Excommunication

[Lacker]

Hey all, just a few questions on excommunication before I bring war against the French in Tolouse.

1.) I know you get one warning before you are excommed... Is that per year or per event? Example, If I send my troops into Flanders and Tolouse in ONE year to I get ONE warning for that or will I be excommed?

2.) I've noticed if they flee the province you get one warning to give the land back but if you don't do so it's no big deal, whereas if they are holed up inside the keep or whatever and you siege you will be excommed in the next year if they take losses.....is that true?

3.) Will the AI be excommed after two warnings? i know you can't see their warnings but if I incite the French to attack 2 provinces will they be excommed for their actions or do they get more leniency?

4.) Finally, aside from some misfortune befalling the Pope, is there any way to be recommunicated?

Thanks in advance and happy conquest

A

[Leo]

Quote[/b] ]
1.) I know you get one warning before you are excommed... Is that per year or per event? Example, If I send my troops into Flanders and Tolouse in ONE year to I get ONE warning for that or will I be excommed?

It's one warning for the year, no matter how many provinces you attack

Quote[/b] ]
2.) I've noticed if they flee the province you get one warning to give the land back but if you don't do so it's no big deal, whereas if they are holed up inside the keep or whatever and you siege you will be excommed in the next year if they take losses.....is that true?

You have two years to either leave the province or make it completely your own (meaning storming the castle)

Quote[/b] ]
4.) Finally, aside from some misfortune befalling the Pope, is there any way to be recommunicated?

Your king can die, the heir won't be excommunicated.

I'm sure about 1.) and 4.), pretty sure about 2.), as to 3.) I think it's the same for the computer as it is for you but I have never tested it.

[Lacker]

Are you sure about one warning per year?

I've been warned before for agression against one province, then the keep rallied in a seperate province and the result was me being excommunicated..... I hate to deal with the revolts and will avoid doing so if necessary

A

[TinCow]

Yes, it is one per year. You only get a warning though if you have twice (or more) the number of provinces as the nation you are attacking. If you have less than that, there will be no warning at all until you achieve that ratio. This usually means (at least in the beginning of the game) that you can take a big chunk of your first opponent before you get the warning.

If you know you're going to get the warning, it's best to plan your attacks to achieve your goals in two turns. Make sure you invade all provinces you want to take at the same time. Then the very next turn, storm any castles which hold out. This can be a bit rough on your armies, but it guarantees you won't get excommunicated.

[nick_maxell]

Quote[/b] (Lacker @ April 12 2004,14:12)]Hey all, just a few questions on excommunication before I bring war against the French in Tolouse.

1.) I know you get one warning before you are excommed... Is that per year or per event? Example, If I send my troops into Flanders and Tolouse in ONE year to I get ONE warning for that or will I be excommed?

2.) I've noticed if they flee the province you get one warning to give the land back but if you don't do so it's no big deal, whereas if they are holed up inside the keep or whatever and you siege you will be excommed in the next year if they take losses.....is that true?

3.) Will the AI be excommed after two warnings? i know you can't see their warnings but if I incite the French to attack 2 provinces will they be excommed for their actions or do they get more leniency?

4.) Finally, aside from some misfortune befalling the Pope, is there any way to be recommunicated?

Thanks in advance and happy conquest

A

1 and 2 are already answered so
3:)
Both you and the AI will get a warning only if a neighbour smaller than the agressor is attacked (thats why the danes are never excommed when attacking the HRE) - the french get usually excommed when England gets small, but not before. If you get attacked, do a province count to see if your opponent riskes a warning or excom. It seems to me that the pope sides often with the AI if the count is close - but just unconfirmed observation.

4:) not only the pope also if your king dies you are rid of excom - good idea to delay attacks where you might get excommed until your king is around 60, or if you can afford to send him to a glorious death the next turn (nice way if he has bad vices and you win a province ;)




nick

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Lacker @ April 12 2004,14:12)]If I send my troops into Flanders and Tolouse in ONE year to I get ONE warning for that or will I be excommed?

You get a warning. Number of provinces don't matter. This is why it's always a good idea to invade every province at once, if possible, and finish the enemy faction off.

Quote[/b] ].... if they are holed up inside the keep or whatever and you siege you will be excommed in the next year ...

The province has to become yours, including the fort.

