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Thread: The Complete Total War Unit Guide

  1. #61
    Member Member Quokka's Avatar
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    Ottoman Infantry have an Armour Piercing melee attack. This gives them a nice edge when fighting the tin can Catholic armies later in the game.



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  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Dec. 17 2003,11:51)]That is already in the guide right at the start of the MTW section. I have now put it in bold to make it clearer, also fixed a typo that turned 'medium' into 'large'. I have a chart in the appendixes listing how many men there are in each type of unit on each unit size setting, so people can use this to convert. I've used medium size units ever since the game was released and it is too late for me to think of the units as having a different man count. Froggy is a creature of habit and limited number capacity
    Humble apologies then
    I know old habits are hard to lose.
    Ignoranti, quem portum petat, nullus suus ventus est. -Seneca, Epistulae Morales, VIII, 71, 3

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Quokka @ Dec. 17 2003,12:15)]Ottoman Infantry have an Armour Piercing melee attack. This gives them a nice edge when fighting the tin can Catholic armies later in the game.
    Thanks, fixed.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  4. #64
    The Abominable Senior Member Hexxagon Champion Monk's Avatar
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    wow did anybody else notice this? check out the community news half way down.. totalwar.com

    Looks like CA has taken a liking to your guide froggy

    Exelent work




  5. #65

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    :froggy is taking a break from dealing with Christmas stuff:
    What's that you say? :follows link:
    Holy moly :jaw hits ground:
    That's....that's....eeep :froggy points and gabbers a bit:
    "This is the most comprehensive unit guide to the world of Total War" they actually said that....eeep

    I don't believe it - I am on the front page of the official site with a recommendation for the most comprehensive unit guide This is the first I've heard of it, if you hadn't posted that link I would have missed it completely. So who spotted this guide and got it put up on the site? Curiosity killed the cat (er frogbeast) and all that as the saying goes. Thank heaven I finished drinking my hot chocolate before I read this or I'd need a new keyboard

    What can I say, maybe wow Possibly as hint of Oh My God Maybe even Taffing Heck

    BTW: for those of you wondering eeep is like eeek but with a p on the end, think suprised squeek. Taffing heck is not swearing, it just sounds good
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  6. #66
    The Abominable Senior Member Hexxagon Champion Monk's Avatar
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    Had it not been for a strange feeling to look at the bottem of the page i would have missed it as well. I spotted it while doing by second of third daily sweeps of the net looking for new rtw stuff. (yeah i search for new rtw stuff constantly, so what? ) Anyhow congratulations froggy, this is clearly the highest honor , or one of them.

    I can't tell which




  7. #67

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Monk @ Dec. 17 2003,21:42)]this is clearly the highest honor , or one of them.

    I can't tell which
    Neither can I I just want to know how my little (lol ) guide got there in the first place. Did someone from CA read this and recommend it without posting here? Did a patron recommend it to the website? Did a giant penguin appear from nowhere and demand that the frogs work is added? What a mystery

    Right, now my game of catch up has hit this guide are there any more additions or corrections? If not I shall be releasing this for PDFing soon, around the beginning of January.

    Now I get to catch up a few other bits and pieces here before trying to convince myself that tomorrow afternoon will be fun. I love hearing my uncle talk about trains for hours at a time. Yes I do. I do. Ah, who I am kidding, I hate trains and I hate hearing about them for hours at a time I shall just write some more of Frog Tzu in my head or something while nodding and smiling politely. Makes a change to accidentally dripping blood from a cut knuckle onto rapping paper anyway

    Bah Humbug
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  9. #69
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Froggy... I'm impressed to say the least I have been thinking while you have been doing, I have been delaying, while you have been working. DAMN

    I give you a full deck: Five stars * * * * * and three thumbs up congratulation on a great job done.

    Now on to the less syphantic aspects of my post.

    CA hasn't posted here because they are under a massive workload at the time. I'm surprised that they haven't replied with a little praise, but I'm not nearly as surprised as many would be given they have posted a link at the frontpage. Richie has several times told us (at the com) about the workload right now at CA, so I understand them.

    About shields and the various things about them:
    Large shields: +2 def and armour
    All cav and small shields: +1 def and armour
    Pavise shields: +3 armour
    The thing about them being used in melee in the prod files, if they have a 'NO' then the shield only adds armour and no bonus to def. Units such as the Varangian Guards and Jannisary Heavy Infantry have such shields, but even the Swabian Awordsmen have it as well as the Early Varangians (those we can only play by modding).
    The modifiers on the shields, the 1, 0.5 and 0.0 mean how effective the shields are. Most units have the modifier of 1 on them, but units such as Chivalric MAA and Chivalric Knights have a 0.5 modifier, as well as Almohad Urban Militia and there are more. The only unit I can remember right now that has the 0.0 modifier (effeectively makes the shield a piece of eyecandy) are the Hospitaller Foot Knights.

    Concerning the Armour Piercing. Well, I might as well post the formula:
    (target armour - 1)/2 = bonus added to attack.

    That means that AP gives a bonus of +1 to attack at enemy armour of 3-4, +2 at 5-6 and so on. Upgraded armour is affected by this, effectively making added armour only half again as effective as it was supposed to.
    Cavalry armour affected by AP starts at 4 due to the horse/camel itself being a point of armour and still a soft squishy thing.
    So really while AP units are more effective against heavily armoured units it doesn't mean they will do poorly against unarmoured units, they just don't get the bonus. So Vikings and Huscarles are still rather good.

    Now I will take another look at the massive guide (WOW) and seek out what I can... Beware...
    You may not care about war, but war cares about you!


