If you going to moderate Part 2

[Redleg]

Still waiting for a response. It seems that Tosa closed the thread and stopped the conservation on an issue I deem to be critical to the fairness and treatment of all posters in this forum.

Is it taking time to respond because of the serious nature of my complaint. Or is it just being ignored and hope that it will go away.

[CBR]

Or because of weekend, family and good weather?

I have no doubt that Tosa will respond but Org is not a 24/7 service so please be patient.


CBR

[Redleg]

Patientience is not my strong point. But then again I also see the same type of behavior and moderators not responding to a PM and another message about posting styles coming up - when another poster in the tavern seems to be allowed to continue with their posting style.

Its about equal treatment.

[Voigtkampf]

Redleg,

you may PM me if you have anything to object, or just shout it out in the open. I've said it before and I'll say it again, there will be equal treatment for everyone. The same goes for everyone else. Show me a thread where you have been mistreated and if someone did you wrong, we'll straighten that out.

[Redleg]

Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ May 16 2004,13:41)]Redleg,

you may PM me if you have anything to object, or just shout it out in the open. I've said it before and I'll say it again, there will be equal treatment for everyone. The same goes for everyone else. Show me a thread where you have been mistreated and if someone did you wrong, we'll straighten that out.

Its almost in every thread - the abuse and offensive languaged used torward the conservatives in the traven is very easy to see. They cloud it behind sacrism and emotioncons and say its just criticism. I can remember the number of times I have been called nazi, facist, racist, imperialist, and other such terms in politicial threads by so called liberials.

And when a couple of us started to responded with just as harsh language and aggressive terms we get cautioned and told to stop - where the liberial posters are allowed to continue to post in the exaxt same way.

Fair is fair - if you are going to allowed one side of the conservation to be aggressive - you have to allow the other side. If you are going to caution one side you have to caution the other.

The post I placed in the previous thread that was done by Papewaio is done all the time by so called liberials and critics. And absolutely nothing is done, and it has been going on for over 2 years now. Where if a conservative or even an American gets just as aggressive we always get cautioned.

Its a critical issue that must be address before what you have is just one group of individuals posting continued offensive posts and the other group just leaving the forum. IT will quickly degenrate into what I have seen in other forums. For the most part the moderators have attempted to do a decent job - and I don't mind being cautioned publicily or privatily by the moderators. But they must treat the other side in the exact same way.

[Redleg]

Quote[/b] ] A. Saturnus
You have a point Redleg, I should have said something when Pape wrote that.
However, it´s not that I have acted differently because what Pape said suits my views. In fact I find what he wrote silly and he would probably agree with me. It is probably true that I react more sensitive to racism than to anti-Americanism. But I don´t find blatant anti-Americanism more acceptable.
The main reason why I didn´t respond to Pape´s post is that Pape has an outstanding reputation. He has a habit of taking some points absurdly far. But when he does so it´s clear that he´s not entirely serious. Everyone who visits the Tavern only partly regularly knows that Pape is far from being anti-American. So I assumed that no one would take what he said serious. Maybe I was wrong doing so. But it´s so that if anyone had addressed Pape about what he wrote, he would never have let it come to something like a flame war. He would have explained what he meant very civilly.
You on the other hand are a usual suspect for a flame war participant. Often enough you have admitted that what you do was wrong, but you keep on doing it. You have shown that you are not unlikely to cause problems. Therefore it´s not surprising that moderators are more alert about what you post than what less troublesome members post.

I admit that I have acted unfair when I did not caution Pape, but from a view point of someone who has to take care that the Tavern doesn´t go out of hand, I think it´s somewhat understandable.

We have had the conversation before. Why do I get involved in arguements? Why do they get heated?

Now since you seem to be clouding your judgement because of the past - I will point it out to you. Everytime but twice in the last 3 years - the heated arguements have started because of something a liberial poster has stated that was openly offensive and no action taken by the moderators concerning that individual.

You want me to list the number of time someone has directly called me a racist, nazi, facist, and a few ohers.

You are allowing aggressive anti-american hate filled posting - but are only correcting and cautioning those that get very personal or attack anything else other then americans. THis is not the first time we have discussed this issue.

