Hopeless battle?

[Rufus]

Hi - This battle I played and lost three times last night is bugging me at work today, and I wanted to get anyone's advice on it before I go home tonight and try again. this is all off of memory so forgive my vagueness.

Anatolia (mountains), I'm Germans defending on a hill vs. Byzantines, in Easy (part of the reason this is bugging me - I hate losing any battles in Easy, although this is only my second campaign in MTW). They have about 2700 men - including two units of Byz Inf. They also have one unit of Pronoiai Allagion and one or two Byzantine Lancer units. Rest are about four sets of archers (one Trebizonds), some spears, some Slav warriors. Most of their units have 1-2 valor; the Byz Inf have 3.

I have about 2100 men. I've tried starting with different combinations of starting troops. I have about four units of mounted sergeants, some horse archers, two FMAA units, and lots of regular archers. Also some Slav warriors and lots of feudal sergeants.

The Byz have tended to come at me this way: Proniai try to flank to my left, then Trebizond archers with Byz Inf sort of to the right, Byz Lances over to the right side with more archers. Also a few units of spears and Slavs pretty much interspersed.

I've tried archers in front, spear wall in front, cavalry flank, etc. My next plan is to put spears (feudal sergeants) on the sides to attack the Pronoiai and Byz Lancers, put my horses in the front to attack the Byz Inf, with archers in a line behind to hit the spears and miscellaneous units. I know usually you flank with cavalry but that hasn't seemed to work.

This battle shouldn't be hopeless on Easy, but with a 600 man disadvantage, valor disadvantage and unit disadvantage (I just read the writeups on Byz Inf and Pronoiai - yikes), maybe it is? should I just let it go??

Thanks

[Cebei]

If you can write the ranks of the generals, I can suggest several things.

[Rufus]

Both are three-stars. My general is in a mounted sergeant unit - not sure what unit the Byz guy is in.

Another thing I have to check is whether my general has a bad morale vice. Not sure ...

Thanks for any tips; I don't have any aspirations to be a great tactician in this game because there are just too many things to try to remember in the chaos of battle. I know the basics, though, so I think I should be able to win this one, especially on Easy

[makkyo]

OK... it seems that you have a good balance of troops n your army, and the only thing that seems to stop you is the Byz. inf, as they are the Byzantine's grwatest weapon in my opinion. Have your arny assembled on any sort of geographical feature (such as a hill) near the back of the map so you will have a height advantage as well as the ability to make the enemy march all the way to your position. Have spearmen deployed on your flanks, with cavalry right behind them. Your middle should consist of heavy infantry, any elite units, and you can disperse your Slav warriors acordingly.
Try using your archers like crazy so the fire on the Byz. infantry all at once. Try to take them out first. Use your sergents to attack the enemy's center while using your mounted sergents to flank the enemy. Your slav warriors are there to bulk up the size of your army and give suport to your sergents.
After attacking ONE flank with ALL of your cavalry, you now should have an entire half of your army with no enemies to fight. So what do you do? Use the rst of your army to suport its other half and you should win this one.

[ah_dut]

iirc Byz inf have crap morale, even at valour 3 they have equal morale to your gen, so give em some arrows, flank em, rear attanks and all the rest of it. Then watch them run
Sadly this is a bit idealistic, Byz inf are good, do watch it. By the way do you know how to use HA properly they are lethal. good luck

[Rufus]

Quote[/b] ]do you know how to use HA properly they are lethal

Probably not - I remember reading in the guide that it's hard to master using them. Like I said, this is only my second campaign. practice, practice, practice

thanks for the tips, all

[katank]

use the HAs and run their poor infantry @sses all around the map.

the pronoai can be lured into your spears and slaughtered.

just find a nice hill to park on and distract them with your HAs while your archers shoot them all up.

with a large height advantage, your archers can easily outduel the enemy archers and kill heavy inf like Byz inf.

those huge lumbering units marching up a steep hill makes for ideal target practice.

let the spears hold them while still peppering with archers form behidn the spear wall.

charge your swords from the flanks into the enemy below such as archers, causing them to run away.

then, once your swords are beyond the melee line, turn back and double back into the rear of the Byz inf.

for cav and swords, I like to stretch them into 1 or 1.5 ranks and then maneuver and charge them in wedge formation.

after the wedge hits, then switching to close is just about enough to rout any enemy unit if done form the rear.

