naval total war

[Hross af Guttenburg]

i'm not a skilled or knowledgable modder, so i write this at the risk of being laughed out of the forum. anyway, heres my idea for a new mod concept, dunno if its possible or it would work or even if it would be interesting to others....

what about purely ships as units? 1800s napoleonic era ships and fighting only on water maps (BUT OBVIOUSLY with SOME land to act as interesting tactical challenges, some with artillery or defensive buildings on maybe? -this could represent the coastline or a small island to fight over.)


galleons and warships would use cannon as well as boarding assaults (like infantry do in hand to hand combat) upgrades would work as armour: the strength/integrity of the ship, weapon: class of the weapons/boarding party onboard, morale: level of crew)

This would obviously be best suited to custom and multiplayer first but a campaign form wouldn't be impossible either. countries are replaced by sea areas and ports. factions would have specialist ships or crews, british marine soldiers on british vessels, lighter smaller faster ships could balance out between large slow but powerful ships with long range.

the big issues are clearly unit graphics, the vessels would also need to be inkeeping with the scale of total war units which would mean that galleons be pretty large. other issues: speed of units, and getting units to work on water instead of land....is it possible to overwrite?
it would be SO boring to have JUST flat water maps without any land to make for tactical problems etc. so land NEEDS to be a feature, and as said, buildings would also be cool. a few custom maps could be made to start with to get the interest in the mod going.
but i think its a real fun idea with a lot of strong development possibilities. i just hope its possible at least in theory to do.

some inspiring pics:
http://www.neptunepictures.com/trafalgar.htm

[Duke Malcolm]

I thought of this a while ago, too. You could make the sea regions count as land, and vice-versa. castles replaced with ports, as well.

[Duke Malcolm]

Although boarding attacks might be hard.

[Hross af Guttenburg]

dont think so i mean it should work on the same principle as a unit in NTW
several guns of different calibres stand for different ships.
different abilities in boarding assaults perhaps depend on crew, for intance pirates, marines etc all have different boarding abilties. shiåps would have diffrent speeds too. problems are really how to get units to work on sea whilst having battle maps that also include land without the ships moving over land too. etc
realistically, its also bad that we can never have storms or bad sea weather nor can we make winds effect the speed or movement of the ships as they would have in the age of sail.
but boarding would still work on the skirmish/hold/engage at will principles...

malcolm im interested...how far have/did you come in your ideas?

[Hross af Guttenburg]

possible factions:

english
french
spanish
portuguese
dutch
italians
danes
pirates/rebels


ps -i think campaign maps would be a lot harder and more time consuming than a simple multiplayer/Single player based game. if we could pull that off then a long running mod to make an awesome campaign mod would be brilliant

[barocca]

the only problems that i can see

loading units onto ships,
at this stage the game engine does not allow one unit to be carried by another,
stand off and shoot would work,
having troops on board the ships would not,

shooting on the move
the game engine requires your units to stop to shoot,
that would like unrealistic unless ship movemnt was very slow,

[Kaatar]

It'll be possible with Rome. If I were you I'd start planning now and be ready for Rome.

[Duke Malcolm]

my ideas just remained an idea, sadly.
If you make the ship graphics with a close-combat attack, you could have it look like the men are running around, attacking the enemy ship.

[Hross af Guttenburg]

precisely. i still think it is feasible in MTW, even when RTW comes we could make improvements. i understand your idea Malcolm, guys.....- its what i meant when i said 'ships like units' -i didnt mean carrying units on ships but that a ship has a certain crew or unit onboard, the ships will have to fire cannon in stationary positions which would make for some strategy as they will not be able to take many hits. however boarding will work because all that needs to be done is to have the 'crews' fight, whereas in reality -in game terms- its the ships themselves that are attacking each other in close combat. and like i said different ships with different upgrades of crew would be better or worse at boarding etc, in this way the ships would work like a NTW unit (in game terms not in graphics)

so still the major problem is getting ship graphics to move on water and not on land in the game....is it possible and how do we mod it?

[Duke Malcolm]

You could make a texture that looks like water (I think there was a tool for that, but I may have been imagining things again...). It would have to be flat (no waves), and coast would be a bit hard...

[Duke Malcolm]

I decided to quickly make a map to show you what I mean. That backdrop will have to be changed, though.

Download this image (tga)

...you have to right-click, and 'Save Target As'.

[Kaatar]

My God That looks great. Definitely be possible alright. It'd make some very nice custom games but would a campaign be possible?

Edit:
JPEG for those who can't open TGA:
http://www.imagedump.com/index.c....arned=y

[Duke Malcolm]

You could have varying levels of ports (small port, fishing port, port city, port citadel, etc.). You shouldn't build in Deep Sea regions, as well.

