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Thread: MTW Economics 101

  1. #1
    Member Member mbrasher1's Avatar
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    I know that frog beast has a good guide for newcomers. This post illustrates the economics of MTW.

    The keys to your MTW economy are mines, agriculture, trade and governors. This is on the income side of the house.

    Mines

    If you invest in the mines, the first mine yields a return of about 10% (example: salt mines cost 250 florins, and yield an additional 26 in revenue). The upgrade results in a return of 5%. You have to spend more to get a smaller percent increase. In economics this is called diminishing returns. So prioritize your mines by building the first level in all provinces before you build the second in any.

    Agriculture

    Most people know that you should focus your agriculture investments on the most productive provinces. Most provinces are profitable to make the first 20% upgrade. Even so, since each investment costs more and gives you the same 20% increase, returns are diminishing.

    Ex. Take a province with 300 florins from ag.
    20% upgrade (costs 600) = 60 extra florins
    40% upgrade (costs 1000) = +60 more
    60% upgrade (costs 1500) = +60 more
    80% upgrade (costs 2500) = +60 more

    so the yields are:
    20% upgrade = 10 percent
    40% upgrade = 6 percent
    60% upgrade = 4 percent
    80% upgrade = 2.2 percent

    You can figure out how many years your investment will pay off by dividing 100% by the the yield. An investment that yields 2% will take 50 years to pay off.

    Another big fat law of diminishing returns for ag.

    Trade

    After that, there’s trade. Trade’s returns are not diminishing, but increasing. The more you invest in your trade network, the greater your returns. I recorded some information from a recent game as the Turks.

    With 5 ships and 3 ports built in Antioch, Tripoli and Egypt, and 2 captured in Greece and Constantinople, I built a small trade network for:
    2250 florins (3 ports)
    3000 florins (5 ships)
    2400 florins (3 trading posts – 2 others were captured)
    1200 florins (2 docks)

    And just like that my trade network is producing 1150 florins yearly. If I invest 8850 and get 1150, that is an annual yield of about 13%, even in its initial stages, far superior than most other economic investments.

    Then after 5 more years, I have built 3 more ships. My total investment is now 10,650 but the increased network is now giving me an additional 2300, or a total annual yield of over 20%. (A little more complicated: look at the extra investment and the extra return. I added 1800 florins to my investment and increased my return by 1150 per year compared to the earlier first trade period. This is called the marginal return, and it exceeds 60 percent.)

    By the time I reach Portugal, I now have 23,450 florins invested in my trade network, which totals 19 ships (and new ports/trading posts in conquered Crimea, Khazar, Nicea and Bulgaria). My profits from trade are now 12,300 annually. This is a 50% return on my initial investment. It pays me back every other year. And then again. And agan.

    Then after building enough ships to reach the Baltic, I have spent 30,650 on my trade network. It gives me 26,500 in florins per year. This return is almost 90 percent. Though it took me 20 years to build, my entire network nearly pays for its cost every year.

    I did not add the costs of the fort and keep, as they are not direct costs of trade and I’d build them even if trade did not exist.

    The advantages of trade?

    Besides the profits for continual upgrades and more units, it:
    Secures your coasts from invasion, letting you mass your armies on the frontier
    Allows you to move troops from production areas to trouble areas quickly (side benefit of ports)
    Captures some benefit from the trade of others in the form of import taxes

    Do wars break out between you and your trading partners? Unless it breaks out right at the beginning of your construction, you have likely come out ahead.

    Note: this analysis does not include the costs of maintaining ships. Such costs are quite small compared to the cost of the ships themselves. It would reduce the returns, but not enough to displace trade from being the easiest way to accumulate huge amounts of florins. OTOH the taxes I get from trade were also not included, which would increase the returns.

    Governors

    Since govs add 10 percent to your florin income per year per accumen hash mark they have, govs can be a decisive impact on your economy.

    Since I tend to try to put my richest provinces under a high accumen gov, I checked and I was getting a 66% bonus from governors for their accumen. This is often the difference between adding profit and loss when you have huge expensive armies.