  10. #70
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Arqs in the STW part are listed as having -3 in attack, they have -6 like the Musks.

    And maybe you would like to post the Morale for the units:
    Ashi, Arqs and Musks = -4
    Yari Cav, Naginatas, Korean Guards, Thunderers and Mongol Lights = 4
    Archers and Skirmishers = 0
    Heavy Cav = 6
    No-Dachi, Monks, Mongol Heavies, Naginata cav and Kensai = 8
    Ninjas = 10
    Korean Spearmen = 1
    Yari Sams and Cav Archers = 2
    Ashi x-bow = -5

    I also wonder at the speeds of the cavalries. I seem to remember the Naginata Cavalry as being very very slow, in fact the slowest, but these stats (that come from the troopstats file) show otherwise. I think a few tests are in order.
    Also I remember the Naginata Samurais as being 0/5 (attack/def)... I wonder how I can be so different.

    Anyway... Mounted archery is not limited in range compared to normal bows in either STW or MTW. All have the same range of 5000, like that of the Crossbows (in MTW) and Muskets (in STW).

    In the Spearmen section it might be in order to mention that all of them have large shields, all but the Nubians which have a small shield.
    In the archery section you fail to mention that the Desert Archers have a small shield and the Gold Horse Warriors have a Large Shield, the same with the Futuwwas and Nizaris later. All other bowarmed infantry and archers have small shields.

    Chivalric MAA have a 0.5 modifier on their large shields, as I think somebody else mentioned.
    As said earlier the Hospitaller Foot Knights shields are just eyecandy and not really anything that is useful.

    I would personally say the Varangians are more than just a unit that should be pointed at armoured unit. They are very powerful even without the bonus, and with the bonus almost the best unit out there. I think (but I'm not sure) that they can beat the Gothic Foot Knights in a fight. And again, their shield are not used in a melee (as you can see by them slinging it onto their backs when fighting) and it has a 0.5 modifier (granting the Varangians a +1 bonus to armour to the front and sides when not fighting).

    Jannisary Heavies have a large shield, but it is not used in melee.

    Royal Knights are not better than the 'normal' knights of the time. The Early Royals aren't better on an individual basis than the Feudals, the Highs aren't better than the Chivalrics and the Lates aren't better than the Lancers.

    Pronoiai Allagion, as you might want to add are more than just a less uncontrolled version with a lesser charge than the Feudal Knights. They have better Armour as well (1 point).

    Teutonic Sergeants cost 375 florins.

    Conserning cavalry all together, you should have created a class of Medium Cavalry. Then you wouldn't end up with the very much non-heavy Ottoman Sipahis in the Heavy class, and the very non-light Polish Retainers in the Light class (in fact they are the same as the Armenian Heavy Cavalry and as such they should be Heavies in your system).
    The Medium Cavalry class would include:
    Armenian Heavies
    Polish Retainers
    Mounted Sergeants
    Ottoman Sipahis
    Mamluke Cavalry
    and Ghulam Cavalry

    They are visibly superior to the Light Cavalry in a fight and often in the charge, but they can't go toe to toe with Knights and Heavy cavalry. This would also be the class I would put the Mounted Nobles, Byzantine Lancers and Druzhina Cavalry into as they can't perform the same steamroller tactics of the Heavy Cavalry.

    In VI:

    The Armoured Spearmen are much more than just Spearmen with an extra point in Armour. They actually have two points extra of armour and 3 better in def. Very strong defenders actually. And much better at defending against even AP units than Spearmen (look at the formula).

    Fyrdmen are just VI Feudal Sergeants. But obviously that makes them seem much better.

    Arab Infantry, Celtic Warriors (like the Highlanders) have small shields.
    Berserkers and Viking Carls have a large shield.

    Avar Nobles are Khwarazmian Cavalry in another form.
    Horsemen are slow Alans.
    Pictish Cavalry are another type of Saharan Cavalry.

    The Saxon and Viking Huscarles are different in their shields (ok only looks different). Saxon is triangular while Viking is round.

    Bonnachts only throw one (1) heavy javelin, well a spear actually. Slightly more lethal.
    Irish Dartmen throw 7 darts, but they are not armour piercing.

    And that was it really... I hope I haven't brought you down with this list. In such a massive work, even a seldom flaw here and there will add up to this much.
    You may not care about war, but war cares about you!


  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Dec. 20 2003,00:59)]Froggy... I'm impressed to say the least I have been thinking while you have been doing, I have been delaying, while you have been working. DAMN

    I give you a full deck: Five stars * * * * * and three thumbs up congratulation on a great job done.

    Now on to the less syphantic aspects of my post.
    Reading the rest I think I prefered the sicophantic part

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]CA hasn't posted here because they are under a massive workload at the time. I'm surprised that they haven't replied with a little praise, but I'm not nearly as surprised as many would be given they have posted a link at the frontpage. Richie has several times told us (at the com) about the workload right now at CA, so I understand them.
    Understandable. At least now I have an idea as to how this ended up on the front page and that is all I wanted. I don't read .com as often as I used to, the background makes everything hard to read. I do try to keep up with the interesting bits though.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]About shields and the various things about them:
    Large shields: +2 def and armour
    All cav and small shields: +1 def and armour
    Pavise shields: +3 armour
    The thing about them being used in melee in the prod files, if they have a 'NO' then the shield only adds armour and no bonus to def. Units such as the Varangian Guards and Jannisary Heavy Infantry have such shields, but even the Swabian Awordsmen have it as well as the Early Varangians (those we can only play by modding).
    The modifiers on the shields, the 1, 0.5 and 0.0 mean how effective the shields are. Most units have the modifier of 1 on them, but units such as Chivalric MAA and Chivalric Knights have a 0.5 modifier, as well as Almohad Urban Militia and there are more. The only unit I can remember right now that has the 0.0 modifier (effeectively makes the shield a piece of eyecandy) are the Hospitaller Foot Knights.
    Er numbers. Numbers with modifers. I shall have to go through this bit very slowly and see what I can do with it. Appendix of shield modifers I think and noted in the relevant unit descriptions. This will take hours.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Concerning the Armour Piercing. Well, I might as well post the formula:
    (target armour - 1)/2 = bonus added to attack.