Invade a province. Get a warning. Storm the castle and win. Avoid excommunication. Sit around in siege, and you get excommunicated.

All this assumes you get a warning at all. See next reply.

Quote[/b] ] Will the AI be excommed after two warnings? (etc.)

This is a thorny question. It depends on who's bigger and who's picking on who.

For instance, if the French are a much bigger empire than you, you might be able to attack and go for quite a while without even getting a warning.

If you are bigger than the French, however, you will probably get a warning right away.

Basically, getting the other faction excommunicated first can be pulled off, but it's costly and risky.

Quote[/b] ]... aside from some misfortune befalling the Pope, is there any way to be recommunicated

Nope. The pope or your ruler has to die, or you or some other faction can invade and conquer the Papacy's territory, automatically creating a puppet Pope. However, a real Pope can and probably will rebel and have a large army behind him. If you're the invader and try to defend yourself, he'll excommunicate you.

On the rare occasions I play Catholics (why put up with all this bother?) I always keep an eye on the Pope's territory. If somebody else sets up a puppet Pope, grab as much land as you can. A puppet pope won't excommunicate you.

[katank]

I wouldn't worry about it much.

2 reasons:

1) my assasins make short work of dastardly pope and I'm back in the church in a year or two.

2) before I tech to assasins, it's early rushing and no one has crusading capabilities so it doesn't matter much how much the pope screams his head off.

BTW, I seem to get papal warnings with cash deliveries all the time. I actually like this.

[son of spam]

Is everyone sure about 2).? In my german game I've stormed all the castles in a war against the italians...but managed to get excommed anyway because they are still fighting me. I think you have to make peace *and* withdraw from enemy provs.

[Don Corleone]

I'm pretty sure you don't need to make peace. In fact, I've found it's pretty damn hard to get the AI to accept a ceasefire, even when it's facing crippling odds. While I respect it, it can be kinda annoying because any allies he has will almost certainly cancel alliances with you.

The pope excommuniates for 'aggressive' activities against 'weaker' opponents. If you invade the province of a fellow Catholic, you stand the chance of being warned. I think there's a bit of a weighted probability built into it. Why do I say that? I almost always play as the Italians. Just to teach myself to manage money better (Italians tend to be fabulously wealthy) I started out as the French. Yes, after about 60 years, they get pretty rich themselves, but in the beginning, it's a lot of okay, which province gets an improvement this turn.... Anyway, the French are the Pope's favorites. Don't know how or why, since most of the Church leadership are actually Italian, but that's the way it is. I had to have to have a significant advantage to get the warning (I think it was beyond 2:1). Now, what are agressive actions: 1) invading a province 2) occupying a province to lay siege to the castle 3) starting a naval battle. What's not aggressive? Amazingly, executing a rival's agents/royalty/generals. I killed all 4 of the princesses and both of the princes of the Danish royal family. As soon as the Danish king died, death and disorder. Now, the Danes got pretty pissed at me, but the pope didn't seem to mind how bloodthirsty I was.

Now, I bet you're saying but I wasn't engaged in an aggressive activity when I got excommunicated. Well, that stems from 2 things that are probably working against you. First, the pope warns/excommunicates/runs up your credit card/ et. al. at the very beginning of the turn. Whether or not the castle falls comes later. Also, is the enemy sallying the province? It's been my experience that a lot of times, say 60%, that actually causes the clock on the castle's supplies to restart (which would make sense, they divert you and wheel some wagons in through the gates while you're occupied).

Not sure if that helps, but I hope it did. For the record, I don't think the pope EVER excommunicates somebody for attacking you, even if you are 1/5 their size. I believe the pope only excommunicates AI factions for acts against another AI catholic faction. Finally, if your king is a wanker, and with the french, a lot of times they are, go ahead and assinate him, especially if you have a decent heir (if the oldest heir sucks, get him first).

[Don Corleone]

Actually, my original intent brought up a good question I wanted to ask. Okay, either Egypt or Byzantium are richest at the very beginning, it's easy to get Italy to be rich pretty quickly. On average, who's the poorest? Danes and Aragon don't count, has to be somebody who starts w/ at least 3 provinces.... I want to push my 'lesson' building a little further. If possible, I'd like to keep playing Catholic factions. I actually really like crusades (I know, I'm weird like that).

[Leo]

I would say that the Danes do start with three provinces as they get sweden in turn 1 and norway in turn 4 (maybe 5).

