1.03 Stat file

[Dom]

Well, it looks like a full out campaign to convert Shogun community to a new gameplay style has kicked off with a bang.

First of all, I must say that anything that gets done for the community brings good things in, however some innovations might not be as useful as they seem.

This new stat file does not solve problems that the Shogun community had. I agree, it makes some new and fun gaming but it is only aimed at the friendly games, and therefore at the people who stick to friendlies only.

Besides it has a few dodgy moments that will create more trouble than they have fixed. You just try shooting monks with Cavalry Archers...

let alone the windows for rushing.

Guns have less ammo now, WHY!?! what is th e point of winning a ranged duel if it has little bearing on the outcome? I guess none.

The whole nature of this patch suggest that it is only a cool set of stats, balanced to some players liking, but it has some way to go to bring actual balance into the game.


By all means do go and try it out, you can also play around with stats to see if you like them and the prog for quick swapping of the stats is really cool. But do not feel obliged to use these stats as they are not official, nor they are flawless. Keep an open mind guys!

[Khan7]

Dom Dom Dom... well, to address one point-- guns with less ammo--

1st of all, it it unlikely to make a damned bit of difference anyway, as in all likelyhood the missle phase of the battle will have petered out before you use half of that ammo. Believe me, the guns I've used for months now have had 10 ammo, and it has NEVER been a factor in any battle.

2nd of all, this is entirely realistic as one of the major limiting factors of using guns during this period of time in Japan was a shortage of gunpowder. There was not a single battle fought with guns during this period in which maintenance of ammunition over long periods of time was not a factor.

....

Now, as to the 1.03 stats in general-- frankly, on my first impression, having simply read the readme and studied the actual numbers, it appears to be a bit.. rough.. not necessarily unfinished, but rough. Having not tested them, I can say that on the face of it I was somewhat less impressed than I expected to be. Real judgement will have to come after some playtesting.

But for real, they've been out for a day and your ready to bash them head to toe like that? What the hell do you know? The designers have been working on them and playtesting them for months, I think they may have a bit better idea of how well they are balanced, as well as, well, everything else about them. Not to mention the fact that these are some of the most experienced modders in the community.

Now I'm not particularly jumping up and down for joy about v1.03 but to read you Dom makes me sick.

Matt

------------------
Shogun 2 now available for download! Comes with a nifty version-switching program, so never have to break a sweat! Click here NOW!!

To read all about it, click here.

[Boromir]

Matt,

I think you're being a bit harsh on Dom, He is merely making a valid point which is his own opinion. That sort of thing shouldn't make you sick.
Personally, I'm starting to worry that there is too much fiddling with the stats and it's changing the game that 100+ people used to regularly turn up online and play.
It seemed that a few more newbies were filtering into the game, and now there is an unofficial patch that will split the community again.
Just my humble and I'm sure not very popular opinion.
I would like to see a few things adjusted but am still happy to play the way it is.

Boromir...


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"Lets Hunt Some Orc"

[This message has been edited by Boromir (edited 06-06-2002).]

[Vas]

The new stats makes it more static and defensive and less competitive, which is good for new comers. But for those who seek challenge may enjoy the old stats more. Playing the new stats will get you sloppy with the old stats.

I do give a high credit for the new stats in terms of its fun, but for the fuck of it or the fun of it, here are some comments to share.


Originally posted by Puzz3D
Summary of the major changes in v1.03 relative to v1.02:

1) The rate of kills in hand-to-hand combat is slower giving more time to maneuver free units for flanking attacks and making units less likely to rout early.

Well, this is obviously two-sided, and why should credit goes to defenders?

2) Muskets kill less per volley, have longer reload, have a higher ratio of friendly kills, have less ammo (15), have lower hand-to-hand combat ability and more armor. It's now possible to rush muskets with a higher chance of success.