    Investments

    I was struck by the poor returns in most of the economic investments in MTW. Besides the first ag, mines and trade (which I feel is very unbalancing for the AI -- the trading player ends up with Spanish lancers fighting against mounted sergeants), the investments mostly stink and might take 50 years to payback.

    That's OK, though. If you have sufficient florins to see you through a long period, make the investment. While the returns are low, the return on unspent florins is even lower -- zero. If you have the money to see you through rough patches and trade wars, make even the low-yielding investment.

    Costs

    Every king should be sensitive to costs, and trying to get the best bang for your florins. Disband or use recklessly your low quality troops -- the upkeep on them is usually just as high as more modern units. I tend to use my lower quality (outdated spearmen, UM, whatever) troops to storm castles. The upkeep on these guys is very expensive.

    Also expensive past a turn or two are mercenaries. Use them as cannon fodder or in the most dangerous assault. Or disband.

    Also, get to know how much the troop types cost. Remember that the life cycle cost of a unit includes the upkeep you pay in periods of peace. Let's say that your units last an average of 20 years (it obviously depends on how aggressive you are with that unit). A jinete will cost 1050 florins (250 acquisition cost and upkeep for 20 years). A steppe cavalry would cost 925. The jinette gives you better value for the money than the steppe cav.

    Here are some units with REALLY low upkeep costs (compared to their substitute)

    (compare with 53 for CMAA, 45 for FMAA)

    gallowglasses 22 florins
    highland clansmen 22 florins
    militia sergeants 30 florins

    crusading knights 50 florins (compare to 85 florins for CK upkeep)
    Tucroman foot/Genoese archers 30 florins (compare at 37 for regular archers
    Gothic knights 60 florins (vs 85 for CK)
    arbs/crossbows 22 florins (vs 37 for archers)
    Gothic sergeants 37 florins (compare to 63 for CS)

    Units with high upkeep??

    Porno cav 125 florins
    Katanks, boyars 105 florins
    RKs 62 florins
    trebizond archers 53 florins (compare to 30 florins for bulgarian brigands)

    Obviously, just because JHI's upkeep is higher than saracen infantry does not mean you won't use them. And the byz player who does NOT use TAs is not wise. But avoid getting crushed by the numbers. Too many troops can be a great hindrance in the early/mid game, as you are fighting off rivals, building a trading network and making investments that have not yet paid off and trying to squeeze enough to invest in modern facilities.

    Lastly, be aware of the discounts that your faction receives. Most people knows where billmen should be built (Mercia). But many people do not know the discounts that each faction gets in the troops it buys. The discount is 25 percent.

    Turks
    discount on Ghazi infantry and Khwarazmian cav

    Italians
    discount on HGs and arqs

    France
    discount in CS, CMAA, CK and xbow/pavise xbow

    Egypt
    discount on Bedou camel

    Germany
    discount on GK Turcopoles and Gothic Sergeants

    Russia
    discount on HA and woodsmen

    Danes
    discount on vikings

    Byzantine
    discount on Genoese archers and naptha throwers

    English
    discount on plain archers and gallowglasses

    Don't get hung up on these discounts -- the Germans are usually a long way from Antioch's high quality turcopoles, but they get a discount if they get there.



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    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    nice job with that post.

    something to add would be that for farms, a rough estimate on profitability of investment is to right click the farm upgrade icon where it would give you the amount of florins gained from the upgrade. If that is 10x the percentage of farm upgrade, then it's worth it to invest in that immediately.
    ie. if you right click on the 20% upgrade and see 300, then it's worth it.

    however, if you righ click and it says 100, then it's not worth it unless you have cash to burn.

    this is based on a rough 20 yr. rate of return.

    BTW, build mines rather than farms first as it takes longer to pay off so give it time to pay it off.

    this is some economic costs.

    the unit upkeep and unit discounts is pretty interesting, some of which I didn't know.