Apart from that I would go with the HRE. Sure they may be big but in the beginning that means a lot of money needed to build up. That's if you, like me, likes the build first-strike later approach to the game.

[squippy]

Yeah the Germans can go into the red VERY easily. The economy is very tight at start. Also they start with relatively little sea access so its an effort to get trade going. But they are sitting on rich lands and the tide can be turned firmly.

[SpencerH]

I just started a campaign with the Poles. I can tell you they're pretty poor. I dont recall what year it is (its early) but I've got a very tight budget with 7 provinces now including 4 on the baltic. Gotta get those ships a building

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (SpencerH @ April 15 2004,10:13)]I just started a campaign with the Poles. I can tell you they're pretty poor. I dont recall what year it is (its early) but I've got a very tight budget with 7 provinces now including 4 on the baltic. Gotta get those ships a building

I've tried playing the Poles a couple of times, but could never get used to playing broke.

[SpencerH]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ April 15 2004,10:20)]

Quote[/b] (SpencerH @ April 15 2004,10:13)]I just started a campaign with the Poles. I can tell you they're pretty poor. I dont recall what year it is (its early) but I've got a very tight budget with 7 provinces now including 4 on the baltic. Gotta get those ships a building

I've tried playing the Poles a couple of times, but could never get used to playing broke.

Its gonna be tough I think. Its why my first move was to take the baltic rebel provinces. At least this way I'll have a hope of generating cash, albeit cash that is easily interdicted by the Danes if I dont stay on their good side (luckily the poles seem to be exceeding prolific so I'll have lots of princesses for cementing alliances).

[LoST RaiNDRoP]

being excomunicated sucks... even though im catholic, i would hate being excomunicated in the game... how can you expand without being excomunicated? is there anyway you can stop the pope from excomunicating you? cant assasinate because that would be pretty much imposible... and another thing is that the papal states is agains me(english).. i tried to negotiate a cease fire but he refuses..

so, yea, im against the papal states now.. and if i conquer the papal states, im sure there would be a lot of rebelion going on when i take hold of rome. do you think its worth it?...

its a good thing that most christian provinces are on my hands because no one would launch a crusade against me anymore except for the germans (which i am currently trying to counquer). im gettong a lot of rebelion near germany and the papal states... and the loyalty of most of my provinces averages on 130.. pretty risky since i only have my military in my borders.. and very little army scattered around my country. is there anyway i can raise the loyalty?

well, anyways, the most powerful countries in the map now is me(english) and the egyptians... i cant launch crusades agains them (the egyptians) because like i said, the pope doesnt support me ans wouldnt take my peace offers... really sucks.. oh well, im making my way around through north africa to conquer egypt if i can.. im not going for any christian provinces for now (unless the pope dies then i will take advantage of it). egypt has the largest military might, and its really scary looking at its army... it can conquer me really fast if it breaks the military line in my bordering provinces (which would be a easy for them)... i rule half of europe, egypt rules 1/4 of eurpoe... germany, the papal states, and italians and etc rule 1/4... i cant figure out how egypt can support such a bigger army with less provinces than i have..

oh... before the pope was against me, i launched bunches of crusades one at a time against the egyptians.. filled with literally TONS of men that would make their way to palestine. none of those crusades even got past the first egyptian province.. *sigh* thats how strong they are..

**wow.. that was long.. i had no idea.. anyways, any advices?

[Tricky Lady]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ April 12 2004,23:26)]I always keep an eye on the Pope's territory. If somebody else sets up a puppet Pope, grab as much land as you can. A puppet pope won't excommunicate you.

What's a puppet pope in-game? I know what a puppet pope/king/leader is in real life, but how does MTW represent the puppet pope?

[Doug-Thompson]

When a faction conquers all papal territory and captures the Pope. you get a message that a puppet pope has been set up and that all excommunications are declared null and void. The territory remains under the control of the conquering faction, though, so there is no Pope shown on the map.

As a hard-core Muslim player, I have questions about this myself. Can Catholic factions launch crusades during a puppet pope's reign?

[motorhead]

Quote[/b] ]What's a puppet pope in-game? I know what a puppet pope/king/leader is in real life, but how does MTW represent the puppet pope?

