Spears: stand or fight?

[Defensor Pacis]

I read that spears should be put on hold position and just soak up enemy attacks, because that way they keep their defence advantage through staying in lines with the soldiers behind supporting the soldier in front.

But I've also read that spears can be good hunters of cavalry, and so recently (playing on Spanish, and using Feudal Sergeants plus some leftover Spearmen that I haven't disbanded yet) I have started to use them to charge at horses and camals. They're pretty effective in this way too.

I presume the answer is to use spears in different ways depending on the situation. But can anyone give me any advice on when to stand and when to charge?

Thanks

[garion]

spearman are best used against cavalry and camels, ot ot stand ground. wtach out for other infantry units, because the can hack there way through the ranks. But their biggest enemy are archers/ they're rather slow, and not very good at defending against missiles. Swiss armoured pikemen are clearly the best type of spearmen, and the best way to stop htem is peppering hem with arrows

[Tribesman]

Some spears do have a reasonable charge , if I use them to charge then I halt them once contact has been made and use other units to push the enemy onto the spears .

[Defensor Pacis]

Thanks garion, I appreciate the advice.

Actually I don't usually find the enemy's archers to be a great problem, partly because I usually try and run them down with horses to stop them peppering me with arrows

I'm only just into the High Era on my current game (started on Early as Spanish, on High difficulty), and so haven't got to pikemen yet. I've been turning out halberdiers for a few years but haven't yet the chance to use them in combat, as my current battles are in the desert and I'm sticking to troops with lower armour. An ideal chance to get rid of my outdated spears by killing Egyptians rather than by simply disbanding them. What a waste of good soldiers that would be.

[Defensor Pacis]

Tribesman, thank you for that suggestion, I'd never thought of doing this before - I am very grateful, must try that out

The poor AI won't know what's hit it ... or to be precise, it will know what's hit it, just before a spear goes through its head

[garion]

I usually run down the archers asap as well, because they bother me. Using archers does work well for me, espescially longbows or bulgarian brigands

[Defensor Pacis]

Thanks Garion, I'll try using my archers on the spears. I must say it's nice to play with archers again: before playing as the Spanish, I was the Irish in VI, and could only get archers as mercenaries. Kerns are fun but harder to work.

Having just entered the High era I'm also enjoying having arbalasters. To see them scything down some stationary cavalry was a sight to behold.

But I haven't got to longbows yet (still waiting for them to turn up on my training window in Wales).

I will look out for Bulgarian Brigands to hire as mercenaries. What is so good about them?

[Maychargewithoutorders]

Spears are most effective at receiving a cavarly charge (as it says in their description), its just a case of getting the enemy cavarly to charge them The best method is probably putting your archers just infront of the spear wall, the AI usually charges since it seems like an easy target. Retreat your archers behind the spears and the horses get impaled. The trick is timing, too early and they realise, too late and your archers get stuck on the ranks of the spears and get crushed.

Something else that has worked for me is when they try to flank u. Usually i have some swords there for enveloping their front line but often get cavalry coming at them. With a unit of spearmen next to them change the facing using alt right-click and run the swords just behind the wall. You dont have to run them directly behind the unit, the cavarly charge in a straight line towards your swords, so arrange it so the horses hit the edge of your spears and your swords have a clean run towards safety. Since i usually have militia sergents backing up my flanks the cavarly get swamped.

I don't know how helpful this is to u, but so far in the game mounted units charging have been my biggest headache. It ok when they stay still - archers love a big target Its just when they start moving.....

[katank]

dude, halbs are not spears.

they are polearms. and thus is best used in engage rather than hold.

as for spears, I usually sit pretty with them until enemy cav is within jav range and then sometimes charge them with hold hold to maintain bonus.

depends on the spear.

if muwahid, I definitely charge although I use them to flank rather than eat cav charges. they don't have irresistible charge for nothing.

I personally prefer a staggered spear wall.

SSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSS
WWWW SSSSSSSSSSAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSWWW

where S are spears, A archers, and W swords.

that way, the enemy cav often charges the gap on the spear lines thinking it's a weakness and my swords instantly flank them while still being protected form being charged.

archers can hide behind like that or they can be in the front deployed skirmishing.

loose formation for spears until cav charge imminent is also good for lessening casualties from missiles and allowing your archers to retreat more easily.

archers in wedge come through easier between the spears.