I made my point - I did it on purpose after I saw Papewaio's post and nothing done by the moderators. That Sanin set himself up with a offensive remark and left it opened ended and refused to answer the question and gave it a flippant dismissial only goes farther in proving the point. You want the forum to be respectful and peaceful on every subject other then when it concerns America, Americans, and a few other things I have seen.

The point remains if you are going to moderate - moderate. Everything handled in the same matter. It doesn't matter about the past of the individual - it matters about the context of the post that you are reviewing. Frankly several of Papewaio's post in the past are offensive and you now have explained why you let him get away with it.

I can point out most of the problems I have had with members on this forum. If you wish - I remember fairily well the names of those who consistantly use insulting terms in their posts. Or cloud insults behind sarcism and emotioncons.


And as for reputations - you have even said I normally give great posts. So I hope you are now beginning to see my point. You must as a moderator evalute each individual post on its content - not on the reputation of the poster. To let offensive posts get a walk from one individual - but correct others for posting the same way is not being a moderator. Its something else entirily.

[Gregoshi]

Quote[/b] (Redleg @ May 16 2004,15:24)]

Quote[/b] ]I made my point - I did it on purpose after I saw Papewaio's post and nothing done by the moderators.

That is exactly what you shouldn't do. Many times the retaliation is worse than the original offense. A retaliation also takes some/all of the focus off the offender and on to you. By taking justice into your own hands you become part of the problem, which is something you don't want if you are expecting us to deal with the offender. Help us by not making things worse.

What you should do is contact (PM) the moderator team for the forum where the offense took place. If you contact only one moderator, you run the risk of catching that person when they may be unavailable for a day or two. Simply state the topic, the patron, what they said that was objectionable and why. Don't rant and rave as that takes focus off the offense and on to your emotional state. That is not to say you can't show emotion toward the offense, just avoid expletive laden comments directed toward the offender or situation. PMing us helps us in two ways. First, we may have missed the post in question. Second, we may not have been aware of how offensive the post actually is.

Example: before the second Gulf War last year, when France was leading the effort to oppose a US-led invasion, we started to see many French/weak military/surrender jokes and comments in our forum. Such jokes/comments were so common that our French patrons were becoming highly agitated by the endless barrage. Some started flaming back in response and got themselves in trouble (see "what you shouldn't do" above). At first we felt they were being overly sensitive to harmless jokes. It wasn't until things came to a head and one French patron pointed out the high volume of French bashing that was taking place, that we realized that even the "harmless jokes" had ceased being harmless and had turned hurtful. After that we became much more sensitive to French bashing and worked to suppress these jokes and "just kidding" comments. So, contrary to what some might think, we can learn/adapt.

The premise of this topic is "if you are going to moderate, then moderate." The corollary is "help us moderate and let us moderate." Work with us and together we can make these forums a better place.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

We shouldn't have to point it out as it is so consistent a blind man could see it. We point things out that are extremely offensive and get told no its not.

[Papewaio]

Redleg unless you are the Chief of Staff then the rant was not aimed at yourself.

The rant was a hyperbolic statement that took the trajectory of the current situation and hyped it up. Essentially I took the directoin and added massive amounts of boost to it... this distorts the situation but highlights the dangers. It was a vector that I have multiplied out.

I apologise to you if you think I am calling yourself a (neo)-Nazi or other disparaging slur.

[solypsist]

Keep in mind most of the Org staff are based in Europe.

for time keeping reasons, not as an explanation for their posting habits

[Redleg]

Quote[/b] (Papewaio @ May 17 2004,03:12)]Redleg unless you are the Chief of Staff then the rant was not aimed at yourself.

The rant was a hyperbolic statement that took the trajectory of the current situation and hyped it up. Essentially I took the directoin and added massive amounts of boost to it... this distorts the situation but highlights the dangers. It was a vector that I have multiplied out.

I apologise to you if you think I am calling yourself a (neo)-Nazi or other disparaging slur.

And its done consistently by other posters and when I or another conservatives do the same thing - we get cautioned.

We bring it up over and over again and the same basic unequal standard is always applied.

Yep Gregoshi - you are correct I should of PM the moderators, but been there done that and the same behavior is still allowed from many of the same posters.