    I disagree on the 25% reduction part tho. I played a nov campaign recently and the woodsmen cost 62 fl. which is about 16% off 75 fl., not 25% off.

    anyhow, good job

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    A Veteran Wargamer Member kiwitt's Avatar
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    It may be worth examining the effect of different merchants levels as well.

    e.g.

    Trade Post
    Merchant
    Merchants Guild
    Master Merchant



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    Member Member Phatose's Avatar
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    According to VI 2.01, there are a whole bunch more discounted units. Too many to list, but there its easy enough to check with gnome.

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    Urwendur Ūrībźl Senior Member Mouzafphaerre's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

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    Great post, thanks

    About the merchants... I've grown some principles of upgrade as follows:

    Coastal Provinces:

    1 trade good...........Merchant
    2 trade goods..........Merchant's Guild
    3+ goods...............Master Merchant

    Landlocked Provinces:

    1-2 trade goods........Trading post
    3 goods................Merchant

    (Syria has exceptionally larger trade income, hence up to Master Merchant.)

    These are completely intuitional, based on mere observations during gameplay. Therefore, more precise rules would be welcome.


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    A Veteran Wargamer Member kiwitt's Avatar
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    RE: Merchants.

    I will save some money/time here, not building merchants all the way up to master.
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    Member Member mbrasher1's Avatar
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    The optimal merchant building level depends on (1) what trade goods you have and (2) how big your network is.

    If you have a small network and the trade good is grain (which gives you a low return AND is in alot of provinces which you do not get a return for because the trading partner has that good) then upgrading doesn't make much sense.

    But if you have (or expect to have) a ship in each sea area, then at least the second merchant upgrade is worthwhile.

    For Antioch, Tripoli, Venice, Khazar, and Constantinople, the highest merchant building is worth it.

    I guess I really should do some numbers to see how it works, but the returns are skewed by the governor level. For example, in a recent game, one province producing grain gave me 30 florins per turn per port it was exporting to. Another gave me 37. I assume that the difference was the result of the governor.

    If you have a better governor, it compounds the return from the building.

    So, put your best accumen governors on high trade provinces, and build good trade buildings.

  8. #8
    Urwendur Ūrībźl Senior Member Mouzafphaerre's Avatar
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    Cool

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    Personally, I check how much income the current facility provides first and then upgrade if I find it promising.

    My network is usually the widest or second from early on so...
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  9. #9
    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Boxteroid Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Excellent post.

    A few extra hints from a trade-minded player:

    IMHO, you should always, always, always trade I must admit I find it difficult to see how it could be possible to win the game on any reasonable difficulty level without some form of trade going on. Use your trade income to fund the development of your provinces, including farms and mines, rather than the other way around.

    Always put your money into ships, ports and merchants, unless you are landlocked. There are certain factions where it is almost a given that you must trade to survive: the Danes are a classic example. In the case of the Polish, you must try and find a way to the coast, either to Moldavia, Kiev, Crimea, and Khazar to the south-east or more likely to the north with Prussia and Pomerania, perhaps expanding to the Baltic ports and the Scandinavian countries. Make it your first priority.

    If a faction with whom you do not have a land border attacks your naval fleet, there are two possible resolutions for the trader:

    1st: if you have naval superiority, destroy their fleet and withdraw from their coastlines. You will then, after one turn, default back to neutral, and trade lines will be re-established. If you destroy their fleet, you are also less likely to suffer another attack and your trade routes will be safer.

    2nd: If you are unlikely to win a full-scale naval encounter, just withdraw from any sea in which they have a fleet, and from any sea that your enemy has a coastline. Once again you will default back to neutral. However, this time make sure you have local naval superiority before putting your fleet back into harms way.

    You will usually only need mines and farms when you are at war with either a power with a large navy, or one with a substantial number of ports. Your trade income will be badly hit in both these scenarios. Ideally, you want your farm/mine income to cover your support costs, hopefully with a little extra. Speaking of which, I usually try to have a substantial war chest before embarking on a long campaign with such a power, usually enough to fund 20/30 turns without any trade income, and factoring in any building/replacement unit costs.