    That means that AP gives a bonus of +1 to attack at enemy armour of 3-4, +2 at 5-6 and so on. Upgraded armour is affected by this, effectively making added armour only half again as effective as it was supposed to.
    Cavalry armour affected by AP starts at 4 due to the horse/camel itself being a point of armour and still a soft squishy thing.
    So really while AP units are more effective against heavily armoured units it doesn't mean they will do poorly against unarmoured units, they just don't get the bonus. So Vikings and Huscarles are still rather good.
    Urk More numbers for me to fight with. To be included in the appendixes when I understand it. Alternatively copied and pasted to the appendixes with a note that you wrote it, in the event of me not understanding it enough to rewrite it myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Now I will take another look at the massive guide (WOW) and seek out what I can... Beware...



    Arqs in the STW part are listed as having -3 in attack, they have -6 like the Musks.
    Sorted.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]And maybe you would like to post the Morale for the units:
    Ashi, Arqs and Musks = -4
    Yari Cav, Naginatas, Korean Guards, Thunderers and Mongol Lights = 4
    Archers and Skirmishers = 0
    Heavy Cav = 6
    No-Dachi, Monks, Mongol Heavies, Naginata cav and Kensai = 8
    Ninjas = 10
    Korean Spearmen = 1
    Yari Sams and Cav Archers = 2
    Ashi x-bow = -5
    Thnaks, I wanted to include those stats but I couldn't find anything that looked right in the stats files.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I also wonder at the speeds of the cavalries. I seem to remember the Naginata Cavalry as being very very slow, in fact the slowest, but these stats (that come from the troopstats file) show otherwise. I think a few tests are in order.
    Also I remember the Naginata Samurais as being 0/5 (attack/def)... I wonder how I can be so different.
    Me too, but that was what the stats files said and as far as I could tell it was correct in game. Perhaps we are thinking of another version of Shogun? This is not the community patch version so the stats are quite different.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Anyway... Mounted archery is not limited in range compared to normal bows in either STW or MTW. All have the same range of 5000, like that of the Crossbows (in MTW) and Muskets (in STW).
    Are you sure? I have always heard that mounted missile units have a shorter range than the foot ones and this is supported by evidence in my games as infantry missiles always open fire long before the mounted ones can. This calls for poking around in the stats files and some extensive testing. Fun fun fun

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]In the Spearmen section it might be in order to mention that all of them have large shields, all but the Nubians which have a small shield.
    In the archery section you fail to mention that the Desert Archers have a small shield and the Gold Horse Warriors have a Large Shield, the same with the Futuwwas and Nizaris later. All other bowarmed infantry and archers have small shields.
    Fixed. Some already had references to the correct shield types but the rest are now in place. This must have been written before I developed my fast and accurate way of noting down all the significant points of a unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Chivalric MAA have a 0.5 modifier on their large shields, as I think somebody else mentioned.
    As said earlier the Hospitaller Foot Knights shields are just eyecandy and not really anything that is useful.
    I shall come back to that one later.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I would personally say the Varangians are more than just a unit that should be pointed at armoured unit. They are very powerful even without the bonus, and with the bonus almost the best unit out there. I think (but I'm not sure) that they can beat the Gothic Foot Knights in a fight. And again, their shield are not used in a melee (as you can see by them slinging it onto their backs when fighting) and it has a 0.5 modifier (granting the Varangians a +1 bonus to armour to the front and sides when not fighting).
    Varangians were supposed to have another half to their description stating that they were good against unarmoured targets and have large shields. This bit must have been lost when my hard drive broke and ruined the guide, deleting parts at random, moving bits, turning bits into symbols not letters and so on. Most of the other missing bits were spotted and replaced but this one escaped. Parts of the axemen intro and other axe units are missing as well so I think I shall rewrite this bit and see if I can get it to make sense again. The guide got so messed up it took me weeks to fix it and now I find part of it is still broken.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Jannisary Heavies have a large shield, but it is not used in melee.
    Shields later, along with the bonus stats number thing nightmare I need to be awake when doing number related stat stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Royal Knights are not better than the 'normal' knights of the time. The Early Royals aren't better on an individual basis than the Feudals, the Highs aren't better than the Chivalrics and the Lates aren't better than the Lancers.
    They used to be, when this was altered I don't know. Rewriting the section later.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Pronoiai Allagion, as you might want to add are more than just a less uncontrolled version with a lesser charge than the Feudal Knights. They have better Armour as well (1 point).
    Was already in there except for the single point of armour and the impetuous bit. Have rewritten to make this clearer, the word equipment was a bit vague I admit.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Teutonic Sergeants cost 375 florins.
    Fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Conserning cavalry all together, you should have created a class of Medium Cavalry. Then you wouldn't end up with the very much non-heavy Ottoman Sipahis in the Heavy class, and the very non-light Polish Retainers in the Light class (in fact they are the same as the Armenian Heavy Cavalry and as such they should be Heavies in your system).
    The Medium Cavalry class would include:
    Armenian Heavies
    Polish Retainers
    Mounted Sergeants
    Ottoman Sipahis
    Mamluke Cavalry
    and Ghulam Cavalry

