"Cool" historic german unit..

[Oleander Ardens]

As CA seems to try to get a good deal of distinct units per faction I further intensified my research. I have already posted a good deal in the .com forum trying to influence with Psycho the decisions of CA...


To come to the point:

Scanning through the rich Scandinavian rock-carvings I finally found the oldest know drawing of the throwing Axe later made famous by the Franks as Franciska.

I seemed to be the natural evolution of the great variety of wooden "Boomerangs" both found in the earth and shown in the art.

The axeblade is very similar to the Franciska with a strongly S-curved handle which finishes in a round counterweight. This tool looks by all meaning cool and deadly, and it seems that it was at least used in central Scandinavia by their (Germanic) farmers and Warriors in the RTW timeframe.

Now a axethrowing German unit with this unique weapon would both be cool and historical accurate, making all of us happy

[Longshanks]

Is there any evidence that the weapon was used in large numbers on the battlefield?

Just curious, as it seems more suited for hunting or one-on-one combat. I just can't imagine hundreds of warriors throwing axes on the battlefield.

[Kraxis]

Well Longshanks that was exactly what the Franks did before they became the French.

[Hurin_Rules]

I would absolutely LOVE to see francisca-tossing franks in RTW, but I think the time period would be slightly off. Not because the weapon couldn't have been around then-- as noted, there are earlier analogues-- but unless I am mistaken, the Franks as a distinct people don't appear in the historical record, I believe, until the time of Tacitus at the earliest (which would put them outside the frame of RTW). Now, I could be wrong...

But the Franks would be PERFECT for the expansion pack, which I hope will be the barbarian invasions.

[Kraxis]

Yes, they are rather far outside the game as it is now, but I was just proving a point.

[Oleander Ardens]

Trust me, I know that the Franks are out of the timeframe, but this rockcarvings date back even before the RTW periods starts...

That's what I tried to point out. I try to post as early as possible a pic of it out of the book;
Sorry by the way that didn't showed you the Nuragic Helms with their huge horns; Sourly I was not able to get this specific book as I changed the UNI..

As I said it is a neat unique design very similar to the Francisca with a S-Handle and a counterweight. This baby crys "Throw me"


And yes I was used to deliver a massive shock to a well-ordered enemy in close orders, but for more pratical info read this:

http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.l...ons/franc.html

Good reading

[shingenmitch2]

I don't claim to know anything about Oleand's research, but what he was saying is that this was pre-Franks, proto-francisca, and could conceivably fit into the RTW timeframe and be accurate. Very cool idea. I'd imagine these Germanics would have a back-up short sword.

I'd be all for this, even if it they went with the Franks themselves. I understand RTW is a bit early for them, but the the Egypt chariot is 1000 years late. At least they are a "real" people :)

[Oleander Ardens]

This proto-Fransciska was surly a nice answers against the close formations of enemy "Ger-mans", but for more info about their possible use use the link...


Yeah I'm too all for it, as the Scandinavians were part of the Germanic tribes. As I said I will try all I can to get this pic as fast up as I can, to share this new insight in Germanic warfare...

[Kraxis]

Well, if they were proto-Franks or not I don't know, but I know one thing, it is quite far from mid-Sweden to Franconia (yes that is the homeland of the Franks, between the rivers Sahle and Elbe, thus the Salic Law in medieval France) in Germany. Of course at this time the Germanians might not have inhabited Franconia, but there might have been Celts instead. I can only conclude that the Franks were included in the Gothic exodus from Sweden along with the Danes, but where the Goths went southeast from their initial landings in Poland, the Franks went southwest, and stayed there for some time like the Goths did in the east.

The weakness with this theory is that the Franks created a number of laws, the Salic ones, while the Goths didn't. At least we haven't heard of special laws from the Visigothic kingdom in Spain or the Ostrogothic kingdom in Italy.
Apparently the Franks stayed longer in Franconia than the Goths did in the east...

Btw, Oleander, it would be more than just great if you could get hold of that picture. It would answer a thing or two about the Bull Warrior (though we shouldn't expect that the hardline Bull Warrior haters will turn).
Are you sure it was a battlehelm, and not just a ceremonial one?

[Oleander Ardens]

Kraxis, I will try. But the helm is just part of some minature warriors, although most of their equipment has been proven by findings... In any way it is not direct proof, but more of an new insight...

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ May 05 2004,14:38)]Kraxis, I will try. But the helm is just part of some minature warriors, although most of their equipment has been proven by findings... In any way it is not direct proof, but more of an new insight...

Hmm... ok, I can see now that it won't exactly turn any oppinions. But I still think something to back it up would be important.

Back on topic.
I would love to see an axethrower unit of some sort. Like the Barbarian Spearman Warband, just with swords and Franciscas (and German only).

[PSYCHO]

Quote[/b] ]I just can't imagine hundreds of warriors throwing axes on the battlefield. - Longshanks

Oh I can

Interesting stuff OA It'd be great to a have a unit of Germans like this in RTW but I'd prefer to see them as an end game / elite sort of unit rather than a standard type.

Keep up the good work mate

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (PSYCHO @ May 06 2004,05:54)]

Quote[/b] ]I just can't imagine hundreds of warriors throwing axes on the battlefield. - Longshanks

Oh I can

Interesting stuff OA It'd be great to a have a unit of Germans like this in RTW but I'd prefer to see them as an end game / elite sort of unit rather than a standard type.

Keep up the good work mate

Nah, I can easily see them as some sort of Kerns, or perhaps a little better. Like a normal tribal unit with another function, of course this would make them better and would need to be higher up the techtree.