    Once you have established a good trade income from your local defendable provinces, you should have sufficient funds to expand. I try to cherry pick other good trading provinces, ones that will justify have a large stack of units simply for their protection. Any 3 trade good province will satisfy that, as well as a number of 2 goods e.g. Flanders, Antioch, Khazar, Lithuania, Egypt, Constantinople. The latter one comes with one reservation: almost all crusades, excepting the Spanish (and perhaps the Italians, if they have a large fleet), will pass through Constantinople in the normal course of events. This brings a deal of hassle, even if you allow them to pass through: you lose some of your finest men (if you are Catholic) and you lose money, which if you are quite rich, can be substantial.

    Always take advantage of rebellions so that you won't have to declare war on a faction. Rebellious provinces that also have profitable tradable goods include: Khazar, Pomerania, Prussia, Ireland, Lithuania, Livonia, and Portugal, the last two being the most rebellious in the game. Judicious use of spies in these provinces can reap great rewards. Use your emissaries to bribe not just high command generals, but high acumen units as well, preferably ones you can retrain. Rebels are always cheaper than national armies. I normally don't get much higher than 4 feathers in my generals without any virtues, but I can usually find a governor with much higher stats around the board. Remember to check the whole stack, not just the commander.

    An exception to the rebel rule is crusade won lands, where the victorious faction usually has no land border. Antioch and Tripoli are two such lands, and both are very rich for the trader (and the farmer). As an example, say you are the Danes, and the Spanish have just conquered Antioch. You will most likely have no land border with Spain, so you just attack in large numbers, secure the province, withdraw your fleets from Spanish waters, and wait for a turn as above. You can now free trade with the Spanish port, the Spanish fleet allows safe passage for your troops and trade, and you are now in possession of one of the richest provinces in the game, capable of supporting a huge army all on its own.

    Generally, it's not worth it for just one tradable good, unless it is Ireland, where you don't need to maintain a garrison for defence. A hundred or so peasants, border forts, and a spy will more than do for that province, raking in ~1000 florins per annum if you have a sufficiently large fleet. OTOH, keeping 1000 troops in the Crimea to gain access to one tradable good (grain), which only has a rating of 30, is poor business. You are unlikely to reap much of a reward unless you conquer its two surrounding provinces, and that can be risky before the Horde has arrived.

    FYI, this is a complete list of the tradable goods, and their relative values:

    glassware 40, wood 20, furs 40, wine 40, wool 30, silk 40, cotton 30, linen 30, wax 20, honey 40, salt 20, hides 30, butter 20, pottery 30, fish 20, spices 50, gems 50, sugar 40, dyes 50, ivory 40, olive oil 30, grain 30. This tells you why Antioch, with its gems, spices and silks, is so profitable

    Another worthwhile tactic is to take and hold the Scandinavian countries (including Finland and Novgorod) and the British Isles (plus Flanders if you can manage it). Both are easily defendable, are fairly rich in tradable goods, and the English are usually preoccupied in France, and the Danes are usually quite weak.

    Ireland is also an excellent province to develop into a ship-producing region. Just as it's good to dedicate a couple of regions to unit production, especially if they have the iron resource, it's equally a good tactic to do the same for ships.

    Once you have developed your lands, have access to the best units with armour and weapons upgrades, and have a war chest of a million or so florins, it's time to knock some heads together In fact, once you have such units you can usually just frighten you enemy into retreating. Even peasants become formidable with Attack+4, Defence+4, morale +6 from buildings, not factoring in any bonuses from your general.

    A favourite tactic of mine is to attack not only the province you want, but also to attack any escape route. For instance, say you hold Scotland and you want to quickly defeat the English and gain their trading lands. You attack Northumbria, where the English have a fair stack of units, in overwhelming strength. You also use your naval ability to attack Mercia, cutting off any retreat. More often than not Mercia, not being a border region, will be lightly defended, so you won't need many invaders to force the retreat. The English will retreat (probably to the garrison) in both provinces, but their main force in Northumbria will be captured. Similarly, if you have Papal problems, attack all the English provinces in Britain in one turn, capture all their forces bar their garrisons (if they choose to retreat there), and then storm the castles the next turn. The Pope will warn you, but you will have won what you wanted within the 2 turns, and so he'll be happy enough.