[Bhruic]

To expand on what Katank said, it's very easy to 'distract' an infantry unit with HAs. I've had great success with this. You don't even have to micro them. Have the HA flank their army, and close on the BI position, and open fire. Most likely, the BI will attempt to give chase. As long as no cav chases your HA, just leave them on skirmish and forget about them. They aren't likely to do a lot of damage that way (I usually get about 30 kills), but the BI will be effectively out of the battle, for only the price of a couple HAs. This gives you plenty of time to take out the rest of the Byzantine army, and should leave you enough troops to deal with the BI once your HA run out of arrows.

Bh

[katank]

also note that if you order a charge at an enemy unit's flank or rear and it's not pinned, it will attempt to face the attakcing unit.

even if the unit is across the map, feigned charges still work.

HAs in squads can easily have inf spinning in circles to try to avoid charges in the rear and all the while getting shot to pieces.

[econ21]

I often have trouble when the AI fields swords and heavy cavalry against me. One thing I've learned is the value of a Pyrrhic victory (for the AI). Concentrate on killing the heavy cav - eg with archers and spears. Even if you lose the battle, chances are they won't be replaced for the next. By contrast, the Feudals etc that you lose are likely ransomed back to you and anyway are very common.

A tactic from the Ulysses S. Grant school of warfare.

Well, this IS total war, isn't it?

Even lower tactic - some battles may be unwinnable on manual (eg if your general's command is lousy so your whole army routs quickly), but you can kill more of the AI on autoresolve

Both these cheap tactics were learnt in a PBM when as Almos I had to confront a very powerful Byzantine Empire.

[katank]

just to add to Simon, try using naptha and/or siege if you have any.

just have masses of spears in hold formation.

send some naptha to blow everything away.

sure your spears would practically insta rout but remember that you are killing expensive, hard to replace units for cheapo ones you can get out of any old province

lots of javs and siege also good for killing armored expensive toys.

archers just for pure attrition.

just have trash flood pin them and then wear em down.

works wonders for me.

[ichi]

Katank knows the Byz, and that menas he knows how to kill them and well as use them. His suggestions are sound.

What are the command ratings of the Gens? What is the valor of your units and the enemy? Any V&Vs? Some players never realize how important these are - sometimes the Valor and V&Vs can be more important than the number of troops.

Since you have more than 16 units, try to get the HAs in the initial wave. You can easily do this in VI, but it kinda sounds like you got MTW. You can swap units prebattle - highlight a unit on the field and click on the reinforcements button up top. Start the HA as far forward as possible and focus 2-3 HA on one unit - preferably a high quality unit.

Where is your rally flag located? Is the position where you are trying to hold near your reinforcement arrival location? Move that rally flag to a point just behind your spot. Use those HA up fast and get them off the field in time to get your reinforcements in position. Same with archers. As soon as possible get em out of there and replaced.

Protect your Gen. Kill his Gen.

Finally, the cheesy Byz Inf isolation trick. Set up your inf like this if you can

Inf Inf* Inf1 Inf* Inf
Inf2 Inf3

the idea is to have 2 good inf behind the front line. When a Byz Inf goes to attack Inf1, retreat Inf1, the Byz Inf should follow, and then hit it on both sides with Inf2 and Inf3 (also with Inf1 if you can).

Inf Inf* Inf* Inf
Inf2 ByzInf Inf3
Inf1
Surrounded, outnumbered, and isolated, the Byz Inf will rout. Don't chase, immediately turn on another nearby Byz Inf and you can get a chain rout going. Use any higher valor units that you have in the Inf* position.