[meravelha]

That's a nice formation, katank, I think I'll borrow it :)
For a defensive setup I'd add in more archers holding position behind the spears and xbows skirmishing ahead.

But my question is: how do you use a spear force when you are the attacker? Keeping everything together and balanced is a little harder then.

[Maychargewithoutorders]

Sorry katank i should make myself a bit more clear. The halbs charging into the horses, mainly so they dont get away. Plus their bonus vs armour gives a good chance of killing those bloody katanks (the unit that is ) To be honest it isnt always halbs just a unit to swamp them.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Defensor Pacis @ May 09 2004,11:55)]I presume the answer is to use spears in different ways depending on the situation. But can anyone give me any advice on when to stand and when to charge?

Consider morale. If you have a bunch of vanilla spearmen with poor morale, they could get wiped out if they lose formation while charging and are counter-attacked by a fresh unit, even a cavalry unit.

Other than that, I'd consider charging with any spear unit that doesn't have a bunch of missile troops to defend. If you can do more damage to the enemy with archers than with the spears, let the spears be bodyguards. If spears are all you have, consider a charge.

[ichi]

Quote[/b] ]But I haven't got to longbows yet (still waiting for them to turn up on my training window in Wales).

If you are playing the Spanish then you will never be able to build Longbows, no matter what you training facilities build in Wales.

Get Inns and LB will show up as Mercs.

ichi

[Vincenzo]

I usually avoid to charge with Muwahid spearmen againts cavalry, but english Billmen are able to hunt more horses that I could dream

[SpencerH]

I charge with spears fairly often, especially when defending on a hill. Often I'll wait for the bowmen to exhaust their arrows then charge any remaining attackers. I find that in most cases once you start the rout its all over. The key is not to pursue too far or charge before the enemy is softened up.

Yesterday, I lost a good army (and a good general) against a much larger force in just that way. I obliterated the early spanish forces then repeatedly charged and withdrew against the reinforcements. Finally (thinking the spanish were down to peasants) my Swiss pikes and halberdiers kept advancing toward the spanish side as they routed them (and away from my pavise arbalasters). Unfortunately, the spanish had lots more strong units and my troops were eventually cut to pieces without the missle support that they had left behind.

[Satyr]

I almost never sit and take a charge. Even when defending I find it an advantage to charge at the oncoming enemy. This way I can usually do a pretty good job of getting the matchups I want. I try hard to get my spears attacking the enemy cav, my swords attacking the enemy spears and my cav attacking the enemy archers and swords. If I do this well and then flank with anyone that wins quickly I can achieve a veritable slaughter almost every time, even if the odds are against me. The trick is to not let your spears get engaged by the enemy's swords as they go down quickly. If you stand and take the charge the AI is good at gaining the advantage. If you are proactive it is not very good at reacting and victory is much more decisive.

[garion]

first of all, vincenzo I hope you know billmen are sort of halberdiers and defenately not spearman.

second of all, discussing strategies with spearman, trie cutting your army into pieces like this

WWWSSSSSS SSSSSSWWWW
SSSSSSS
CCC AAAAAAA AAAAAAA AAAAAAA CCC
CCC WWWW

then, move your left and right flank around the enemy. As soon as the enemy knows that he can't face his entire army towards you he will attack in the centre. pepper them with arrows and use your central spearman and troopsa placed behind the archers to stop the attack. then let you'r flanks attack theirs, which are usually kind of weak. crush the better troops with you're sword-spearman and use cavalry to run down peasants and archers. finally, let you're cavalry run down routers and let you're flanks cave in to kill of the troops still fighting in the middle

this strategy works best against large troop concentrations, on flat battlefields

[katank]

yep.

I love my staggered spear wall for the same reason.

the AI thinks there's a gap and suicidally charges in.

letting your center get slowly pushed back while flanks advance is also doable to get the enemy really pincered off and enveloped.

this is tough to do with lesser inf in center and can be disaster but nice when it works and suddenly the enemy gneral and his best troops are surrounded on all sides and peppered by missiles while moments before they seemed to be winning and pushing you back.