    Well, that's quite enough to get you going as a merchant methinks.
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    Member Member Phatose's Avatar
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    Out of curiousity, are y'all factoring in the cost of the castle upgrades required to build the higher merchants? I mean a master merchant is more expensive then a trading post as is, but if you want one you'll also have to pay for the citadel. No small expense.

  11. #11

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    Very good post

    I wanted to post something similar long ago, but I didn't do it (too much work). I do have some (theoretical) additions.

    1) Your income is specified in 2 files: the building_production file and the files in campmap\startpos. Every specified income value in these files is 100 times the weekly revenue, so they have to be multiplied with 0.52 to have the yearly return.

    2) No further multipliers are applied to the income in the building_production file (cathedral and mine income), the incomes specified in the campmap\startpos files (farm and trade) have to be multiplied with:
    *)governor's acumen factor: +10% for every acumen quill
    *)king's acumen factor: +2% for every acumen quill
    *)tax ratings: -25% for very low, -10% for low, +10% for high and +25% for very high taxes

    A little exemple: the farm income for Tunisia (specified as 300) with a 7 acumen governor and 4 acumen king and very high taxes, will be:

    300*0.52*1.7*1.08*1.25 = 358.02 or 358 florins a year

    3) Building influence:
    *) farm upgrades will increase the farm income with 20%, 40%, 60% and 80%, as already said in the first post (these values can be modded in the building production file if you want)
    *) Merchants: the first level will enable the goods to be sold, this gives a multiplier of 100%, the second level uses a multiplicator of 120%, the third one 140% and the fourth 160%.

    Another little exemple: wool (value of 30) in Leon, merchant guild, 6A governor, 4A king, very high taxes, sold to 26 provinces, this should give:

    30*0.52*1.6*1.08*1.25*1.4*26 = 1226 florins a year.

    The values for the merchant (100%, 120%, 140% and 160%) seem to be hardcoded. I once tried to mod in different multiplicators (100, 200, 300 and 400), but the old ones were still used. It is however possible to mod a 5th merchant level in the game (and maybe also a 6th, 7th,...) but the multipliers were a bit screwed up then (95% of the expected values). This means 95%, 114%, 133%, 152% and 171% instead of 100%, 120%, 140%, 160% and 180%.

    Whoever isn't bored to death after reading this post must be a mathematics or statistics freak

  12. #12
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    *)king's acumen factor: +2% for every acumen quill

    Where did you get that info, I was wondering about that number.
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    A while ago, I wondered which factors where taken into account when calculating the income. Because I don't have a strategy guide, I did some tests to see how the different factors influenced the income, and one of them seemed to be that every acumen point of the king increases income with 2% (calculated it manually).
    Btw, I started in the supposition that the taxes equated 30, 40, 50, 60 and 70%, as mentioned in the manual on page 20, but this proved to be wrong.

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    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    An excellent post -- except for one serious omission.

    Steward, Good steward and Great steward weren't mentioned anywhere in the thread.

    Steward' is one of the easiest virtues to get, and one of the most valuable. Not only does it raise farm income by 10 percent, but it raises loyalty by the same percentage.

    If your ruler gets the virtue, that's a 10-percent increase throughout the kingdom. More important, it doesn't go away when the king dies. If your next ruler gets the virtue, you get an additional 10 percent.

    Good steward raises farm income by 20 percent, I believe, while the comparatively rare Great Steward give a 30 percent increase.

    The results compound. Suppose you had a governor with the steward virtue over a province that has a base farm income of 300 florins. The income goes to 330 florins. Now suppose the king ruler the steward virtue. Now you're up to 363 florins. Your king dies, your new king continues with farm improvements in other provinces, and also gets the steward virtue. Now that province's farm income is up to 399 florins.