Good luck and let us know how it turned out.

ichi

[gaijinalways]

I'm wondering what year this is, or how teched up you are a you don'T have any xbows or albs present. These do a number on BYZ infantry in combinations and they also fight better then vanilla archers in a pinch.

The flanking maneuvers mentioned and the use of focus of fire by missile troops and your attacking footmen should carry the day as you both only have 1600 men maximum on the field at a time, so the AI can't use his full 600 extra men to advantage. Those extra men only help when the AI is bringing up reinforcements, but if you can rout him and/or kill his general before then, then the extra units don't matter.

Taking advantage of the map is key, use a hill and the edge of the map if possible to control the AI's rush and slow him down as you pelt his forward unts with arrow fire. Often, you may get the depleted unit to rout or to be under prepared for your own infantry coming downhill into them form 3 sides.

The HAs are great for harassment maneuvers and xbow cav if you have them, will also put a dent in the BYZ infantry as well. The main thing the HAs do is tire out units chasing them, whether they are cav or foot units. Of course, foot units are easier to stay away from.

[pdoan8]

I agree with Makkyo about the Byz Inf. At V3, don't expect them to run easily (especially, one of them may be the general). Also, you don't have any proper counter troops against them. Base stat, Byz Inf only slightly weaker than FMAA (1 att 2 morale lesser). However, with 40 men advatage, they often over come their weakness if engage 1 on 1 with FMAA. With 5 amour, your regular archers will have difficult time to kill them. Best bet is to hold them with your FS until something open up.

Don't worry about the 600 men disadvantage. Large battle like this, it is more important that you field your best 16 units at the beginning. I will choose:

- 5 spears. Bring as many FS as I can. Leave the Slav for reinforcement. They are fast but lack defensive power.
- 5 archers
- 2 FMAA
- The rest should be Cav.

What I will try is:
- Use your best defensive troops to hold the enemy best offensive troops. 5 FS against 2 Byz Inf, ProN, 2 Byz Lancers. A little help from archer fire is better. You may lose against Byz Inf, but should be able to win against B Lancer if you charge.
- Use archers to decimate their weakest troops (slav, spear) with the help of FMAA.
- Use cav on their foot archers. If you can't kill them quickly, just keep them moving so they can't fire. Beware of the Treb Archer.

Other things to consider:
- Kill their general if possible.
- Deploy on higher ground if possible.
- Use a pairs of HA to draw some enemy units away from your defensive line. Best if you can draw the Byz Inf away.

ichi has a good tactic to trap enemy strong troops. That also give the enemy all kinds of morale penalty (being out numbered, exposed flanks, isolated...)

This sounds like a good and fun battle. Don't feel bad if you lose a couple more. It's good practice.

[Seven.the.Hun]

sometimes when setting up on a hill to defend, i keep one fast and expendable foot unit around to charge the enemy as they are trying to set up a flank attack or move to higher ground and work their way around you...
they divert more and more men the closer u get, so it works to bait them into attacking more directly and uphill, an approach that has worked before for me

[Ragss]

Upload the save file, then let us try it

[TonkaToys]

So... how did it go? Were you victorious?

[Magraev]

yeah - we wanna know

[Rufus]

Thanks for the tips, all. I actually haven't had a chance to play again since Sunday. (Damn work ...)

