Wedge formation

I've read a bit at the Shogun Academy and I came across the formation factors affecting the combat factor during battle...

+3 If attacker is in wedge formation

-3 If attacking a defender in wedge formation

Hence I understand that when my unit attacks in wedge formation it gets a +3 bonus in the combat factor. So far, so good.

Question A: My unit in wedge HAS to be the attacker (engages first) or else it won't get the bonus? And what happens if my unit in wedge is the defender?

Question B: I didn't really understand the second combat factor related to wedge formation. If you're attacking a defender who is in wedge formation why do you get -3? Why not +3?

Please help.

Thanks,

Tez.


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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka.
evil is within us...

[TosaInu]

I thought it was plus another 3 for the attacker when the defender is in wedge.

That's what the Prima Strategy Guide says.

[Mithrandir]

Quote Originally posted by Terazawa Tokugawa:
I've read a bit at the Shogun Academy and I came across the formation factors affecting the combat factor during battle...

+3 If attacker is in wedge formation

-3 If attacking a defender in wedge formation

Hence I understand that when my unit attacks in wedge formation it gets a +3 bonus in the combat factor. So far, so good.

Question A: My unit in wedge HAS to be the attacker (engages first) or else it won't get the bonus? And what happens if my unit in wedge is the defender?

Question B: I didn't really understand the second combat factor related to wedge formation. If you're attacking a defender who is in wedge formation why do you get -3? Why not +3?

Please help.

Thanks,

Tez.


[/QUOTE]

What's the Shogun academy ?
and what if 2 wedges attack eachother ?

[Puzz3D]

In this context attacker and defender refer to the combat cycle where the individual men take turns attacking and defending during hth combat. All this +3/-3 means is that 3 points are shifted from the defend value to the melee value in the combat stats when you put the unit into wedge. That's why the manual says that wedge formation is for breaking through lines more quickly. Kensai can go into wedge and get the same 3 point shift.
When you put a unit in hold formation 2 points are shifted the other way from melee to defend. This is one reason why guns are such a problem in v102. This 2 point shift was overlooked when we left the defend value for musk and arq unchanged.

If you combine wedge and hold, you are really defeating the purpose of the formations because you only end up with a net 1 point shift from defend to melee.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[Mithrandir]

The Shogun Academy is the manual ?

I didnt receive a nice little book with it...

just a tiny folder with tech help.

the rest is on some stupid PDF file

I WANT A PAPER MANUAL...

dont say print it...

[RageMonsta]

print it...

now what ya gonna do?

[Sjakihata]

I too recieved a pdf

U cannot read that while in your bed!

I think the acadamy is something here at the .org

[Jaguara]

Câlisse!

I can't even print mine on my Laserjet 4! All the fuinky graphics on the pages cause my printer to eventually freak out...

I could always dig out my old dot matrix though...

Jaguara

[Vanya]

Quote Originally posted by Jaguara:
Câlisse!

I can't even print mine on my Laserjet 4! All the fuinky graphics on the pages cause my printer to eventually freak out...

I could always dig out my old dot matrix though...

Jaguara[/QUOTE]

As you view the PDF, take screen captures! Then, print the images of the screen captures! Voila! You have a hardcopy!

GAH!

You can thank me now.

Can we remain on the original topic please

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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka.
evil is within us...

[Dionysus9]

As always, Yuuki's explanation is excellent. To re-phrase it in laymens terms, remeber:

A unit in Wedge formation fights FASTER than a unit in close formation.

This means that the Wedged unit Kills faster, but also that it Dies faster.

So, when do you want to use a wedge formation? Cavalry vs. Archers when no spears are around is a good example.

The cav will deal out its damage faster (shredding the crap out of the archers),
and the archers will deal out their damage faster (because Cav's defense is -3)...and even at that quicker rate of dealing damage the archers will not really hurt the Cav much(absent high honor or multiple upgrades).

So when you are sending a unit into a fight they cannot lose, WEDGE formation makes sense. That unit will take slightly higher casualties, but it will defeat the weaker unit quickly and be ready for more action (i.e. flanking) much faster.

And, actually, Yuuki, the effect of a Hold Formation order on a Wedge may even destroy the Wedge effect more than the +2/-2 modifier of a hold formation. This is because the Wedged unit runs up to the enemy and then attacks with only the "point man". This point man is now enjoying a +1 attack, -1 defense...(wedge and hold), but the other men in the wedged unit just stand there.

So as far as I can tell, the effectiveness of a Wedge in Hold Form is seriously hampered to the point it is useful only when defending against an inferior unit. And even then I would want my men enganging quickly...

[tootee]

You were talking about this?
http://shogun-academy.tripod.com/dojo_ch3_pg2.html

Got it from the prima guide.