The idea is fine, but it looks like the gunmen should have h2h ability remained. In winter with heavy snow, they have a good chance of beating heavy cavalry h2h

3) Arqs have less ammo (10), a slower reload but fire more powerful shots.

Arqs have 10 ammo, Why? And why more powerful shots? Are these precious super bullets?

4) Yari ashigaru have lower morale and lower combat ability which means they will loose to every other infantry type, but with moderate upgrades will still be useful for protecting guns from cav and for chasing routed units with their high foot speed.

Well, not bad, but i don't know what's the worth of yari ashigaru if there's a better yari samurai. I think the best way to solve the problem is to link morale with combat ability, such as +2 with impetuous, -2 with uncertain, -4 with wavering. Let's see if it's available with MTW.

5) Samurai archers and cavalry archers use the same bow to allow Mongol light cavalry to have a bow with different characteristics. Samurai archers have more (36) ammo and less hand-to-hand combat ability while cavalry archers have less (18) ammo and less armor so that they remain inferior to foot archers in ranged combat.

Why should the cav archers have less ammo than the samurai archers? Because they are the cav archers?
On the second, I don't see why they should be made even more inferior to foot archers. Is it because they are the cav archers???

6) Warrior monks have slightly better hand-to-hand combat, higher morale and less armor which brings them back as a threat worthy of their 550 koku cost with archers being their mortal enemy.

Without armour, they may not worth 550 koku even suppled with better hand-to-hand and morale...But I'd like to see a bullet penetrate several warrior monks.

7) Naginata slightly improved hand-to-hand combat and morale to balance the improvement to warrior monks, although, they will still loose to warrior monk when in engage-at-will.

They sure deserve somewhere around +0.1 attack and +0.2 morale.

8) Cavalry charge increased to keep it's balance relative to warrior monk and naginata without increasing it's strength relative to yari infantry.

What about a decent +0.3?

9) Turning speed of yari samurai, yari ashigaru and naginata slowed down to represent clumsy weapon and heavy armor. Affects combat ability.

This is a fine idea but I would like to increase their range of melee a bit to represent their longer weapons too.

10) Turning speed of yari cavalry, naginata cavalry and heavy cavalry increased to improve maneuverability. Affects combat ability.

There should also be something like +2 attack if you drift-attack the footy. Otherwise, I think their maneuverability may get them die faster.

11) Kensai armor lowered to zero since ranged units have such a difficult time hitting a single man. Run and charge speed raised.

I'd suggest their armour reduced to 4, so they may be effective in early Era. Otherwise, they should stay in much more early Era !

12) Battlefield Ninja stars slightly improved to increase killing rate, run and charge speed increased.

This is interesting, but the more realistic improvement should be to take away their magic of concealing on open ground and allow them to conceal in the forest even no matter what they are doing. I suppose they can jump from trees to trees unleashing 5 stars simultaneously.

13) Mongol heavy cavaly restored to 60 men, slowed down to Japanese heavy cavalry speeds, slightly less morale, less hand-to-hand combat power, closer spacing between men and turning speed decreased.

And the Japanese heavy cavalry should be changed to 48 men, with legendary charge speed, slightly better morale, more hand-to-hand combat power, wider spacing between men and turning speed increased.

14) Mongol light cavalry restored to 60 men, more (50) arrows of less power but higher accuracy, faster reload, less armor, closer spacing between men and turning speed decreased.

I don't see how their arrows come with less power...Is it the idea of using wood arrowhead? They might manufacture more crappy arrows this way.

15) Korean Skirmisher has less ammo, less range and less armor.

Better is less accuracy for more ammo, less penetrating power for better range and less defense for more armor.

16) Korean Spearman has slightly less hand-to-hand combat ability and less armor.

Why's the Japanese spearman so much better than the Korean spearman?

17) Korean Guardsman has less armor.

Please, don't want crappy guardman turn trash.

[This message has been edited by Vas (edited 06-06-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Vas (edited 06-06-2002).]

