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Thread: MTW economics 101 condensed edition

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    Member Member ah_dut's Avatar
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    MTW economics 101 Summary:

    Your economy in MTW and STW for that matter hinges on the 4 pillars of the economy. These are mines, agriculture, trade and if you’ve got them, good governors.
    First off mines:
    A salt mine gives you 26 florins a year and costs 250 florins.
    A salt mine complex costs the same but only yields an additional 5%
    The same goes for other mines. They give you 37 florins for silver and 52 for gold respectively.
    Tactics: you should build the first level mines everywhere before the second level is even started. Obviously gold is a better investment than salt. So build the right mines first.
    Courtesy of RedKnight, here is a more accurate figure for mine income:
    There are four types of mines, each of which makes a multiple of the lowest level one (Salt's 26):

    Salt - 26
    Copper - 52
    Silver - 78
    Gold - 104

    All the mine complexes double the income of the regular mine, but cost less than twice as much. Thus, the first-level mines pay for themself in 10-14 years, and the second levels pay for themself in 16-18 years. I generally consider anything less than 20 years to be pretty good (whether farms, mines, or trade). But because salt and copper produce so little income in real terms, I often delay them, especially in provinces that have something else important going on, like developing trade and farms in Sweden before its copper.

    Might I also point out a simple mnemonic for figuring amortization (pay-off) time here, and a modelled listing of every province's income from all sources, here (an Excel spreadsheet).

    Agriculture: this type of income differs greatly between provinces. Constantinople produces over 1000 florins a year with upgrades. Sinai doesn’t get you 100 florins a year with all upgrades IIRC

    Ex. Take a province with 300 florins from agriculture
    20% upgrade (costs 600) = 60 extra florins
    40% upgrade (costs 1000) = +60 more
    60% upgrade (costs 1500) = +60 more
    80% upgrade (costs 2500) = +60 more
    Table from Mbrasher1
    So the yields are:
    20% upgrade = 10 percent
    40% upgrade = 6 percent
    60% upgrade = 4 percent
    80% upgrade = 2.2 percent

    You can figure out how many years your investment will pay off by dividing 100% by the yield. An investment that yields 2% will take 50 years to pay off.
    Table from Mbrasher1

    Trade: now we’re getting fat and greedy. This can both bankrupt you and make you a millionaire literally.
    Big question how does this fantastic system work? To make the megabucks you need, a port, a merchant and a fleet. You also can’t be at war with your trading partners obviously.
    If your ships link your merchant and port to their port, you have some money. With the no. of ports in places like the Nile cost etc, and the no. of provinces wit trade goods you see how great a source of income this is.

    With 5 ships and 3 ports built in Antioch, Tripoli and Egypt, and 2 captured in Greece and Constantinople, I built a small trade network for:
    2250 florins (3 ports)
    3000 florins (5 ships)
    2400 florins (3 trading posts – 2 others were captured)
    1200 florins (2 docks)

    And just like that my trade network is producing 1150 florins yearly. If I invest 8850 and get 1150, that is an annual yield of about 13%, even in its initial stages, far superior than most other economic investments.

    Then after 5 more years, I have built 3 more ships. My total investment is now 10,650 but the increased network is now giving me an additional 2300, or a total annual yield of over 20%. (A little more complicated: look at the extra investment and the extra return. I added 1800 florins to my investment and increased my return by 1150 per year compared to the earlier first trade period. This is called the marginal return, and it exceeds 60 percent.)

    By the time I reach Portugal, I now have 23,450 florins invested in my trade network, which totals 19 ships (and new ports/trading posts in conquered Crimea, Khazar, Nicea and Bulgaria). My profits from trade are now 12,300 annually. This is a 50% return on my initial investment. It pays me back every other year. And then again. And agan.

    Then after building enough ships to reach the Baltic, I have spent 30,650 on my trade network. It gives me 26,500 in florins per year. This return is almost 90 percent. Though it took me 20 years to build, my entire network nearly pays for its cost every year.
    Below are the prices obtainable for trade products courtesy of therother.
    Thanks to Mbrasher1 for stats here.
    glassware 40, wood 20, furs 40, wine 40, wool 30, silk 40, cotton 30, linen 30, wax 20, honey 40, salt 20, hides 30, butter 20, pottery 30, fish 20, spices 50, gems 50, sugar 40, dyes 50, ivory 40, olive oil 30, grain 30. This tells you why Antioch, with its gems, spices and silks, is so profitable
    You may well need naval predominance to complete this however.
    Edit: from Mfberg: you can trade with neutral rebels

    Governors: each acumen plume a Governors has adds 10% to a provinces income. So a 9-acumen governor does wonders for a rich province.
    Certain virtues can also increase production, namely the easily acquired steward and the harder to get but in the trading days more useful, trader.
    To acquire either virtue is simple. To get steward, your general king or whatever must be present in the province when an agricultural upgrade is being built and finished. To acquire, the trader virtue, the man must be present during the building of a mine and it’s finish. Each virtue gives +10% production for each type respectively, so according to Katank, you should build and then destroy basic mines and agriculture upgrades to farm the virtue, I agree.
    Also of note may be the fact that every one of your king’s acumen plumes gives your provs an extra 2% to monetary production.
    Big NB though, once a king gets his steward virtue, the effect is permanent, at least according to Doug-Thompson.