Hopefully I will be able to try tonight ... and hopefully win the 1st or 2nd time before my fiancee gets too annoyed with me (Sadly, she's not a fan of computer games May have to wait till Wednesday night when she works late At least she's somewhat sympathetic to this situation, though. The other night when I was playing this battle over and over, I told her, "Sorry, I just hate losing." And she said she would hate losing too. She does enjoy helping me pick generals to marry princesses when other factions don't want them, though. )

But I digress. Thanks again

Oh - to answer some of the questions - The year is 1211 or so. I just got access to xbows and arbalests but didn't have any in this province, just vanilla archers. (Another reason the Byz Inf and their armor are such a problem) Both generals are 3-stars but I need to check out the v&v's - that's a good point. I wonder if mine has a morale vice, or the other guy has a morale virtue - one of the baffling things has been my troops are routing far sooner than theirs, especially for this being on a hillside, defending, on Easy (Yes I am very much a noob)

I've come close a couple of times. Each time, it starts out my kill ratio way overwhelming theirs as my archers hail arrows down as they climb up the hill, dozens of prisoners surrender. Then they gradually climb back into it (starting when the archers start having to back up) and I rout. Can definitely see how the HA would help. I should probably be further up the hill too.

It's not that important - I don't HAVE to hold this province, and even when the AI wins they lose 900+ men, which the Byz can't afford because of my successes against them elsewhere. I just feel like this is the kind of battle that I need to be able to win to get anywhere close to being good at the tactical game.

Thanks - I'll keep you all posted

[ROCKHAMMER]

Katank has given very good strategic advice in this matter. His tactics are sound and should work exceptionally well against the Byzantine force you described. In any case, good luck in your battle Never give up

[ah_dut]

On easy the AI sucks and is very vulnerable to katank's jav and Ha tactics. Their morale also sucks as you get a +4 morale bonus

[Rufus]

OK so I tried again. Another blood-washed defeat.

First of all, the terrain layout was different from the last two times, which didn't help. (I had unexpected trees ...)

I followed the advice about the HAs. Put them up front, then a spear wall with regular archers behind further up the hill. I put the mounted sergeants on the flanks to run down the Byz archers.

My HAs (mounted xbows) do pretty well at first. But the Byz Inf, spears and other inf keep pushing ahead anyway. There are just too many Byz Inf and their valor (and apparently morale) is high.

I may have jumped the gun in sending out the mounted sergeants to run down the archers. The Byz spears, further up than their archers, were able to intercept my horses. Meanwhile the archers fire away. I send in FMAA (only had 1 unit) and militia sergeants to relieve my cav. But the Pronoai cav are there by then and rip apart my FMAA and mil serg. Plus the fact that I've now pulled up much of my inf undermines my plan to lure the Byz up the hill into my archers. The battle is much further down the hill than I wanted, so I have to move my archers forward to fire. I've lost the height advantage, pretty much.

Plus I just have a hard time keeping up with everything that's going on during the battle - I guess that comes with practice. There were a couple of times when there were some of my units in unexpected places, idle.

So part of this is my lack of skill, but I really want to see if my general has a morale vice, or the other guy a morale virtue. It seems like my guys rout much too soon. Everyone was pretty much holding their own for a while, and the Byz Lancer unit with their general was in trouble. I was hoping to knock him off and upset the Byz morale. But my FS started wavering when they were bogged down (somehow) with some Slav warriors; when they routed, it was like a waterfall and everyone got the h*ll out of dodge.

The disparity in unit quality (Byz Inf really seem to kick a** ...) and valor is also a factor, but should be outweighed by this being on Easy.

I'll probably try one more time, hopefully tonight, and try harder to keep on top of what's going on in the battle. Even if I lose, as Simon says (hee hee), it's a Pyrrhic victory for the Byz. When my guys get ransomed back, my losses are about the same as the Byz, and they can't afford it as much as I can. I have almost five stacks of better troops just to the north in Trebizond - as soon as that siege is over some of them can swoop south and retake Anatolia.

Thanks

[ah_dut]

Good luck

[ROCKHAMMER]

Sounds to me like you may have jumped the gun a little bit. You are on defence so you do not want to send your troops after the enemy until they are routed. Hold back your troops and make the enemy come to you. Use your HA's to harass the enemy troops only until you get within your Archers' range. Then pull your HA's back to a support position on the flank or behind your shield wall. You sent your troops in to help your HA's when they were getting slaughtered and that cost you your whole battle plan. It is better to lose 1 unit than a whole province so even if things are going badly for 1 unit hold your troops back and stick to your plan. You should be able to win this battle...