    If I'm wrong about the compounding benefits here, somebody correct me. However, I've seen steward virtues turn marginal farming provinces into productive areas worthy of development through more farming investments, further boosting income.

    The only way to get steward virtues is to invest heavily in farming.



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    Member Member Ulair's Avatar
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    Now this is a cut-out-and-keep thread if ever I've seen one. One for the archives?

    Great posts - thanks, guys

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    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    all very nice posts. oughtta be stickified.

    there was a post on farming virtues and in terms of trader and steward vices which are great for a king and can boost income significantly, just build and destroy mines and farms and do that repeatedly to get the vices.

    this is most profitable for a king that is young when he starts. Also, do this in your poorest provinces or destroying farms can cause a serious drop in income. BTW, it's the number that counts, not the quality so only destroy 20% and basic mines.

    when you do this, you can get a hefty +30% to both trade and farming

    more moola to fuel world conquest.

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    Member Member mbrasher1's Avatar
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    I did not count the upgrades for the castle, etc. Who doesn't make these upgrades? If you don't mind having only peasants to fight with, by all means don't upgrade the bldgs. I did not count it was I'd have upgraded anyways.

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    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Once this topic runs its course, I'll look at getting it added to the Table of Contents in the Main Hall.
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  19. #19

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    great info here, as trading is indeed essential...
    anybody have interesting tactics for foreign shipping that crosses through your trade routes??? when a war pops up it gets all complicated really fast. just wondering how everyone goes about dealing with the other ships, neutral or not
    pillage, plunder, burn...

  20. #20
    Senior Member Senior Member gaijinalways's Avatar
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    One thing to note; not considering the costs of building the castle upgrades to get the various upgraded merchant buildings is not an accurate way to calculate returns. For poor provinces, I am not going to waste time building much infrastructure unless there is another advantage besides increased revenue.

    It could be to defend a border (by making it more difficult to seige), or to build better troops or other agents, or even ships. But to say you would do it anyway (without stating why) seems to be an empty reason to justify not including the cost of these buildings againist any trade income you produce.

    Also of course, the opportunity costs need to be weighed as well, i.e. money that could have been spent on something else. And finally, one needs to look at the cost of defending the province because a ripe province needs more defending often than a poor one. So th cost of maintaining units left there to defend the trade house province needs to be calculated as well.

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    Senior Member Senior Member gaijinalways's Avatar
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    Sorry, I forgot to add, otherwise a great thread with some useful info to digest.
    Though as an after thought, I won my first campaigns with the English by doing almost no trading at all, so it is possible to avoid trading and still win.

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    Member Member Crash's Avatar
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    Yes, I too won my first campaign without using trade, because I didn't understand it at first. Some factions can't rely on trade to win anyway. Winning without trade requires a lot of aggression against other factions in order to build up your own agriculture at the expense of other factions. It is, however, definitely possible.

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    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    For Seven.the.Hun's question, I simply sink them all. I don't care about the faction being allied or neutral, I simply sink them.

    I usually have 5-8 provinces capable of building ships and that usually means that I can outproduce any AI faction in terms of a navy. Besides, first strike gives a nice little advantage in naval combat so I always attack first.

    I would sink them all and not risk any disruption to my trading. Only exception is early in the game if my trading is not set up yet and I can't afford a naval war.

    gaijinalways, it's funny that you are talking about opportunity costs. This might turn into a full blown economics course Anyone though about the rate of inflation and unemployment within MTW? possible tabulation of number of mercs for unemployment statistics?

    yeah, my first few games I didn't know to trade but I'm a huge trader now in every game. I guess I would only not trade to make the game harder.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Senior Member gaijinalways's Avatar
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    This game requires you need some understanding of economics (even if it is only on an intuitive level)to pay for troops and the buildings you need to expand.

    Also, the number of ships and their distance from the port they were built in is another cost(though a lower one, it's still there). I like to keep a strong navy too, but sometimes early on it's more difficult to support and keep them (especially if you don't start the war when you lose the trade with that faction).