[Redleg]

One of the things I am talking about is right here

http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....t=18299

Offensive statements made and letting people get away with it, just because its another topic on religion.

that thread should of been closed immediately after the initial inflammatory comment. Because that is exactly what that subject always degresses to, someone getting on there making offensive anti-relgious statements without censor.

Its fine to be anti-something. But once you put offensive language in it, and the intitial offensive language was the term "f*cking." That can be taken only one way by many of us, as nothing other then an offensive comment.

[Voigtkampf]

Redleg, if that should happen again, someone calls you Nazi or fascist or similarly attacks you openly, PM all the moderators again, and I assure you that it will not be ignored. The same goes for everyone else here.

I don't care about personal views of other people. I have my own and I keep them my own. All I care about is decent behavior here and the attempt to remain civilized. Someone is pro/contra American invasion of Iraq? I couldn't care less about their opinion; all I care is about the fact that these forums remain peaceful and dignified and no cursing or foul language or inappropriate attacks will be allowed.

Gregoshi is right; honestly, when isn't he? Don't take justice in your own hands, because it doesn't work on the forums. In a bar, only the biggest and dumbest (mainly both) guys ever went after me, and I always thaught them a lesson they didn't forget anytime soon, my last blue eye I got was when I was thirteen, and only beating I got ever since would be the one when I was sparing with my sensei. But online, everyone is a hero in a negative sense of the word and tries to annoy you, hiding behind their avatars and smileys. Don't take that bait. On one occasion I logged on to a familiar CoD clan server, and found myself fighting three opponents (autobalance wasn't on back then). I easily kept winning match after match, but eventually they kept sticking together and I got shot down. Immediately one of them went ranting. "What'ya gonna do now, you *****?" Instead of cursing back, I have instantly made a screenshot, mailed it to the Administrator and guess what? THE BAN.


Ergo, everyone should know that the best way is to remain cool and never start flaming. I remember how new patrons used to say how cool this place is, no flame-wars et cetera? Well, I'd like to see such posts again.

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (Redleg @ May 17 2004,08:04)]One of the things I am talking about is right here

http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....t=18299

Offensive statements made and letting people get away with it, just because its another topic on religion.

that thread should of been closed immediately after the initial inflammatory comment. Because that is exactly what that subject always degresses to, someone getting on there making offensive anti-relgious statements without censor.

Its fine to be anti-something. But once you put offensive language in it, and the intitial offensive language was the term "f*cking." That can be taken only one way by many of us, as nothing other then an offensive comment.

I saw it and I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't. I'll PM the rest of the staff immediately and we'll see about this one. I promise, it won't go away just like that. Two fellas I would like to have a word with, oh, yes, sir.

[Redleg]

I just might - but I still expect action to be done considering my complaint.

If the moderators are going to continue to allow one side to get away with comments without censor, sanction, or public caution then the problem will continue. Just look at what happened in the link I posted. Same old bad behavior is allowed to happen.

That is the issue. Lets start seeing some balance in the traven and how the moderators deal with the offensive posts. Lets actually see the offensive comments disappear.

Then just maybe I can change my posting style back to a less aggressive and more civil tone. I started out that way several years ago - and have found myself getting more and more aggressive in my posts because of exactly the reasons I have mentioned.

But until then at least I am man enough to accept my censor, caution, and sanctions when I violate the terms of agreement of the forum. I just expect the moderators to have the same standards throughout - not one for one group and another for another group.

[Dhepee]

Just to reinforce what Voigtkampf said, if you see any name calling, anything that you deem offensive, contact all of the moderators. We all have different schedules. It is impossible to predict when one of us will be in the Tavern, for instance my home life keeps me out on the weekends but I am present for about 8 hours everyday during the week. A PM to all of us guarantees that at least one of us will see the issue and take care of it as soon as possible.

If something offends you do not retaliate, two wrongs don't make a right, PM all of the Tavern Moderators and we will take care of it.

I try to be as impartial as possible. I will not moderate based on my own opinions but on the content of the post. If someone makes an offensive statement I won't cut them any slack regardless of their opinions or whether I agree with other posts that they have made. An offensive post is an offensive post, bottom line, and we all try to take care of posts in a fair evenhanded manner.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Quote[/b] ]Quote
Just a f*cking lunatic with some historical significance.