[Catiline]

Khan, you're over reacting. Dom makes some valid points, you may not agree with them, but don't bother trying to cause trouble over it.

Vas,

On Cavalry Archers and Samurai Archers.

CA have less armor and less ammo, making them worse shooters than SA. But CA are mounted. They retain the super-charge bonus cavs have...they have speed...you can move them to the flanks fast..and can be used hth.

In 1.02 I am confident to say that the CA was too strong actually!

Tera.

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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka.
evil is within us...

[Vas]

To Tera,
Vas actually thinks Cav archer is almost balanced to perfect in the old stats. And Vas was just trying to neutralize the situation.

P.S. Vas looking forward to play you 1v1. 'Try to beat him'

Cav archers are also quite difficult for the inexperienced player to use well, I use them fairly good but if you really want to see the full potential of the CA play the top guys.

And if CA were perfectly balanced I don't know why Tosa and Yuuki edited them then!

Tera.

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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka.
evil is within us...

[Dom]

hey, hey, hey, go easy on Khan7 guys :-) his bleeding heart still aches from the wounds received in an attempt to defend Nazis in the offtopic forum, but I really hope that he can let his frustration out in there and keep it nice and friendly in here.


Now as to the point of what the hell do I know, I should say that I have downloaded the patch, looked over the changes, had a game with MizuTosaInu and then went for some offline testing coming back to play with another couple of guys. After that short period of time I found that:

Ashi problem has not been solved, they merely were rendered useless. Assigning them to defend flanks against cavalry charge simply means that unless attacked by cavs they are not good for anything else.

Now as to making guns less useful - it means that guns do not make any significant impact on the later h2h combat. Now, if you do not want guns to influence the course of battle, and in the new set of stats they barely do, then why bother taking them in the first place? I have been playing friendly only games on hilly maps and whoever played me know that I very rarely take guns at all. And was happy with that. And when coming on a flat maps I enjoyed some gun duels.

Now, the ammount of damage arrows can do to warrior monks is simply too much. The main wisdom of using Cav Archers is to kill more units than what they cost themselves and with an added benefit of some flanking funcions when ammo is out (c) MagyarKhan. in the 1.03 set of stats it is barely challenging, as the Cav Archers will still do their job even while being shot by a unit of archers or muskets.

I really think that guys over at CA should make changes and all the necessary compromises. When modders do that, however prominent and well-respected they are it doesn't feel right. These guys do it anyway, they make a lot of mods and fool around with them and its cool. Khan7 for example has been playing with 10 ammo for muskets for example, but bringing it about not as another set of stats but making entire community their playground for mod testing is not very.... should I say noble? I can make another set of stats tommorow and then what? Do we switch over to it altogether? No, unless you like it that much.

to the players : unless you like this set of stats a lot, do not use it, that's all.

to the modders: guys I really appreciate what you are doing for the community and keep up the good job. Good luck with all you do, but this time you breached some sort of unwritten code of modders practice... IMHO.

Regards, Ryurik

[Vas]

Well, to explain why I think they're not overpower, I put the three most frequently used ranged troops in a comparison.

A rough generalization is that samurai archers decimate musketeer at the maximum range, but musketeer beat cavalry archers probably becoz of the latter's accuracy, and at last cavalry archers beat samurai archers because the latter has less armour and archers don't seem to be as good on cavalry.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

Sorry our knowledge of the new stats is too limited to add something to this topic. STill we want to encourage the people to write their comments.

our Khan did play 1 game with the Mongols and it seemed more ok than it was before, namely he lost

boro made a valid point as well since this is a small community patch thing it will be hard to convince the major group/newbees to dl and install it.