    They are visibly superior to the Light Cavalry in a fight and often in the charge, but they can't go toe to toe with Knights and Heavy cavalry. This would also be the class I would put the Mounted Nobles, Byzantine Lancers and Druzhina Cavalry into as they can't perform the same steamroller tactics of the Heavy Cavalry.
    I was following the official guides categories to make sure I missed nothing. This is quite a major rewrite and set of fiddling around with the four word documents that make up the guide I edit. I shall think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]In VI:

    The Armoured Spearmen are much more than just Spearmen with an extra point in Armour. They actually have two points extra of armour and 3 better in def. Very strong defenders actually. And much better at defending against even AP units than Spearmen (look at the formula).
    I thought something was off there as I always found armoured spears to be very good but for some reason when I looked at thwe stats they were so similar despite being obviously different. This is why froggy should not do number reliant stuff Rewriting.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Fyrdmen are just VI Feudal Sergeants. But obviously that makes them seem much better.
    yes they are. More stat related myopia. Fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Arab Infantry, Celtic Warriors (like the Highlanders) have small shields.
    Berserkers and Viking Carls have a large shield.
    fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Avar Nobles are Khwarazmian Cavalry in another form.
    Horsemen are slow Alans.
    Pictish Cavalry are another type of Saharan Cavalry.
    More statistical hijinks Avars noted alongside the differences that make them much better. Horsemen and picts also noted.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]The Saxon and Viking Huscarles are different in their shields (ok only looks different). Saxon is triangular while Viking is round.
    Cosmetic difference noted.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Bonnachts only throw one (1) heavy javelin, well a spear actually. Slightly more lethal.
    Irish Dartmen throw 7 darts, but they are not armour piercing.
    Damage, leathal same thing. Ammo noted. Dartmen fixed and thanks, was wondering about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]And that was it really... I hope I haven't brought you down with this list. In such a massive work, even a seldom flaw here and there will add up to this much.
    You have sapped my will to live. ......

    It's a good thing the weather is so bad here the Chrsitmas relative visits have been postponed. This is going to take all day to fix, maybe longer.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  12. #72
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    I'm happy to be of service.:D

    I can understand your reluctance to change the entire setup, it is massive. It is not that I demand you do it, but at times a newbie can get confused. I was very confused in the beginning about Polish Retainers and Armenians... Afterall the CA chart was only a pointer, not really the whole thruth.

    Actually the Medium Cavalry isn't the only change I would have made. I would have created a Hybrid Infantry group, made up of:

    Futuwwas
    Nizaris
    Jannisary Infantry
    Almugharvars
    and Golden Horde Warriors

    Naturally that would just make the guide even more difficult to manage now.
    You may not care about war, but war cares about you!


  13. #73
    Member Member hoom's Avatar
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    I still haven't finished reading it...
    My comments are generally coloured by my playing most of the time on max unit size and that can have an impact on the usefulness of a given unit.

    Good with the archers bit but additionally, you can have your units much closer together too.
    With picture M10, I'd typically space the two units just a little wider (like so the front rank of the back unit is standing just behind where its back rank is currently) & slot in a third between them.

    With spears, its often advantageous to stretch them out to 3 ranks (& take the penalty) to ensure you leave no gaps in the spear wall for cavalry to take advantage of.

    You are far too hard on Militia Sergeants.
    I think of them more as: light Swiss Halberdiers, that all catholic factions can build, with minimal infrastructure, from any province, in Early.
    Rather than: fairly effective peasants.
    They are still quite effective even in late, particularly in the desert where their low armour is an advantage relative to Knights and heavy infantry.
    They take losses but who cares when they are so easily replaceable?
    Militia Sergeants are the core of my armies most of the time & in my experience they are preferable to men at arms.

    The Nag Cav thing doesn't really work with unupgraded Nag Cav.
    They take lots of losses without the armour bonus.
    I understand that this is a 'no upgrades' but upgrades on some units are more effective than on others.
    Fully upgraded Nag Cav are amazing at smashing enemy, and while fully upgraded Monks are similarly so (& probably better on a 1v1 basis), the Cav have the speed to do much more total damage most of the time by smashing many individidual units by concentrating on one at a time.
    I don't think I can really properly describe my usage, its certainly not really a finnesse thing, I pretty much just select a group of 3 or 4 and send them out towards a flankish unit & then charge at about the rightish time so that they envelop...
    Meanwhile I'm mostly concentrating on other things.
    Yes, against a bunch of equal upgrade YS, they're liable to get swamped, but in campaign, I relatively rarely come into contact with such an army.
    Never mind really, its not exactly vital and others may well disagree with me on the merits or otherwise of Nag Cav.

    Gallowglasses are pretty decent in the desert with their low armour & high charge/attack.
    They are also good victory or death chargers.
    A couple of Gallowglasses charging into the midst of an enemy milling around your defensive hill can do enourmous damage even without flanking.

    Personally I find Royal Knights to be particularly useful because their small unit size makes them easy to manouvre and helps them to gain valour quickly.
    They also frequently enough come with a valour bonus inducing prince or ex royal.
    A 10 valour unit of Late Royal Knights is a thing to be feared indeed even on max unit size where 20 vs 120 or 200 looks to be particularly bad odds.



    maybe those guys should be doing something more useful...

  14. #74

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    Tired...so tired...please excuse off key humour.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (arrrse @ Dec. 21 2003,04:37)]I still haven't finished reading it...
    My comments are generally coloured by my playing most of the time on max unit size and that can have an impact on the usefulness of a given unit.