  25. #25
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    I know economics is necessary and I'm actually amazed at the fairly good implementation here.

    I was being a bit sarcastic about the economics part but economics class could be more fun if we talked about opportunity costs and round about production in terms of Total War in say whether we should rush to ships as they provide better long term returns, etc.

    I also don't sink them until I'm fairly set up and consider the economic consequences.

    I like to have all the islands that I can get as naval bases and is acutely aware of sharp cost of ship upkeep and thus have at most two ships in each sea lane before deep water ships or less after that with deep sea ships ensuring trade lanes don't get cut because of a storm.

    This is different if I'm in a naval war though. I would frequently premptively start a naval war and wipe their entire fleet off the map within a year, launch amphibious raids to destroy their sea facilities the next, get my troops back if possible, pull out my ships for autocease fire and then go back.

    I can often reduce a glorious enemy navy to shambles and risk little trade loss.

    This also means that they don't get benefit of large trade networks and keeps them weak.

    If I feel like having a challenge, then I don't touch their navies and wait for them to backstab me.

    also, it's nice to work with agents and try to kill off their faction. they get big armies after reemergence but their oversized fleets are gone.

  26. #26
    Member Member dragonchr15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (katank @ Mar. 12 2004,16:18)]For Seven.the.Hun's question, I simply sink them all. I don't care about the faction being allied or neutral, I simply sink them.

    I usually have 5-8 provinces capable of building ships and that usually means that I can outproduce any AI faction in terms of a navy. Besides, first strike gives a nice little advantage in naval combat so I always attack first.

    I would sink them all and not risk any disruption to my trading. Only exception is early in the game if my trading is not set up yet and I can't afford a naval war.
    But if you start war with a faction that you are profitting very nicely from by sinking their ships, don't you lose a lot of money? I've had a game where I was getting 3000 Florins a turn from trade alone and the computer decided to start a war for no reason (both of us were making a lot of money) and I was suddenly getting
    -2000 every turn.

  27. #27

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    This is a great thread, is there anywhere on the web where such details on the MTW statistics are all together (website...)? These sort of things, such as the exact effect of king's acumen on province finances are very useful to fools like myself. It is a little difficult to have to run an experiment or search through lots of posts to get some of these numbers, and I'm relatively new to the MTW online community so don't know all the good haunts yet. Thanks.

  28. #28
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    @ dragonchr15, yes you do lose the income, but only for two turns.

    the first turn, you sink all their ships, the next, move out of all neighboring seas and then move back.

    thus, you will be neutral again and no navy for them to threaten you with.

    the key to this is to have a large treasury that you built up so you can weather the storm of a few years without trade and also to kill them all in one fell swoop to make the war and hence loss of income as short as possible.

  29. #29
    Urwendur Ūrībźl Senior Member Mouzafphaerre's Avatar
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    -
    BUMP

    Shouldn't this one go to the Guides board?
    _
    Ja mata Tosa Inu-sama, RIP Hore Tore & Adrian II

    Mouzafphaerre is known elsewhere as Urwendil/Urwendur/Kibilturg...
    .

  30. #30
    Tired Old Geek Member mfberg's Avatar
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    Ransom Cheat (I know you know how, but here it is.)

    1. Chase or otherwise maneuver enemy king into one of his last unconnected provinces (Northumbria/Wessex is good for the Eng, Arabia/Egypt for the Eggs, all that is important is that they don't touch each other, and you control most/all other access by potential spoilers).

    enemy King - You - enemy province

    Just keep moving back and forth between the three countries capturing his king every other turn and abadoning that province for the loyalist rebels. Make sure loyalist rebels are there and win if there is also a peasant or religious (gray) rebellion.

    I haven't tried this for long (3 captures and I got tired of it), but its a cheat. I hope the enemy king would get captured VV quickly and fight to the death.

    mfberg
    It is not complete until the overwieght female vocalizes.

    Pinky : Gee Brain, what do you want to do tonight?
    Brain : The same thing we do every night Pinky. Try to take over the world!

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