[Vincenzo]

Cita[/b] (garion @ May. 10 2004,15:21)]first of all, vincenzo I hope you know billmen are sort of halberdiers and defenately not spearman.

Thanks, Garion

My strategy


AAAAAAA AAAAAAA AAAAAAA

SSSSSSS WWWWWW SSSSSSS WWWWWWW SSSSSS

CCCCCC CCCCCCC CCCCCC

an then, charge
^ ^ ^ ^ ^
\ l l l /
\ l ^ l ^ l /
CCCC SSSS l SSSS l SSSS CCCC
l l
AAAA WWWW AAA WWWW AAAA
CCCC

Spearmen and swordmen chaging, cavalry flanking.

[Vincenzo]

I´m really sorried for the replication of the post
It´ll happen never again

How can I modify my post??

Could a moderator delete the replied post, please?

Thanks.

[Herodotus]

I often use spearmen as an anvil on which my hammer (swords and cav) crush the enemy.

[Daveybaby]

Vincenzo, you should be able to delete the posts yourself

The top right corner of each of your own posts should have the words:

DELETE EDIT QUOTE

You may have also spotted the EDIT button by now

[garion]

no no, that's not exactly true. we junior patrons can only quote. I know, because of the quality of our posts, you think we're members or even moderators but we're just new here

[Defensor Pacis]

Thanks for the advice everyone I've learnt a lot from your answers. Really grateful.

Maychargewithoutorders – thanks for the tips. I don’t think I integrate my cav very well with other troops at the moment.

Katank – I like the look of that. Will try it although the Byzantines have just launched an unexpected attack on me so I’m kind of fighting for my life at the moment and don’t have my troops in the best order

ichi – that is very sad news, I was really looking forward to my longbows. Thanks for telling me, that will avoid heartache later

Spencer H – sounds like a nightmare defeat

[katank]

yeah.

That is a decent formation that I like quite a bit.

If you only use staggered spears & archers, then you can take most early rabble.

however, the Byz are anything but so watch out.

I would try to run circles around them with HAs but you may not have that luxury.

what faction are you playing as?

[Kenseu]

Whoa. I seem to be the only orthodox person here, and I usually find my tactics to be over complex and screwed up. I used to use spear men a lot as the Turkish. But i started a VI and MedMod game as the HRE, and I found that abosolutely nothing the enemy has can withstand a blitzkrieg by 8-12 units of Swabian Swordsmen and Heerben (Plus some cavalry to flank and mop up afterwords). And now that I've got my Saxon Men-at-Arms, I can be throwing them in the mix too.

But since I've just reached the High Age, I cna start getting Teutonic Seargents and better spear and pike units, so I'll probably be adding them in. I find it handy to have a unit or two to hold the center line, and then my assault troops can push the edges back, and myCavalry can pull a flanking manuveur.

[katank]

teutonic seargents? they aren't buildable but instead are light medium cav available in crusades.

do you mean chivalric searges?

BTW, sword rushing is definitely going to win the battle just like heavy cav rushing but may not be the best way to win cost effectively.

I also love it when I open with 16 swabians with silver armor mowing down everything (henry the lion turned out as swabian in my game so I had a good geenral too).

However, cheapo spears shielding hordes and hordes of archers is simply more cost effective when you can make the spear wall hold and let the archers be replaced by reinforcements while taking little casualties.

arrows don't cost money.

[matfender]

I agree with the idea of the shield wall/archers, but I have a related question: what happens when the enemy starts to turn your flank?

[katank]

flank is protected by curved spear wall and a few cav.

ideal is to be defense and set up in a corner position with half hexagon staggered spear wall and have reinforcement rally point inside the defensive wall and you could hold practically indefinitely.

use some cav while having a curved shield wall is you answer and this is more often used on defense than attack although it works well against rabble even while attacking.

besides, hollow squares is also doable although I've only used it once for kicks.

[Gregoshi]

Hello Kenseu and welcome to the Org.

Have you tried building spearmen in Brittany? You should try it - a lot of people think Brittany Spears is hot.