    Good with the archers bit but additionally, you can have your units much closer together too.
    With picture M10, I'd typically space the two units just a little wider (like so the front rank of the back unit is standing just behind where its back rank is currently) & slot in a third between them.
    Well the spacing of the archers along with the strangely shaped formation where forced on me by the AI. It tried to surround me so I had to get creative while still keeping things lined up for the shot. Normally I would have just rotated the formation but then the archers wouldn't be showing of their steep slope stuff. It took the best part of half an hour to get that shot so I didn't have time to try again.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]With spears, its often advantageous to stretch them out to 3 ranks (& take the penalty) to ensure you leave no gaps in the spear wall for cavalry to take advantage of.
    I never have problems with gaps in the shield wall in 4 ranks, it is just a matter of careful deployment. 4 units of spears in 4 ranks each builds more than enough of a front line for any occasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]You are far too hard on Militia Sergeants.
    I think of them more as: light Swiss Halberdiers, that all catholic factions can build, with minimal infrastructure, from any province, in Early.
    Rather than: fairly effective peasants.
    They are still quite effective even in late, particularly in the desert where their low armour is an advantage relative to Knights and heavy infantry.
    They take losses but who cares when they are so easily replaceable?
    Then you wouldn't have liked my opinion on them when I first got the game - a bunch of idiots with pitchforks who should stay at home on the farm like good slack jawed yokals I have altered that opinion slightly now I have used the unit more myself, instead of killing the hordes the AI send at me all the time. The improved opinion is the one in the guide.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Militia Sergeants are the core of my armies most of the time & in my experience they are preferable to men at arms.
    :points at arrrse: You're the AI You have to be the AI in disguise I have always found the sergeants to be a tad crap to be bluntly honest - they don't compete with men at arms and they don't compete with proper polearms (ie not halberdiers). You need them to be valour 4 before they can do much and this guide is valour 0 only. Yes they are disposable and that is part and parcel of their use but I don't like disposable units, I go the hard core proffessional route and get high valour experts at the end of the day. My opinion of the unit is not aided by the AI sending thousands of them after me at every battle and I always kill them with ease. I have tweaked the entry to be a bit more favourable as you suggest in terms of cost and accessability.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]The Nag Cav thing doesn't really work with unupgraded Nag Cav.
    They take lots of losses without the armour bonus.
    I understand that this is a 'no upgrades' but upgrades on some units are more effective than on others.
    Fully upgraded Nag Cav are amazing at smashing enemy, and while fully upgraded Monks are similarly so (& probably better on a 1v1 basis), the Cav have the speed to do much more total damage most of the time by smashing many individidual units by concentrating on one at a time.
    I don't think I can really properly describe my usage, its certainly not really a finnesse thing, I pretty much just select a group of 3 or 4 and send them out towards a flankish unit & then charge at about the rightish time so that they envelop...
    Meanwhile I'm mostly concentrating on other things.
    Yes, against a bunch of equal upgrade YS, they're liable to get swamped, but in campaign, I relatively rarely come into contact with such an army.
    Never mind really, its not exactly vital and others may well disagree with me on the merits or otherwise of Nag Cav.
    I shall pretend you said nothing then No, I'm thinking about adding an appendix on valour and unit upgrades, how to tell what upgrades your units need for best effect, how certain units become deadly at certain levels or valour/honour/upgrades as long as the enemy are not so upgraded etc. This example, and the militia sergants at valour 4, would fit into that appendix.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Gallowglasses are pretty decent in the desert with their low armour & high charge/attack.
    They are also good victory or death chargers.
    A couple of Gallowglasses charging into the midst of an enemy milling around your defensive hill can do enourmous damage even without flanking.
    added. Also funny reference to cooking in tin foil. I kill myself

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Personally I find Royal Knights to be particularly useful because their small unit size makes them easy to manouvre and helps them to gain valour quickly.
    They also frequently enough come with a valour bonus inducing prince or ex royal.
    A 10 valour unit of Late Royal Knights is a thing to be feared indeed even on max unit size where 20 vs 120 or 200 looks to be particularly bad odds.
    Included in the newly revamped royal knights sections.


    And now onto Kraxis.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  15. #75

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    And so onto the unfinished bits from Kraxis' post.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]About shields and the various things about them:
    Large shields: +2 def and armour
    All cav and small shields: +1 def and armour
    Pavise shields: +3 armour
    The thing about them being used in melee in the prod files, if they have a 'NO' then the shield only adds armour and no bonus to def. Units such as the Varangian Guards and Jannisary Heavy Infantry have such shields, but even the Swabian Awordsmen have it as well as the Early Varangians (those we can only play by modding).
    The modifiers on the shields, the 1, 0.5 and 0.0 mean how effective the shields are. Most units have the modifier of 1 on them, but units such as Chivalric MAA and Chivalric Knights have a 0.5 modifier, as well as Almohad Urban Militia and there are more. The only unit I can remember right now that has the 0.0 modifier (effeectively makes the shield a piece of eyecandy) are the Hospitaller Foot Knights.
    Added appendix with sheild stuff, parlty copeid and partly rewritten so credit is shared. Will add in the individual sheild references later to the unit descriptions. Will probably take a few days at the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Concerning the Armour Piercing. Well, I might as well post the formula:
    (target armour - 1)/2 = bonus added to attack.

