castle left afterwords. If not, it's too late. Even if you captured next year and were left with a keep, there's not enough time to build a castle then citadel.......just go slaugher them anyway and take out your frustration....Palestine yields the most points for successfully completing the Crusade, but doesn't yield trade like Antioch or Tripoli.

[The Darkhorn]

It's not too late to get the points for actually making crusades. These can be awarded anytime between now and 1205. However, it's likely way too late to build Karak unless there's already a well developed Antioch that won't get wiped out too bad in the inevitable destruction following capture....and that only if you don't have to take 10 years marching accross Europe. If you captured it next year via sea invasion, but were left with nothing after capture, it would take 40 years to build a citadel from scratch....and that's building NOTHING else, no farm upgrades, no trade, no watchtowers, and no TROOPS, which you will desperately need, especially if you cannot reinforce by sea. In fact, now that I think about it, I believe Karak's points are only available till 1200 (I got screwed once thinking it was 1205 and I had five extra years to build....so in the end I traded points for a pitiful church....spew). You'd have to capture Antioch by 1282 or 1283 (doable), and there MUST be a castle left afterwords. If not, it's too late. Even if you captured next year and were left with a keep, there's not enough time to build a castle then citadel.......just go slaugher them anyway and take out your frustration....Palestine yields the most points for successfully completing the Crusade, but doesn't yield trade like Antioch or Tripoli.

Replace Antioch with Tripoli in my post and it will make sense. ...so frustrating to be new and unable to edit!

[rotorgun]

Replace Antioch with Tripoli in my post and it will make sense. ...so frustrating to be new and unable to edit!

Don't fret Darkhorn, you'll be given editing rights soon enough, judging by the evident quality of your advice and the seeming maturity level as well. I'm not exactly sure how these things are decided, but I doubt you'll have too much to worry about. Just keep sending in those posts.

Thanks for your counsel about the "Tripoli" affair. I got so engrossed in the fight for survival that I neglected to look after my first GA assignment. Isn't it a bit early anyhow for such a mission? Historically, the first crusade was sent towards Constantinople at the request of Pope Urban. It's goal was to take back Saracen lands from the Seljuk Turks, such as Antioch and Edessa, ultimately conquering Jeruselam. There was no mention of Tripoli. It was also more of an international effort involving England, France, Germany, and to some degree Italy. I just don't see how that can be achieved in the Game with all the infighting going on.

[Librarian]

Hi all,
because i am currently playing with version 1.0, i would like to ask if other versions (or mods) do actually change the gameplay at all?
Game is French, GA victory, difficulty hard, started early period, now in year 1258. Although i am a bit back at score it doesn't seem very possible that any of the other opponents will survive for long time, Spain was strong but recently lost 4 provinces due to rebels, Germany is almost eliminated from the same reason too. Byzantines look ok too, but have really bad developed provinces at the moment. I have fought with Sicilians and Danish only up to now, apart from rebels, respected other factions Crusades at full, have 3-4 allies all time. No threated from anyone at the moment, unless all together will attack me, a year ago British tried it but they lost a battle of 1050 troops vs 480 of mine:P, and i don't use cheats.
All i mean is, unless AI will cheat or something, do new versions give anything more challenging? or it will go like that up to 1453?
thank you

[lugh]

Historically, the first crusade was sent towards Constantinople at the request of Pope Urban. It's goal was to take back Saracen lands from the Seljuk Turks, such as Antioch and Edessa, ultimately conquering Jeruselam. There was no mention of Tripoli. It was also more of an international effort involving England, France, Germany, and to some degree Italy. I just don't see how that can be achieved in the Game with all the infighting going on.

Tripoli was captured only about 2 years after Jerusalaem. The Krak des Chevaliers wasn't in the city either, IIRC it overlooked the major trade route through the Principality. It was one of the few fortresses that was never cpatured by Saladin I think.
I thought the First Crusade was mainly French with a large contingent of Sicilians? The fighters anyway. The two peasants that were slaughtered in Anatolia had a lot of Germans I know.

@ Librarian the game cheats allright. As you gain more territory, the AI grows increasingly hostile and you suffer lowered happiness and revolts become quite common.

Just to add something to the tactics aspect. This is how I go about the crusades.
In my most recent French campaign, I've stopped advancing beyond modern France's borders, sort of. So as far as the Iberian bottleneck and only taking possesion of the French-sounding provinces in the east. All the while, buyild a powerful navy and forge your way to the Holy Lands, eliminating Sicilian naval power along the way if you can.
Now depending on the Egyptian disposition, you're going to need a very large army to take and hold all four crusade goals. Go for Tripoli by at least 1145 to give you breathing space in which to build the Krak des Chevaliers. I took a single 6ooo man army of all high quality troops as the Eggies invariably block your sea route so you won't be getting reinforcements. In the 3 other target provinces, concentrate on inns and farming rather than fortifications. You're going to be under attack an awful lot and the forts just aren't cost effective, they get interupted and you leech money quickly. Between them, the inns and increased farming ought to let you supplement your crusaders with mercs, the inns should be very busy considering the location.