Certainly not the most inflammatory statement, but still, DemonArchangel, you could be a bit more respectful to the feelings of other members.

I think this shows our point. Certainky the moderator is aware of the complaint and gives the usual reply.

I then reiterate my complaint

Quote[/b] ]Quote
Certainly not the most inflammatory statement


Well it is to me and remember flame is in the eye of the beholder, I cannot think of any thing much worse I would rather he call me that. Then it wouldn't be as bad. Remember faith is a very personal thing. If I said Mohamed was a war mongering , child molesting lunatic I would consider that as bad and would probably and deservedly caught hell for it.

What happens? We get this

Quote[/b] ]muhammad was a war mongering, child molesting lunatic and a greedy one to boot, but of course, so were many, many, many,many,many other rulers

And this

Quote[/b] ]... jesus was a mentaly deranged idiot... if you ask me that is...

And not a word from the moderaters

[Voigtkampf]

Gawain, the topic is closed and the issue is being examined as we speak. Too bad I didn't see those posts earlier, but only after Redleg has brought them to my attention. It won't go quietly into the night.

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ May 17 2004,12:20)]Gawain, the topic is closed and the issue is being examined as we speak. Too bad I didn't see those posts earlier, but only after Redleg has brought them to my attention. It won't go quietly into the night.

I think the question here, Voigtkampf, is why was it closed? To end the discussion? Or was it to protect the perpetrators from flaming? If it was merely the former, then why did the offenders not recieve a reprimand?


Too many coincidences for us to just brush this off...

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ May 17 2004,11:43)]

Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ May 17 2004,12:20)]Gawain, the topic is closed and the issue is being examined as we speak. Too bad I didn't see those posts earlier, but only after Redleg has brought them to my attention. It won't go quietly into the night.

I think the question here, Voigtkampf, is why was it closed? To end the discussion? Or was it to protect the perpetrators from flaming? If it was merely the former, then why did the offenders not recieve a reprimand?


Too many coincidences for us to just brush this off...

Quote[/b] ]

DemonArchangel
btw JESUS WAS NOT THE SON OF GOD
Just a f*cking lunatic with some historical significance.



Lazul
... jesus was a mentaly deranged idiot... if you ask me that is...

This is why I closed the thread, TK. It should be obvious. I haven't heard anything from other moderators yet, but we are not 24/7 at the monitors, watching the Tavern. When we have counseled and decided what to do next, we will let you all know.

[Teutonic Knight]

I wasn't bashing you Voigtkampf, I was justing putting a question out into the open...

[Gregoshi]

I believe Tosa indicated he was going to be away for some family time. I've not seen him for a couple of days since that post.

Tosa will not let it drop as these types of issues are negatively affecting the forums. He implemented the Frontroom and supported the "club" threads recently in hopes these would ease some of the tensions, so I don't see him ignoring the issue at hand.

In the meantime, take a deep breath (everybody) and ponder what you can do to help alleviate the situation. I'm doing so too.

[A.Saturnus]

Redleg, I had gladly answered your PM but Tosa has asked not to do so. I think he will reopen the first thread about this issue when he´s back and we can discuss it there. Please be patient untill this happens.

[Redleg]

Once again its hard to be patient with something when it continues to spiral out of control on a constant rate, and it happened in the thread that I link here. It needs to be address and fix now - not some time in the future. I understand that Tosa has other obligations and commitments - so do we all.

But I get asked all the time to refrain from being aggressive in my responses, get caution publicly for the same posting style of more "liberal" posters and absolutely nothing is seen to be done to them.

The unfairness of it has begun to fester to a point that I have thought about leaving this forum to find another. But before I do that - I elected to bring it to everyone's attention.

Having it initially closed and then nothing done for 24 hours, just further frustrated me. So I chose to restart another thread to continue to voice - in my opinion - my very legitimate concerns.

Now I got to go to work - so for the next 10 hours I won't be available for comment.

[Mount Suribachi]

Redleg the mods are aware of peoples complaints and have said the issue is being dealt with, so for now we just have to wait and see what happens.