[Duke Malcolm]

So... shall we try to make it a mod?

[Hross af Guttenburg]

well thats that problem sorted...hehehe. seems easy now lol

but coast and coastal defences are GOING to have to be a part of the maps whether we make a campaign or mulitplayer mod. otherwise all we'll have is flat maps with no tactics and no strategies, it would be pointless.

[Hross af Guttenburg]

heres some info ...cannon ranges...class of frigates and size of crews and guns.....
http://www.napoleonguide.com/navy_rnratings.htm

anymore links?
lets get a list going so we can pool our knowledge and ideas....

[Kaatar]

Why not just make the coastal and land textures have the same attributes as the normal water one? That way the ships won't be able to go onto them but they'll still look like coasts and land.

Edit: Just tried to make a map. It's messy alright :( I'm not a map maker and assumed that each texture had it's own little file with it saying whether it is land or water but it's preprogrammed. The only thing to do is have completely flat maps. There could still be a coast but only one texture can be used, 000. This is the default and is water. It is the only water tile. This is the only impassable tile. If I overwote this with another texture file (say a coast), this would be the default. Basically, all maps must be flat (or you could have huge hills of water but that's crazy talk).

I think you should wait for Rome. The loading onto ships thing was mentioned somewhere in an interview, I'm sure of it. Once Rome comes out it should be possible. Until then, custom battles between ships only and on an entirely flat map.

[Hross af Guttenburg]

I can find about ten types of vessels for suggested use in this mod...

Ships of the line: classes 1-3
Frigates: classes 4-6
Corvettes: frigate-class sloop. Light, fast, with decent cannons and a small boarding party. 'Sloop of war.'
Sloops: a single-masted ship, neither large nor powerful, nor does it carry a sizeable boarding party.
Brigs: a small fast sail ship customised for war, often used in piracy.
Schooner/Cutter: ten times lighter than a first class man o'war. Very small, fast vessel.
Launch: Assault vessel used by marines and boarding parties.


Warships/Man o'wars/ Ships of the Line

It is here that I elect to make the observation about the difference between the 18th century war ships of France and of England. It came down to a known trade-off. It was necessary to achieve a balance between two desirable but incompatible features of a sailing vessel outfitted for war. A sacrifice was to be made in one area to obtain benefits in another: the trade-off was fighting ability versus sailing ability. The general criticism of English men of war was that they were "bad sailers" and could be better if they were "built snugger and lighter." This criticism and reply is seen set forth in a report to the Navy Board, 15th of May, 1747: "40-gun ships may undoubtedly be built slighter and much snugger than our present ships, whose extra strength and height in creases their weight aloft, and may thereby obstruct their sailing, but their guns being on two decks gives good room for both men and guns to be much better disposed on in action, than were they placed on one deck and a quarterdeck as proposed. The French ships are certainly much weaker ships than ours."

Ship Rating Guns Crew Marines Decks Tons

First 100-112 900 100-112 3 2500
Second 90-98 750 90-98 3 2200
Third 64-84 650 64-84 2 1750
Fourth 50-54 420 50-54 2 1100
Fifth 44 300 44 2 900
Sixth 20-30 200 20-30
Sloops 24-30 125 24-30

Frigates
These are the common and lighter warships with guns of different ranges and sizes, they are huge, imposing and capable of good speed. They always carry a crew of marines too which means they have daunting abilities when boarding.
Frigates come in several classes, which designate their size, speed, cannon weights and range as well as the size of their boarding crews.
A frigate is a war vessel of the 18th century. Though the frigate, because it was light and swift, was used primarily for reconnoitering and to relieve warships in distress, it was, nonetheless, a substantial war-vessel, next in size and equipment to ships of the line, "carrying from 28 to 60 guns on the main deck and a raised quarter-deck and forecastle."

Type Rate Guns Gun decks Men Displacement in tonnes
Ship-of-the-Line 1st Rate
100 or more 3 + forecastle
and quarterdeck 850 to 875 >2000
2nd Rate
90 to 98 3 + forecastle
and quarterdeck 700 to 750 about 2000
3rd Rate
64 to 80 2 500 to 650 1300-1600
Frigate 4th Rate
50 to 60 2 320 to 420 about 1000
5th Rate
32 to 40 1 200 to 300 700 to 1450
6th Rate
20 to 28 1 140 to 200 450 to 550
Sloops
16 to 18 1 90 to 125 380
Gun-Brigs and Cutters
6 to 14 1 5 to 25

[alman9898]

It is possible as the stated but only by using tricks to make it appear to be a naval battle

[Hross af Guttenburg]

ok, great. lets do it then. see how far we get. if it is poor then at least its testing for a mod of ROME. IN which case this would be huge

even with a standard single flat map for multiplayer games- games between different factions and ship classes would be great fun and some tactical challenges can be put into the variations between ships and factions. Thinking thought that there will be no cavalry/infantry/artillery in reality just three different ship types. Theres a lot of room to work with.