[Orda Khan]

Mongol heavy cavalry restored to 60...good
Slowed down to Japanese h/c speed...hmmm
Slightly lower morale and h2h....hmmm
Slower turning ability.....hmmm. Are they still going to be effective? I was happy to pay 800 koku for a good unit. Will this now be a good unit or will it be an expensive replica of Japanese h/c?
Mongol light cavalry restored to 60....good
More arrows..good Less powerful..hmmm More accurate faster volleys....hmmm ok then
Less armour..(they got any?) Slower turning speed.........!!!! wot!!! Speed was their strength. If I take these stats along with the reduced infantry stats (by the way I think the guardsmen needed more not less, they bad enough already) I begin to wonder if Mongol army ever likely to win. Their units work out too expensive, and now they all been weakened. I will try it to see for myself but this don't seem fair.
I do agree whole heartedly with Boromir. I not played online very long but have noticed a decline in numbers, regular names been absent for a while etc. Could this be the sort of thing that makes others leave? Even with a quick swapping file you still have to log off? I picture following :-
3v3 lush map...hmmm join game damn v1.03...
goes to swap.Returns....game gone dammit.Ah there's another...damn v1.02 ...goes to swap etc, etc.....Oh sod this I'm off.
I hope this will not be the case, but....
I think the people involved in trying create a more balanced game with more realistic nature of units deserve much praise. They are trying to create a more historically accurate feel to the battlefield, rather than a shoot out in Dodge city. A longer, more attritious battle may be a good thing. I make no odds I do not like guns so if this mod creates more hand to hand and strategy then I'm all for it but judging by the armies that have blown my armies to pieces I doubt others will feel the same.
But I do feel that for historical accuracy the Mongols should not be weakened.
.......Orda


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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."

[Puzz3D]

Dom,

No one is being forced to use the v1.03 stat. The v1.02 is included in the distribution, and hardcoded into the main executable for online comp games. I guess you take issue with calling the new stat v1.03. We called it that because it is an enhancement of the player made v1.02 stat. CA/DT made the v1.02 patch but didn't make the v1.02 stat, and has ended patch development for both STW and WE/MI. All we get now is what we do ourselves.

Guns are still important in v1.03. You just can't put them out in front of your army and have them repel everything that comes up to attack them. If used well, you can still kill over 100 enemy troops with a musket unit.

Yari ashi are still useful, but they won't kill monks and no-dachi, and they can't be sent off alone to attack the enemy lines. With a few very cheap upgrades they can handle cavalry, and their high speed makes them the best infantry chase unit.

Getting advantageous unit matchups is more important in v1.03 than it is in v1.02.

MizuYuuki ~~~

[Wavesword]

What I don't quite understand is why these stats are being released given that we know they will break down at 10000 koku. I think Long John2 stated the old stats worked at 5000, but broke at 7000. Surely you're simply going to raise the koku that people are playing at again? I appreciate the work you've done for them, but I just don't think that the general public want 'balanced' stats. Guns have always been the problem because of totomi and ironing board maps being dominant, and that's where they're supposed to be dominant! You would be better off encouraging battles on a variety of maps via some kind of 'reward' system, a whole tournament on relatively tough maps would be a good idea!

[Dom]

Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:
Dom,

No one is being forced to use the v1.03 stat.
[/QUOTE]

Of course not, Yuuki, the information given clearly states that. I am just trying to emphasise that, that's all.

Regards, Ryurik

[Khan7]

What makes me sick is the armchair theorizing.

I see a whole lot of "I think"s and "I bet"s and "it must be"s.. but no "I tested it and gave it the benefit of the doubt and so therefore my opinion is"s.

For the love of god it's just bad science.

Matt

------------------
Shogun 2 now available for download! Comes with a nifty version-switching program, so never have to break a sweat! Click here NOW!!

To read all about it, click here.

[Dom]

Quote Originally posted by Khan7:
What makes me sick is the armchair theorizing.

I see a whole lot of "I think"s and "I bet"s and "it must be"s.. but no "I tested it and gave it the benefit of the doubt and so therefore my opinion is"s.