    That means that AP gives a bonus of +1 to attack at enemy armour of 3-4, +2 at 5-6 and so on. Upgraded armour is affected by this, effectively making added armour only half again as effective as it was supposed to.
    Cavalry armour affected by AP starts at 4 due to the horse/camel itself being a point of armour and still a soft squishy thing.
    So really while AP units are more effective against heavily armoured units it doesn't mean they will do poorly against unarmoured units, they just don't get the bonus. So Vikings and Huscarles are still rather good.
    Added as an appendix with a few notes. Partly copied and pasted, partly rewritten so I've credited you in the section.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I also wonder at the speeds of the cavalries. I seem to remember the Naginata Cavalry as being very very slow, in fact the slowest, but these stats (that come from the troopstats file) show otherwise. I think a few tests are in order.
    Also I remember the Naginata Samurais as being 0/5 (attack/def)... I wonder how I can be so different.
    Still not checked, no time so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Anyway... Mounted archery is not limited in range compared to normal bows in either STW or MTW. All have the same range of 5000, like that of the Crossbows (in MTW) and Muskets (in STW).
    Still haven't had time to check. Maybe this evening.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I would personally say the Varangians are more than just a unit that should be pointed at armoured unit. They are very powerful even without the bonus, and with the bonus almost the best unit out there. I think (but I'm not sure) that they can beat the Gothic Foot Knights in a fight. And again, their shield are not used in a melee (as you can see by them slinging it onto their backs when fighting) and it has a 0.5 modifier (granting the Varangians a +1 bonus to armour to the front and sides when not fighting).
    axemen section rewritten to what I can remember of the original. Some new bits over the orginal as well, probably a few things people will take exception to but I always find axes much less effective than swords or polearms against unarmoured targets. I did a load of experiemtns back when VI was new and landsmen took many losses against round sheild spears while carls didn't. Against armoured spears the situation was reversed and the carls took the losses. It was consistant for every battle and matched the other axes in the medievla campaign. Huscarles are one of the few exceptions to this, alongside Varangains.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Royal Knights are not better than the 'normal' knights of the time. The Early Royals aren't better on an individual basis than the Feudals, the Highs aren't better than the Chivalrics and the Lates aren't better than the Lancers.
    Rewritten. I thouyght my royals were less effective than they were in 1.0, wonder when they were nerfed?

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Conserning cavalry all together, you should have created a class of Medium Cavalry. Then you wouldn't end up with the very much non-heavy Ottoman Sipahis in the Heavy class, and the very non-light Polish Retainers in the Light class (in fact they are the same as the Armenian Heavy Cavalry and as such they should be Heavies in your system).
    The Medium Cavalry class would include:
    Armenian Heavies
    Polish Retainers
    Mounted Sergeants
    Ottoman Sipahis
    Mamluke Cavalry
    and Ghulam Cavalry

    They are visibly superior to the Light Cavalry in a fight and often in the charge, but they can't go toe to toe with Knights and Heavy cavalry. This would also be the class I would put the Mounted Nobles, Byzantine Lancers and Druzhina Cavalry into as they can't perform the same steamroller tactics of the Heavy Cavalry.
    Not possible - I tried it as an experiment and it would require rebuilding this guide from the ground up. especially when those hybrid infantry changes are thrown in. Just copying and pasting will mess things up too badly, the potential for missed bits is high, the index needs redoing, the post splits would have to change, the essential devisions of the guide would have to change, little references in the text would have to change, would need new pictures for chapter headings etc so the new sections are easier to find. Shame because it was a good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]In VI:

    The Armoured Spearmen are much more than just Spearmen with an extra point in Armour. They actually have two points extra of armour and 3 better in def. Very strong defenders actually. And much better at defending against even AP units than Spearmen (look at the formula).
    Ok, now rewritten.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  16. #76

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    I have tried a few tests in MTW of mounted/infantry archer ranges and there was no doubt about it - mounted arhcers have a shorter range. The infantry archers always got a single volley off while the horses were moving into range. Tests were on steppes05 with an assortment of different types of infantry archers and mounted archers. I controlled the infantry and the cavalry alternately (battle 1 as moutned, battle 2 as infantry etc) and the units always met head on with a perfect angle so the entire front rank could open fire at the same time. The map is as flat as a pancake so height advanatge does not come into play. In all 20 battles the infantry got off a single volley before the cavalry were even in range. Therefore there is a difference in range, not a drastic one but one none the less.

    So the mounted missile and infantry missile sections stay as they are unless someone can offer definite proof that my game is odd. My copy is not edited in any way, no mods etc either.

    Now I shall try it in Shogun when I get time and see what happens.

    Kraxis: The slow naginata cav were in the community 1.3 patch, not normal 1.2. Same applies to the naginata, I think.
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  17. #77
    The Abominable Senior Member Hexxagon Champion Monk's Avatar
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    Just when i think i can't say anymore you get another award , and unless i'm still not awake (and its 3 pm here so i doubt that) you got a writer hof award, if thats indeed what that is above your avatar, its the first ive seen of it.

    Whatever it is, i like it. Congrats again Froggy

  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Monk @ Dec. 22 2003,21:07)]Just when i think i can't say anymore you get another award , and unless i'm still not awake (and its 3 pm here so i doubt that) you got a writer hof award, if thats indeed what that is above your avatar, its the first ive seen of it.

    Whatever it is, i like it. Congrats again Froggy
    I don't know exactly what this one is, it's not HOF anyway. I think it is one of the 'achievement' or 'famous' or 'outstanding' or whatever it's called series like the ones for map makers or many victories in MP, except of course for writing. I haven't seen any others like it so it could be either guide writing or just writing. It just appeared 'poof', I answered a PM on the guide and then posted in the tavern and was shocked to see a neat little icon with a scroll on it. I don't even know who to thank so I shall just repeat my thanks to the Mysterious Icon Giver from the tavern topic where I spotted it.