BUT, what i still dont understand is that if a texture can be made for water why is it not possible to have raised land masses in green? it seems quite simple to me in theory, so whats the problem in practice? in reality we dont need to have impassable land masses, just a player rule that we never take the ships over the hills/land masses. lol. it would work, based on player discretion- just like NTW often does with its generals etc. What dya think?

[Duke Malcolm]

Anyone good at making new unit graphics?

[Hross af Guttenburg]

Yeah they will be really challenging...might be an idea to draw up a proposal for the mod and present the idea to a few experienced modders. We can kinda headhunt or something... But we have to give them something to work on first, and be in agrrement what it is we want

[Duke Malcolm]

Quote[/b] ] Thinking thought that there will be no cavalry/infantry/artillery in reality just three different ship types.

You need more than just Ships of the line, and frigates.

You need 1st/2nd rate as a type (3 decks), 3rd-5th as a type (2 Decks), and 6th on its own (1 Deck). Perhaps Britain could have a special 1st rate one, to look like HMS Victory.

You need a Corvette/Sloop one, they seem similar.

You need a Brigantine/Schooner one.

You need a Launch one.

...I think. Unless that isn't what you meant by three types of ships. If not, then just ignore me...

[Duke Malcolm]

Quote[/b] ]Yeah they will be really challenging...might be an idea to draw up a proposal for the mod and present the idea to a few experienced modders. We can kinda headhunt or something... But we have to give them something to work on first, and be in agrrement what it is we want

We could ask Duke John for units?

[Kaatar]

DJ's a busy man. I don't know if he'd have the time. There's a tutorial around here somewhere. It'd be worth a go.

[Duke John]

Topic moved to the Engineers Guild
It seems that we have a couple of stubborn buccaneers

Here's a good site that also has some nice renderings: click here

And if you want a test BIF for the Ships, then there is a BIF called dutchship.BIF in campaign\ships. It's a leftover from STW, but you can extract the images and use these to make a unitBIF.

Good luck,
Duke John

[Hross af Guttenburg]

Sounds good. we could all try and DIY it. im no modder, but i could it give a go. as long we work cooperatively we should be able to get somewhere.
I think the classes would work well like that actually. how many did you think 6/7 classes?
as u say maybe we can develop a few specials later on, like a marine carrier, a pirate ship, faction specific stuff.
but how would we divide theese up?

infantry replaced by frigates/line ships

cavalry replaced by launches

artillery replaced by light vessels

??? guess its irrelevant right now,...first things first...



---i'm assuming the aim is to do an ONLINE mod then?

[Duke Malcolm]

launches are small, so shouldn't they be infanty, with frigates as cavalry?

And what do you mean online?

[Hross af Guttenburg]

i mean a multiplayer game mod only, like RECONQUISTA is, it ONLY works as an online or custom battle mod. it cannot be played as a campaign mod, because it is to basic or ONLY based on unit warfare. Since we can ONLY produce ocean or flat sea terrain maps it seems impossible to try and mod a campaign mod. We will have to concentrate on a multiplayer mod first, and see how far we get. Do you think that is a good idea?

about the three unit types....i was thinking along the lines that frigates/warships are the backbone of a fleet. but having said that, frigates were probably the few and the elite, whereas boarding vessels were the most common in a sea battle, frigates had several launches and gave covering fire to the boarding parties...so your idea is probably best and most realistic. I agree that ships of the line (or maybe these should be artillery?) and frigates should be 'cavalry' units. Launches with varying crews and boat sizes, can be infantry as you say.

by the by heres some more images:
a brig--

a fifth/sixth class frigate--

same again....different angle--

a sloop -

a corvette-

A first class warship/ship of the line

and again

[barocca]

here's an idea,

many knick knack shops have various model ships,
not always high quality, but a starting point,
also you could visit some larger model shops, they often have ships on display,
alternatively grandparents may have some model ships,

now you get a digital camera (or a camera phone) and take photo's, you dont neccesarily need huge quality,
these models will be fairly compact to fit into the bif file.

Museums also may have model ships, some may not allow you to take photo's - best to ask first.

the point is you dont want to go to all the hassle of making the models yourself, you want to take photo's of some already built.
and it will be whole lot easier than cruising the net trying to find photo's from the angles you require.

Bif files typically require 4 angles,
i think the info is in the making new units thread around here somewhere.

NOW,
because you have so many inspired buccaneers, i am sure you could all do something towards gathering the required photo's
:-)

B.