    Probably Just as important as many of the above is your support costs. Some units cost a lot in support. Good units include VI peasants celtic warriors, Gallowglasses and Bonnachts, below is list compiled of good garrison units by Davey baby.
    men / unit = cost
    100 Peasants/Muslim Peasants = 37
    100 Viking Thralls = 37
    100 Bonnachts = 22 (Very Cheap)
    100 Nubian Spearmen = 37
    100 Celtic Warriors = 25 (Very Cheap)
    60 Golden Horde Warriors = 22
    60 Irish Dartmen = 22
    60 Crossbows / Pav Crossbows = 22
    60 Arbalesters / Pav Arbs = 22
    60 Arquebusiers = 22
    60 Woodsmen = 22
    60 Gallowglasses = 22
    60 Highland clansmen = 22
    60 Kerns = 22
    60 Slav Javelin Men = 22
    100 VI peasants =12




  2. #2
    Amir of the office desk Member Cebei's Avatar
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    I want to ask something I'm not very clear about. Does garrisonning a place with all-peasants, increase the likelihood of a rebellion? In other words, is loyalty related to the power of the garrison, as it is related to the size of the garrisson? Or stuffing a castle with peasants is equal to stuffing the castle with -say- more expensive chivalric men-at-arms in terms of the percentage of loyalty?
    When the game ends, peon and king go into the same box.

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    Member Member ah_dut's Avatar
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    Nope for loyalty, your peasants are as scary as royal knights and lancers all the same.

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    Amir of the office desk Member Cebei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (ah_dut @ May 28 2004,13:54)]Nope for loyalty, your peasants are as scary as royal knights and lancers all the same.
    Thanks That will save some florins for my governors to favor their family above all.
    When the game ends, peon and king go into the same box.

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    Senior Member Senior Member RedKnight's Avatar
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    Thanks for that summarization, Ah_dut I was too busy playing to take the time

    A slight clarification of the mines info, if I could:

    There are four types of mines, each of which makes a multiple of the lowest level one (Salt's 26):

    Salt - 26
    Copper - 52
    Silver - 78
    Gold - 104

    All the mine complexes double the income of the regular mine, but cost less than twice as much. Thus, the first-level mines pay for themself in 10-14 years, and the second levels pay for themself in 16-18 years. I generally consider anything less than 20 years to be pretty good (whether farms, mines, or trade). But because salt and copper produce so little income in real terms, I often delay them, especially in provinces that have something else important going on, like developing trade and farms in Sweden before its copper.

    Might I also point out a simple mnemonic for figuring amortization (pay-off) time here, and a modelled listing of every province's income from all sources, here (an Excel spreadsheet).




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    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Thanks ah_dut. I'll incorporate RedKnight's corrections when I have the time and then I'll move it to the Guides forum.
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    Member Member ah_dut's Avatar
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    All edited in Gregoshi no need to worry about it any more. Also Red|Knight, is it okay if I use your better mine income projections?

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    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Moving to the Guides forum. Thanks again ah_dut for putting it all together.
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    Member Member ah_dut's Avatar
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    Pleased to do a service to the org as always greg anything i can do just ask

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    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    good job, ah_dut

    I was just wondering if we should also condense some of the faction guides in similar manner.

    we can offer say aggressive strat (my blitz types), defensive/turtle strats, and in between ones for each faciton and each era.

    this would be quite time consuming but would make the faciton guides into even better resources IMHO.

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    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    BTW, any votes for getting this stickified?

    this is a great resource.

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (katank @ May 31 2004,15:46)]I was just wondering if we should also condense some of the faction guides in similar manner.
    I think that was Cheetah's original plan, that's why there are three posts reserved at the start of each topic saying nothing more than 'early', 'high, and 'late'.

    Cheetah seems to have been very busy recently, he is the primary mod for this forum. I'll send him a PM and see what's happening, then report back here.

    In the event of him being too busy to do much here I can edit Cheetah's posts, but I don't have time to condense anything. Are there any volunteers to condense things down for me to copy over? It must be kept to the scheme that has been laid out, with tactics falling into their specific eras.