    And that answers the question raised in the 'Thank Froggy' topics on what you give an amphibian.

    I like it, I shall keep it nicely polished My poor little head is beginning to swell, I won't be able to fit it through the doorway
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  19. #79
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Talking

    Frog, Froggy or Egg... Pick one

    I have just concluded a number of tests myself on the ranges of archery and the effectiveness of axes vs spears.

    I can conclude that you are right about the Carls being more effective against the normal spears, losing fewer and killing more than the Landsmen. Against Armoured Spearmen they were equally effective. That can only mean one thing, the +1 attack against spears only apply to true swordinfantry (those with SWORD in the prod-file at the very end of the unit). That means units such as Gallows and Swabians are NOT getting this bonus, as their stats says AXE. Could be that the bonus has been applied to the units on an individual basis, so Gallows and other swordunits get the bonus while non-swords with the stats of SWORD doesn't get it (such as Peasants, Archers and crews).

    Concerning the ranges.
    I could not reproduce your results to my satisfaction. A few times the horses were slower to let loose the first volley, but that has something to do with the fact that the horse archers started out at Firing, while the Archers started out at Reloading, meaning the Archers got a second headstart on the horses. Another possible reason for the slower reaction could be the Fire At Will order itself, as it does NOT fire as soon as it can. I have often directly ordered my units to fire when they were at FAW but didn't fire. That falls nicely in with the projectiles file, where both types of bows have a range of 5000.
    Conclusion is that both units have the same effective range.
    You may not care about war, but war cares about you!


  20. #80

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    Yesterday my poor little head was beginning to swell, today it is beginning to ache On with the show.

    Axe/swords.
    My tests against the spears in VI were in V2.0 so I shall try a few in the current 2.1 and see if it makes a difference. Since you matched my results well enough no need to panic. Yet.

    I always assumed just units with swords got the sword bonus, I don't really follow the stats and calculations so I just think in terms of swords get sword bonus, no sword=no bonus. And now you say some units look like they have a sword but it is classed as an axe. Let me guess - that is all the armour piercing sword units?

    My head hurts Sword graphic should = sword bonus, if only for the sake of my sanity.

    Ranges.
    Was that in SP or MP? Someone has volunteered to test it out in MP, I shall run a few more tests in SP and it would be useful to know what mode your results came in from. I know the stats give the two units identical ranges but that has never been the case in my experience but I have only really played SP and the AI can be a little quirky sometimes. But all the same I know what I saw - the AIs infantry opened up on my horses while they were still moving into range, they did this many times. When I had the infantry my men opened fire first and the AI was still moving the cavalry.

    I think the best thing is to get as many test results in as possible from both SP and MP so we can get a better picture of what is going on. If I get the shorter range effect but 4 other people don't then something is bizarre about my install of the game and it will be easy enough to go with the results the majority have found. It certainly isn't a probelm with the projectile_stats file because I was able to play a few multiplayer games last month without problems. If I can scrape an hour or two and a MP partner volunteer type person I may try some online tests myself. Unlikely though.

    My head hurts Too many stats, too many numbers and too many conumdrums over something that I have been seeing for literally years.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  21. #81

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    The happy test results for Carls Versus Landsmenn in the killing of armoured spearmen or proof froogy is not completely insane. :D

    First the set-up. Steppesinland05 in spring on normal difficulty so no bonuses/penalties for either side. Valour 0 and no upgrades. AI has the spears, I have the carls/landsmenn. Spears are always in their optinal 4 ranks because the AI is smart like that. Carls/landsmenn are always in their optimum 2 ranks because I'm smart like that. :p AI is defending so it sits there, I march head on and the units always charge each other and meet perfectly aligned. I love it when the AI plays ball :handball: After deploying the Vikings time is set to maximum acceleration and left there since I don't have much time.

    EDIT: Screenshots removed to make the space easier to navigate.

    Analysis thingy
    The defeat for the carles can be discounted as an anomoly, no idea what happened there as the battle went the same as usual until they ran off. Cowards :p It is clear from the results that the landsmenn always lost fewer men, the kill counts are about equal except in two battles. In one battle the carles lost and so this is discounted, the second one gives the carles a killcount of 94 which is unusually high but will not be discounted as higher than average killcounts do happen from time to time.

    If anyone really wants the boredom factor of watching a set of nearly identical replays I can put together a set to prove these results are real with no bias etc.

    PS:I presume I got the same general 5 times in a row because I kept hitting replay battle rahter than working my way through the menus each time. Odd Weather Hat is a wonderful name



    As far as the missile ranges go it is the same as usual but I can't get reliable pictures of it as I need to be pretty far away to fit both units in view and then you can't see what is happening. I shall just follow majority opinion if enough people agree with Kraxis' results.



    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  22. #82

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    Added in-depth explanation of spear charging to the appendix. Copied my post from the topic on this subject.

    Can't test the ranges in Shogun because I can't find the ironing board map, I have both MI and the most recent map pack but no ironing board. No flat map=someone gets the advantage of height because the AI is too smart not to park on a hill. Bah Humbug

    Now onto shield number bonus effective thing that Kraxis raised.

    EDIT:And the shield modifers etc are now written in. Think I got them all.



    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  23. #83
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    I've done some extensive testing and found out a few things.
    nr.1 Militia sergeants are one of the best counter (pricewise) to heavily armoured polearms (hailbarders and CFK) with armour upgrades. It's wort noticing considering that those unit barely got any counters at all.