[Redleg]

I bring this up once again to illustrate a point, about my concerns on the direction the tavern has taken.

Quote[/b] ]Voigtkampf was entirely correct to close this topic. I just reopened it to place an explanation. I hope you can then understand my point of view.
Jesus is a historical person. For some people he´s an important figure for their believe. For others not. Calling him a lunatic is, from the viewpoint of the author, just a statement about a human being. As such I can´t see why it should be against the rules to make statements about this particular human being when you can the say the same thing about any other human being not part of the Org.
It wouldn´t be tolerant to put restrictions on members because of the beliefs of others. If I´d say "Beethoven was a loser" this could offend a lot of people. Should it be allowed? Is it offensive to say "god is dead"? Where is the line?
As I said, it is a sign of disrespect to speak this way when one knows how others take. But I think it´s also not a sign of respect to forbid others to say things because of your beliefs. A symbol may only be a symbol for you, please accept that others see it otherwise.
This is the reason why my initial reactions weren´t stronger. I hoped it would be possible for both sides to accept one another. Alas, it went different. Those who ignored my warning will be dealt with.

the line was crossed by the individual when he used the term "f***ing." when you add that word to a sentence you are no longer making an opinion - you have crossed into insulting and being offensive. Certain things should never be tolerated and using that word in context of any statement - makes that statement offensive or insulting.

While I agree that everyone should have the right to express their opinion - it should not cross clear establish lines of common decency and respect for other's beliefs. The use of foul language and certain terms insures that the comment can not be taken anyother way then as an insult.


Some of you are suggesting I wait to see what happens - but like I said earlier the point is beyond one of lets wait and see what happens - its a matter to be dealt with. I guess my only true choice at this time is to halt posting in the tavern since I see someone in one thread say "Dude, stop closing threads." Not a very mature statement from that individual. I refrained from blasting back at the individual - but could not refrain from commenting on his post.

Once again its become a very critical issue for me - one that a wait and see attitude will not cover.

[Voigtkampf]

Some things you cannot rush.

The Org is not a one-man-show; there has been progress, and we will see how things develop further. If we were to sit down together and counsel, it would be over within fifteen minutes, but like this, online, we have to wait until all of the staff has assembled.

I am now off for a work trip and will be back on Friday; that is simply the reality of our lives. Nobody is stalling you and covering up the issue, so I beg you once more for more patience.

Respectfully,

voigtkampf

[Redleg]

Quote[/b] (voigtkampf @ May 18 2004,00:44)]Some things you cannot rush.

The Org is not a one-man-show; there has been progress, and we will see how things develop further. If we were to sit down together and counsel, it would be over within fifteen minutes, but like this, online, we have to wait until all of the staff has assembled.

I am now off for a work trip and will be back on Friday; that is simply the reality of our lives. Nobody is stalling you and covering up the issue, so I beg you once more for more patience.

Respectfully,

voigtkampf

And I respectful ask to be allowed to vent in this thread in this forum instead of taking the issue out in the forum.

In this thread I can be more civil and controlled then I would in responding to some of the posts currently in the tavern.

[Papewaio]

F*cking has a different level of meaning in different countries/communities.

Other words in the Atlantic divide/around the world. Mind you with the internet it is blurring.

Fanny: Bum on one side. Female genitals on the other.
Fag: Gay men on one side. Cigarettes on one side.
FCUK: a clothing brand.

F*cking though is used to add emphasis (by those who don't have a particularly strong vocabulary mind you) it is used as an off colour adverb.

I think in relation to a sports match surrounded by mates it is okay. I don't think it should be used in reference to the Diety of anyone's religion other then Pan.

[econ21]

I agree the org should not accept swearing on the forums, but blanking out swearwords (f***) is on the borderlines here. Newspapers and now even UK tv trailers use that convention. I would favour the org taking a case specific approach to it.

Writing F**king about a deity (or individual org member) causes needless offence to many and so should not be acceptable.

However, I think I recently cursed the murderers of Mr Berg as b* somethings and don't think that should be moderated out.

I guess the standard should probably be whether a "reasonable person" could get offended or not.