    Can we shift this discussion over to the comments and suggestions thread please? It will keep this thread focused, it seems a shame to spoil hard work with off-topic business talk.



    Thanks for your hard work, ah_dut, in case you didn't see my comment in the other thread.



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    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Just one thing I think should be added:

    The link to the original discussion, for the record but also because it contains a lot of unconnected facts that might be interesting.

    Good job, ah_dut
    Looking for a good read? Visit the Library!

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    Member Member ah_dut's Avatar
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    Thank you all, for praise,
    @katank what does 'stickified' mean i'm confused

  15. #15
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    stickified means that it gets a place at the very top of the forum and is pinned there so later posts will not move it down.

    this is the case for remarkably good posts like lady froggy's guides.

  16. #16
    Member Member ah_dut's Avatar
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    Why thank you katank, I wouldn't put this post anywhere near the quality of Froggy's guides though

  17. #17
    Tired Old Geek Member mfberg's Avatar
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    A note on trade
    You can trade with rebels as long as you are not at war with any rebel faction. This means you must not be next to any rebels and must move out of sea lanes next to any rebels for a year to get back to neutral with them.

    mfberg
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  18. #18
    Member Member ah_dut's Avatar
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    I'll edit that in

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    Member Member Zortanius's Avatar
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    Just a clarification, I know I canot trade with factiosn I am at war with but can i trade with myself - If I hold Egypt and say Antioch - can each province trade with each other (the goods each one does not have)? IIRC I read somewhere that you cannot trade woth yourself - which sucks as the more you expand - the more provinces you cannot trade with

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  20. #20
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Zortianus, you can not trade with yourself. It is annoying and counterintuitive (why would they stop needing wool just because I've conquered them), but it is so all the same.
    Looking for a good read? Visit the Library!

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    Member Member Zortanius's Avatar
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    Cool

    Thankyou Ludens,

    Indeed it is very counterintuitive - plus in reality different merchants in different provinces did trade with each other. Also if one could trade with each other there would be more incentive to invade and perhaps losing more troops in the bargain would not be that big a deal. Alas.

    However without getting too ahead of myself here, my suggestion is that the trade between 2 points should be also dependent on the number of ships in the sea route. So if you had atleast 2 ships in every sea region between say Egypt and Venice your trade whould be more than if you had just one. Also this way you spread your ships out more and don't just have a large armada sitting out in the Straits of Gibraltar or the Aegean Sea. Since ships cost atleast 700 florins on average I don't think it's too much to ask for.

    Onward Sea Traders

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  22. #22
    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Perhaps you should include an How to get out of 10k + debt...

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  23. #23
    Member Member ah_dut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Steppe Merc @ June 21 2004,21:36)]Perhaps you should include an How to get out of 10k + debt...
    What do you need Merc?

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    Member Member mcv's Avatar
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    Just don't get in 10k+ debt. I don't think I've ever been in debt (although I often cannot complete my build orders).
    Just make sure you're not wasting too much money on the maintainance of useless troops. Keep your forces small, efficient and high quality. Dump peasants the minute you don't need them anymore, which is as soon as the threat of rebellion is gone.


    mcv.

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    Member Member ah_dut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (mcv @ June 27 2004,20:11)]Just don't get in 10k+ debt. I don't think I've ever been in debt (although I often cannot complete my build orders).
    Just make sure you're not wasting too much money on the maintainance of useless troops. Keep your forces small, efficient and high quality. Dump peasants the minute you don't need them anymore, which is as soon as the threat of rebellion is gone.


    mcv.
    what, have you ever played as the danes, i was in the red for a decade

  26. #26
    Member Member mcv's Avatar
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    How do you get in debt as the Danes? They start with a good port and good shipbuilding ability, and few provinces to waste money on. If there's one faction that should do well financially, it's the Danes.

    Now if you had trouble with the HRE, that I can understand. Turkish finances are hard too, as is anyone else's that starts without sea access.


    mcv.

  27. #27
    Member Member ah_dut's Avatar
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    trade aint cheap to set up

  28. #28
    Member Member mcv's Avatar
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    But you earn your expenses back real fast. Especially as Denmark. And even at Expert you have enough starting money to build a couple of ships.


    mcv.

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    For TosaInu and the Org Senior Member The_Emperor's Avatar
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    The key to getting enough Money as the Danes to tech up is ransom, confiscated lands and plunder...

    The raiding of nearby provinces and the slaying of rebels can make for a good cash earner.
    "Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it."

  30. #30
    Member Member ah_dut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ July 06 2004,06:53)]The key to getting enough Money as the Danes to tech up is ransom, confiscated lands and plunder...

    The raiding of nearby provinces and the slaying of rebels can make for a good cash earner.
    yeah what he said

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