If the papacy is eliminated you get the puppet message:
The Papacy has been conquered and a puppet Pope sits on the throne in Rome under the control of his conquerors, but much of the Papal hierarchy escaped. They have set up a Papacy in exile with their own Pope. The Papacy will take no part in affairs of state until it re-emerges as an independent faction.

Basically no worry about excomm and no crusades. But the pope will re-emerge sooner or later

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (motorhead @ April 15 2004,15:49)]Basically no worry about excomm and no crusades. But the pope will re-emerge sooner or later

Well, answered the heck out of that question.

The Pope always comes back very strong, and very angry.

[LoST RaiNDRoP]

one time -- when i conquered the papal state and in the popes provinces -- there were big uprisings that happened. very strong i hardly won defending it. what do you do to get the pope in your side? instead of him lauching rebalion against me (his ruling ruler)...

[Don Corleone]

Just for grins & giggles, is there any way you could play as the Pope? And if so, are there rules governing your behavior, or could you excommunicate folks on a whim? Ceee-Yah

Poland, thou hast chosen a color scheme that too closely resembles that of thine neighbors. For making His Holiness go nearsighted in attempting to read thine emissaries loyalty, thou hast been judged unworthy of receiving the blessed sacraments and shall henceforth be known as an enemy of Jesus Christ and his beloved bride, the Holy Church. May all true faithful followers of Christ raise up the sword against His enemy and smite thee, sending thee back to the pits of the abyss from whence thy came.

*chuckles maniacally*

[SpencerH]

The Brits attack me and I retaliate by taking their (3) european provinces that border mine. The pope, of course, excommunicates me for aggression Now, a few years after the fact, I'm at war with all the catholic nations. Even the Danes attacked me (but I whooped em with a small force at a bridge crossing, lucky for me).

After reading this thread, I guess its assasin time for the pope.

Bluudy catholics filling up the bluudy world with their bluudy children

[Xiphias]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ April 15 2004,21:52)]The Pope always comes back very strong, and very angry.

And very, very broke. Since he has a couple of full stacks and only takes two or three provinces.

Does anyone know if there is an upper limit to the number of papal troops or if there is any way to stop them re-emerging?

Oh, and I think you might get excommed without a warning if you attack two catholic factions in the same turn.

[katank]

no cap on popesta.

he could be far more powerful and persistent than the mongols.

better to raze these provinces to the ground and let him take on rebels there.

[Xiphias]

That's a shame, I guess the number of troops is determined by what troops you have in that province.

[Shamus]

Playing as the HRE recently, I was attacked by the pesky French. They attacked two of my western provinces, and were almost successful in taking one of them (thank goodness for the ease with which you can defend a river crossing). After crippling their numbers in my defense, I grabbed Flanders from them the very next year. The Pope threatened excom, but I took the French fortifications the year after that.

By this time the Aragonese had taken the southern-most French province for themselves. I waited the prerequisite 10 years of peace-time and built my army up sizably. In one turn I took the last remaining French provinces between myself and the English (couldn’t get at the solitary French province to the west of the English). In the first battle I killed all of the king’s heirs, and in the second battle I killed the king himself.

No French, no reason for the pope to consider excomming me.

I’m a patient man and will wait years to exact my revenge. I know that a lot of people who are new to the game feel hemmed in when playing as a Catholic faction (I know I did). Unless you have access to kicking the Pope’s butt, your best bet is patience and army building, followed by a sudden and massive strike (then more patience and army building…..).

Be strategic about the provinces you hit. If you have a choice between two, take the one that will hurt your enemy the most to loose. If you take their strong economic provinces, then they will be unable to fund armies to retaliate. If you take their strong military provinces, then they wont have the facilities to churn out units that will challenge your armies. This helps to ensure relative peace along your borders while you build your armies back up to launch a new set of attacks in 10 years.

Cheers

[katank]

another good technique is to split their provinces and isolate their king for ransoms.

when you ransom their king, the cash pay off is usually 8-10k which is good enough to risk excomm in most cases due to economic boost it give you and can break the opposing faction's bank which would make attacks against you next to impossible.

[Graphic]

newbie question:

How does being excommed harm you?

[katank]

well, excommed means other catholics can attack you without being excommed themselves, they can crusade you, you can't crusade.

it also is a big happiness decreaser if you have high zeal provinces.

solution is to have either your king or the pope die of nautral causes or other.

i prefer assasins or even grand inquisitors for da popesta