[Oleander Ardens]

Thanks guys for the support, today I will step into the UB again and lend it to scan the pic...

When you read through the comment of this guy how tried an Francisca you notice the word bounce.

Now after having seen the pic of this axe and having a good deal of experience in throwing/shoothing all kinds of stuff - there you see the eternal child - I can say that I have to agree with the conclusion of this guy.

Must be difficult to stop dozens of heavy hurling thingies flying in crazy curves through the air, bouncing randomly from shields, bodys and the ground

You could give this missile a special feature, here are some possibilites:

- disrupts the enemy formations ( there is a defined possibility that a ordered formation like a phalanx or a Roman line gets "disordered" )

- "negates" enemy shields ( the missile is not/partly affected by the shields of the enemy due to it's particular nature)

- causes a heavier loss of the enemy moral than other missiles (poor Roman sees many UFO coming straight toward him )


About the standard/elite type. I can see this throwing axe used by

a) linetroops in the phalanx with spear, shield, helm
b) shocktroops with a small shield and a normal axe/sword (spear would be more usual, but doesn't seem to fit in CA's vision)

[Oleander Ardens]

Sorry, but how do I upload a pic in the .psd format

I converted it now into the .gif, but what now..

Thanks Tricky Lady, I will try

I found it in the book:
Berge&Boote by Dietrich Evers (Beier&Beran, 2001)

[Tricky Lady]

I think you better convert it to a JPEG or TIFF format with Photoshop...

[Oleander Ardens]

Sorry is somebody out there able to host this pic?

Thanks for your help

[Tricky Lady]

Feel free to send it to me, I'll host it.
You can find my email address in my profile.

[Kraxis]

Faithfully waiting for it to show up here.~

[Tricky Lady]

Oleander Ardens, you can send me the PSD file. I'll convert it to a JPEG and host it.

Waiting for the file...

[Oleander Ardens]

I just sent you an e-mail, Tricky Lady

Btw in the meantime I will try to put this Throwing axe in a wider historical and technical context.

A polish researcher, P. Valde-Nowak found recently a straight-flying Boomerang dating back from 18300 BC. in a cave called NOWA BIALA in the western Carpats.

It is carved out of a mammunt's tooth and has a almost plain and a convex surface - the same principle we use nowadays to let tons of steel fly.

It is almost 70cm long and weights 850gr and reconstructions have shown that is well suited for an aimed throw...


Given the fact that humans did already combine stone, bone, wood and other materials like for spears it is easy to imagine that they used heavier and sharper materials to increase the lethality of their tools.

The specially designed throwing Axe is the ultimate development for warfare in this steady research...

[squippy]

Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ May 05 2004,11:15)]

Quote[/b] ] Scanning through the rich Scandinavian rock-carvings I finally found the oldest know drawing of the throwing Axe later made famous by the Franks as Franciska.

got any image links?

I had read this article on thebFrancisca before and I too find it convincing. The prominence of the weapon is explained by this theory.

[Tricky Lady]

Oleander, I'm sorry. I'm afraid your message didn't survive my spam filter...
Could you resend the file, I'll host it asap when I receive it.

[Oleander Ardens]

@Tricky Lady, could you PM me your e-mail, as the on-board e-mail doesn't give you the chance to attach files ..this is what I wrote to you and fell victim to your filter

Thanks

[Oleander Ardens]

BTW: Here are some links for the Francisca;

Note that the handle is supposed to be straight, or slightly curved, while the handle in the carving has the shape of the lower part of the S and a wooden? counterwheight.

Not that such a strongly curved axe has a longer "deadly window" on impact as it allowed the axe blade to swing around some 20-30 degree more than one with a straight handle.

Plus I strongly suspect that strongly curved handle gave the missile more speed as one could transfer it's energy for a longer way, as the back of the blade could almost touch the lower back when swung back.

http://www.axtwerfen.de/Thr_A_Axe_D_ENGL.htm

http://www.axtwerfen.de/_20010102-1400_Seite143_.htm

[Oleander Ardens]

Hope it made it this time past your spam filter, Tricky Lady

[Tricky Lady]

Yeah, this time the spam filter allowed your message.

...and here's your picture (finally eh?)

[Kraxis]

Very interesting, and by the way that is not found in Sweden but in Denmark, near the middle of Jutland (the main part of Denmark), actually in a suburb to the second city, Århus.

The counterweight wouldn't be of wood, if it is in fact a counterweight. It could very well be a precaution against the grip slipping, which is quite more likely with such a bended handle. Imagine standing there with the axe all the way back for a throw, when you apply the force into he throw the grip might slip... not very healthy. So that might be the reason.
Further a counterweight would weaken the throw somewhat.

[Oleander Ardens]

No it was found in central Scandinavia - Sweden; The text refers to the Boomerang above

I do however agree that the "counterweight" allows the thrower to get a better grip, and also eases the release.

An particular interesting detail is the shape of the upper handle, which long wooden extension above the blade should help fix the blade, so that it doesn't slip from the handle.
It helps also to reduce the stress on the rest of the handle when the Axe hits the target.

Thanks for hosting Tricky Lady

[Oleander Ardens]

Some other considerations of mine;

Note that the blade itself is almost identical to the ones of known "Franciscas". The upper corner of the blade is swung upwards and particular strong, as it is designed to hit the target and to achieve maximum penetration.

The lower corner of the blade is also designed to penetrate armor/shields - the elegant form of the blade is designed to obtain the best performance for throwing.

But the back of the blade differs greatly from the Francisca, as they usually have a rather long neck to spread out the shock of the impact of a larger area...

About their power. Test have shown that they penetrated rather easily a 24mm thick plate of oak;