[Ghostmonkey]

I don't know if this is advisable against the Byzantines, but I often used horse archers to preoccupy their general. You send the HA around the enemy army and have them shoot at the general who then gets distracted and leaves his army (hopefully) to pursue your horse archers. This is supposed to cause a morale penalty to enemy troops so it might help rout them faster.

[katank]

umm, sending the mounted sarges out unsupported is a very bad idea as they are not strong enough on their own and can rout easily.

wait patiently until you battle lines clashed to send them around the flanks to charge the enemy in the rear or pick off isolated archers.

note: the way to get the Byz inf to not ignore your mtd. x-bows is to order a charge at the Byz inf with your mtd. x-bows

the AI will turn around to face a charge even if it's from the other side of the map and this gives you valuable time to let your archers do more work.

when they do turn, stop the charge and feint at another unit.

this can stop the entire Byz army cold to eat arrows.

parking the mtd. x-bows behind their lines while you are engaged is also a good idea.

pepper their general and/or rear of their battle line.

their Byz inf actualyl only have 3 armor with 2 shield. thus, shooting them in the back drops em faster.

the units in the rear will also inflict a decent morale peanlty on them.

since you are playing on easy, your spears can easily hold for enough time for this to work and fancy maneuvering with mtd. sarges.

be sure to have your spears or any units in the front line on hold hold as you want them to last as long as possible and buy time for your missiles to kill and cav to maneuver for charging.

the anvil doens't kill: it's the hammer that does so make sure your anvil remains intact for the hammer to drop.

[TonkaToys]

Why not post a replay so we can look at what you are doing?
It would make it easier for us to spot the small errors that are compounding together to make you lose.

[ichi]

First why don't you take a look at the campaign map pre-battle and (assuming you have a Border fort or an agent available to look, find out what the stars and morale and V&Vs of the important Gens are?

Second, the thing in your post that caught my eye was that you sent cav after their archers but these were behind the enemy inf. don't let your cav get caught by the enemy cav or inf when skirmishing with archers. If the archers are behind the inf line move up your archers and shoot the inf. Keep your cav back and use as anticav to protect your flanks.

Finally, get up on the hill and do not send inf down - keep your battle line intact if possible.

ichi

[katank]

have the cav screen your flanks and hold the inf line intact with solid wall with archers in front who pull back if charged.

keeping your army intact is probably what your biggest problem is.

only have short maneuvers and keeping the forces together will keep morale sufficiently high.

having your mtd. sarges ganged up by spear, byz inf, and pronoiai isn't cool and take away from your armie's flanking abilities later or a battle turning charge into their rear.

keep your army stationary on a hill and the enemy archers shouldn't be a problem as your archers outrange their's due to elevation and you shouldn't need to charge them with cav to prevent inf from taking missile fire.

[Rufus]

Hey - thanks for the advice everyone. I finally won this battle

One key difference this time (I think the 6th or 7th attempt) was the terrain was slightly different for some reason (same province, though). This time, the hill was just as big, but not as steep. So my men were able to climb to a higher point.

Resisting my impulse to engage the enemy, I followed your advice and kept my lines together on the hill, only letting some of my cav's go off to chase down some annoying horse archers when the Byz HA's got separated from their group. I also made a big effort to keep my general out of harm's way.

The higher elevation of my men caused the Byz Inf and even their lancers and pronoiai to rout faster. Thus I was able to outlast the enemy. I won when the time expired - first time I won that way (They only had a few units left and those had recently routed anyway - they probably just didn't make it off the map when time ran out.)

One thing I should keep in mind in the future is to have more archers in my reinforcement pool in a defensive battle that seems likely to go down to the last man. Lacking more than a few archer units in my reinforcements eroded the height advantage somewhat as both sides called in reinforcements.

Thanks again, everyone Now MAYBE I'm ready for Normal level ...