For the love of god it's just bad science.

Matt

[/QUOTE]

Can you be more specific, please, what you are so not happy with in my first post? And by all means DO quote

Regards, Ryurik

[BlackWatch McKenna]

Someone asked about Mongol Armor.

My recollectionn is that it was a combo of a padded over shirt and a silk under garmet. The importance of the silk being: If an arrow went in, it could not pierce the silk. So, you carefully pull the silk shirt, and arrowhead, out of the entry hole/wound!

Pretty snazzy, if you ask me.

// blackwatch

p.s. I would be interested to hear our Khan's opinion of that.

p.p.s. Is he our Khan if he's not my Khan? I am not quite sure, but out of respect I will call him Our Khan.

[Dionysus9]

Wavesword:

Why do you suggest that flat maps favor guns so much? I hear this all the time, but I dont really understand what people are getting at. Perhaps it is just my playing style, since I disfavor guns and prefer cavalry and archers.

Cavalry is most effective on a flatter map, as it does not tire as quickly, and can charge a long way in a short time.

Guns are even more effective when they enjoy a height advantage (it increases range and accuracy). Furthermore, you can stack guns behind eachother on a hill without obstructing the line of sight of the lower guns.

If you doubt this, try a Custom Battle experiment:

First charge YC at a unit of musks in hold/hold formation on a flat map (I'd select YC because it will be easier to notice the difference in guns effectiveness against YC than it would be against NC or HC).

No park the guns on top of a nice tall hill and try the same thing.

The guns will do much better from a hill.

So why is there this perception that guns are more powerful on flatter maps?

I think it is because it is nice and easy to keep the guns lined up on a flat map, and thus easier to move the army around as a group and retain proper formation/facing. But for the experienced player, these issues shouldnt be a concern.

I dont think the problem is with flat maps, or even with guns.

[Khan7]

Dionysus-- well, guns don't work in trees, and in the case of extreme hills (such as in Shinano), their LOS will get blocked by their smoke ( godamnit!).

I think it is a generally accurate statement to say they are much more powerful on flat terrain.

DOM-- it's not so much what you're saying as much as the ridiculous tone. First of all, there are certain things you (and others) have said that I can say from my modding experience are just plain WRONG anyway. And the rest of it, considering that you've played the stats for so short a time, while they have been worked on and balanced for months by the designers, and tested without protest by "veteran" players... really, you can't say all you're saying. Anyone ever hear of the scientific method??? Sheesh..

Anyway, I don't think anyone will benefit from this spat continuing so my participation in it is immovably over.

Matt

------------------
Shogun 2 now available for download! Comes with a nifty version-switching program, so never have to break a sweat! Click here NOW!!

To read all about it, click here.

[Wavesword]

Well of course guns and archers will be more effective on hills, but archers can actually fire indirectly over hills so they have an ability which guns do not- discounting Kraellin's 'mortar' stats for TB which I think I'd like to try! My point is simply that where the playing environment is 7000 koku, ironing board, summer, 1vs1, a set of stats correcting imbalances here is liable to affect play on other maps. (The ashi upgrade problem (I'm told) was a problem with 1.02 because of the amount of koku, not because of the basic troopstats.

[Orda Khan]

Blackwatch, yes the Mongols wore a robe that was insulated rather than padded and in later times Chingiz Khan made his men wear a silk under garment for precisely the reason you quoted. It staunched the bleeding and allowed the arrow to be rotated so to speak out of the flesh leaving less damage.

With regards my other moan about logging on and off etc, ignore me it is so easy.
Once you know what file you require it is simple.
The file name is 10xswap. Make a short cut to desk top. When you joining game and it is 1.03 alt/Tab to desktop open file make selection and go back to foyer.
There is nobody worse on computers than me and with a little help I sorted it. It will take time to get used to but a simple password 103 solves a lot of hassle.
Give it a try, my men STILL run hehe.
.......Orda