    Nr.2 To get the wrap effect on non-spear units (haven't tried it on spearunits but I think it's the same there),using swordsmen or simular, in a frontal charge, you'll need to but the unit in hold formation until the unit have hitted eachother, then put them back on thier regular form (attack at will??). If you don't do it then all units will simply run to the center during the charging and therfore ruining the wrap-effect. They don't get a wrap-effect even if they are put in one long line.

    The wrap effect is small but noticeable and gives a slight combat advantage.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  24. #84

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    Appologies in advance if this sounds rude Ironside, it has been a very long Christmas, New Year is still looming and I hate this time of year. Also I am still tired

    What you are doing is a small but common error that I have been correcting for a very long time indeed. This time I shall make it unmissable for the benefit of everyone reading this thread and in the hope I will not have to do this again:

    Double clicking on a enemy unit orders your unit to run not charge All you need to do is single click and they will charge on their own when they get close enough - this will give the unit the full charge bonus without wasting energy or disrupting formation KEEP YOUR TWITCHY FINGER OFFF THE MOUSE BUTTON No I don't say that in the unit guide - that is because it is basic level tactics and covered in my beginners guide and a hundred or so posts by me I can only repeat myself so much

    And there you go, you are double clicking the enemy and your unit will run towards it and lose formation. Single click the unit and take your hand off the mouse and watch as the unit marches up close and then charges without losing formation or anything. Go into a custom battle and zoom in to watch your unit closely and you will see the difference between running and charging.

    Roll on January 4th when I can enjoy the winter again.

    EDITED to sound somewhat less like I was trying to lynch poor Ironside



    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  25. #85
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    I would like to comment on the pikemen, they are excellent for pushing back bridge assaulters. Combined with some artillary, arquebusters and some albalesters, 2 basic pikemen units is all you need to beat a much larger army. One could also urgue that armenians/ghulams/mamluk are medium cavalry, instead of heavy.




  26. #86
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    I've always thought that you needed to run for a while before charging to get the full charge bonus. I think they even state that in the tutorial (that I made when the game was brand new. When was it, 2 years ago?), that mission whith the charging knights. I knew that the unit charges of it's own but thought it wouldn't give full bonus.

    But running does only destroy the formation faster during the charging phase not before.

    And some more testing proved that running is a as good as not changing the formation, walking gives you the wrap-effect while putting the unit on hold formation during half the charge and then put the unit back on engage at will gives the best results, but demands a little bit more timing. I've got the results but I will only post them on demand.

    We all have our bad days, no harsh feelings
    Cheers
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  27. #87

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    The feature was in Shogun too, I spend a couple of years running samurai around when I could have left them to walk Boy did I feel stupid when I found the feature in MTW and also found it applied to Shogun Small wonder that my samurai were always tired quickly I remember the tutorial telling you to make the knights run but I can't remember much else about that tutorial because I haven't played it in ages. Where I got this little bit of information from I don't remember but I think it may have been the manual or official guide, I shall take a look.

    It is supposed to work thus: The unit marches towards their target and breaks into a charge on their own accord when they get enough space for the run-up to reach their full bonus. If the target doesn't move at all they will definitely reach the full bonus. However if the target is heading towards them rapidly they may not have enough space to reach full speed. Most of the time, for what I can tell by casualty counts etc in game, they do reach the full bonus. The times when they don't often involve fast units like cavalry closing at a gallop with your unit or ordering them to attack when they are already very close to the target. But that is only watching kill counts, not looking at the logfile etc.

    As for the test results, well how complicated are they? If they are quite simple post away, if not I don't need another headache at the moment That is unless someone else wants to see them, in which case post away.



    Fragony
    Thanks, adding to the general pike section.
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  28. #88
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Brillant guide in fact it is excellant just a thought there is no mention of ships they are unit would be handy to know certain things which i bet we all have missed or never copped keep up the good work.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  29. #89

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    Ships don't count as units for the same reason assassins and spies don't count - they never get on the battlefield. Point taken though, I'll see if I can knock together an appendix for ship stats.
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  30. #90
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Ok I'm adding the results now. Notice that I did only write up the results of my losses. I thought it would be enough.
    The units: Me= valor 2 CMAA with 1 weapon upgrade and bronze armour. AI= valor 2 halbardiers with silver armour. On normal. Both unit usually never routed before 50+ losses

    All results below are with the 2 line row
    Walking to the enemy:
    35
    31
    36
    35
    34
    Average: 34.2

    This is about the most stable results I got.

    Running
    40
    55 loss
    38
    27
    56 loss
    56 loss
    Average: 45.33

    Running in hold formation to drop it about halfway through the charge
    28
    48
    19
    38 loss (I was vinning this one but he killed my general )
    22
    32
    42
    31
    28
    Average: 31.25
    I didn't add the results from the loss here because it would been higher so the average is slightly higher.

    I didn't time the charge exactly wich probably explains the somewhat random values.

    Walking the rest same as above.
    39
    21
    44
    36
    29
    Average: 33.8

    Running in hold formation and letting the charge hit you before you change to engage at will

    31
    42
    58 loss
    49 loss
    27
    Average:41.4

    Same explaination as above. You lost more men in the charge doing this witch affected the fight negativly.

    Used starting formation
    36
    52 loss
    40
    52 loss
    48
    Average: 45.6
    Our measurrement on how effective these changes are.

    Starting formation and dubble clicked behind the enemy. Gave a slight flank-effect thanks to that the enemy moved.
    47
    23
    7 I'm not sure what happened here, the halbardiers dropped like flies.
    42
    42
    Average: 32.2
    Talk about dragging down the average.

    Edit: spelling



    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

    Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
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