After that, you need to start waging naval war in the region, it'll be expensive but try and eliminate all the major non-Catholic naval powers and the Sicilians. Outremer is very susceptible to big dips in loyalty every time the sea lanes are disrupted.

[Librarian]

Lugh, t
hanks for your response, although it seems that u didn't rembemer in which year i am right now, or should i say yesterday:) Well, i was in1258, i have passed the Krak achievment (didn't bother at all) and I just completed the Ile de France one.
In my yesterday's game i went on 20 more years, English my only enemy, attacked me strongly but i threw them out of Europe, they only have 4 provinces now, Danish attacked my Sweden too, took it back, pity I lost some valuable buildings.
As far as i can see, your game seems very different, and that's logical, otherwise it would be too boring. But my main problem was too find out if newer versions (patches etc) are a bit more challenging. You see in the year 1277 or so, i never had serious problem and i am curious cause French supposed to be hard faction+ hard difficulty = I expected to struggle:)
In other words, I have around 10 provinces, enemy is only English, most of the other nations are really busy with their wars among them, there are around 10 rebelled provinces in the 70% of the map that i can see and the GA score is balanced among 4-5 factions included mine, which apparently increasing all the time. I cannot see any possibility of losing this game unless i will have 5-6 enemies at the same time!

[lugh]

The crusade bit was just general info, added for anyone new to the faction really.

The patches mainly add bug fixes and tweak the AI a little, nothing dramatic.
For a more signifigant challenge you might want to try the full mods. BKBs Supermod, VikingHordes XL Mod and Wes' Medmod are the three major ones that keep to the Medieval setting. They all involve major changes to factions, untis and the campaign map AI. Have a look at the respective threads in the modding dojo for more.

If you have only 10 provinces, then that may be part of the problem. AI aggression is at least partially linked to the size of your Empire, it's most noticeable when you conquer 60% of the map but I think it may be a scaleable factor.
You could just wage war of your own accord rather than waiting for the AI to see you as a threat.
I never understood why the French were ranked as hard difficulty. In the very first years you can be crushed by an aggressive combination of England and the HRE/Spain, but once you've managed the first few decades and expanded troop production a little, the precariousness is gone. I find them a pretty easy faction, good potential bottlenecked borders and an acceptable troop roster.

Try the HRE, they're quite a bit more challenging I found.

[rotorgun]

I thought the First Crusade was mainly French with a large contingent of Sicilians? The fighters anyway. The two peasants that were slaughtered in Anatolia had a lot of Germans I know.

As I discovered from further research in response to your post, it was, although largely a French dominated venture, an international effort. I was incorrect about the Germans however. I quote from an article found at www.medievalcrusades.com entitled Medieval Crusades The Church and the Crusades:

At this point, we need a list of players. Many went along, but only a few are worth remembering. It was an international group, with members from France, Italy and England. From France, we have Hugh the (not so) Great, Count of Vermandois, brother of the French King of Northern and Central France, and a man of little character with no other importance to our story. With him were Godfrey, Baldwin and Eustace of Bouillon, sons of the Duke of Lower Lorraine-descended through their mother from Charlemagne-along with their cousin, Baldwin Le Bourg. Also from France, we have Raymond IV of Saint Gilles, Count of Toulouse, who had already fought the Moors in Spain. His mother was a princess of Barcelona. He was the first to "take the Cross".

From England, we have Robert, Duke of Normandy, son of William the Conquerer. From Italy, we have Marcus Bohemond, Prince of Toranto, son of Robert Guiscard, a Norman who had not fallen too far from his barbarian tree, and also his nephew Tancred.

There was also a disorganized mob of pilgrims, preists, and peasants that rampaged through Europe under one Peter the Monk, from France. They slaughtered many jews on their way to the Holy land, stealing their wealth to help finance the "pilgrimage". They were the ones you speak of. I'm not sure about the Germans though. I'll have to do a bit more searching.

I hope you don't mind the "lecture". I thought you might be interested in any case. You should check out the website I mentioned. It's a great site to begin a study of this fascinating period of history.

Have a nice day!
Rotogun

[lugh]

Not Saxon-English, it was French-Normans who's liege was the Kinf of England. Meh, I'm going to say Normans from France, Sicily and Italy and be done with it!
You could argue that Godfrey was German not ethnically though, he held lands in Lotharingia and was beholden to the HRE, not Philip I.