The way I see it, on how best to use these two commands, is this:

1. Given that all units enagaging are relatively equal in combat strength (i.e. almost same combat point), it is a better idea to put a unit on hold the line (and in close formation) when engaging two or more enemy units. This is because in each combat cycle, it can only attack once but can be attacked multiple times. The idea is to reduce the rate of casualty of this unit.

2. Given that you have equal number of h2h units, situation (1) will infer that somewhere else you will have more than one unit engaging a single enemy unit. In this case the wedge formation can be put to good use. 1st engage enemy unit using one of your unit in close formation engage-at-will, and then send in the second or more units in wedge. The later units probably will not be attacked by the enemy unit, while you shift 3 combat points from defence to improve their attack --> increase the rate of kill.

So the whole thing is about killing off one side of the enemy faster than he can kill yours (given everything else being equal), either to trigger the chain-rout, or otherwise.

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy
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[This message has been edited by tootee (edited 06-12-2002).]

[Puzz3D]

Dionysus9,
Good point about wedge and hold combined only using the point man to fight. Now it would seem that the wedge/hold combination would be good resisting the advance of a superior unit in single line and hold. Although, it's clearly a tactical mistake to have a really high quality unit in hold. Many players use single line formations of YS to sweep the field, but they are not necessarily kept in hold. If you are good at visually assessing whether an enemy unit is in hold formation, you may be able to use weak unit wedge/hold combo to advantage. In any case, certainly use hold if you are weaker unless you are making a flank or rear attack on a unit that is already engaged.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan TakiYama ~~~

[tootee]

Wedge in hold-the-line is not good to use, because overall, you are just shifting one defence pt over to attack pt, and should your enemy rout and run, this unit will not give chase *unless you keep an eye on it constantly and micro-manage*.

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy
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[tootee]

Oh I get what Tosa meant.. sorry there is a typo error in the page, yes it should be +3, not -3. Sorry for the mistake.

Thanks for pointing out the mistake Tera and Tosa.

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy
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[This message has been edited by tootee (edited 06-12-2002).]

[Puzz3D]

tootee,
The language explaining the effect of wedge in that Prima Guide is certainly confusing. However, I think we have the right understanding of how it works.

Regarding bringing in a second unit to attack, I think it's good to get a clear line of attack on the enemy unit if you can. Trying to engage the enemy unit through your own unit seems to be less effective, but if that's the only line of attack you have I guess you have to use it. It's not good to wait because, if your first unit routs, all your nearby units get hit with a morale penalty.

MizuYuuki ~~~

[Puzz3D]

If both units are in wedge, it's +3 for attacker and -3 for defender which is a net 6 point difference which will accelerate combat attrition by a factor of 3x.
MizuYuuki ~~~

Hehe yes I was confused by that -3. No worries though, your site is just fanstastic, really, Tootee. The best shogun for MP players, definetely.

Thanks for the great explanation guys, and thanks for the simple language Dion.

More on hold formation: so it is the opposite of wedge?. Units take less casualties but die slower?

Hmm, hence I think it would be very good if you put your superior (if superior...) infantry units in wedge so that they kill fast? Is that right?

And last question, wedge formation should only be applied before and during the units go "attacking" but it should be removed when units are engaged?

Thanks

T.


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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka.
evil is within us...

[tootee]

Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:
tootee,
Regarding bringing in a second unit to attack, I think it's good to get a clear line of attack on the enemy unit if you can. Trying to engage the enemy unit through your own unit seems to be less effective, but if that's the only line of attack you have I guess you have to use it. It's not good to wait because, if your first unit routs, all your nearby units get hit with a morale penalty.

MizuYuuki ~~~ [/QUOTE]
Yep, when I mentioned about the sending in the 2nd and rest, I dont mean to wait and see how the 1st unit is doing, but rather, have the 1st unit engaged enemy first in close formation so that the enemy unit will be attacking my unit of higher defence pt during the combat cycle. The 2nd and more units to follow-up is almost immediate so that there is maximum time of my units 2-on-1 on the enemy unit.

Another good use of wedge is when SA run out of ammo, and in good size (>45?). You can try sending a team of SA to flank in wedge *don't send individual SA cos normally people have them at low honor and indiv low honor SA surely will rout when it is far away from friendly troops and behind enemy lines*.

This will increase they killing rate to help in faster overpowering that flank. But watch out enemy uncommitted cav.


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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy
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[tootee]

Quote Originally posted by Terazawa Tokugawa:
More on hold formation: so it is the opposite of wedge?. Units take less casualties but die slower?[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't take wedge as opposite of hold formation. Although they adjust the att/def pts of the unit in opposite direction, but functionally they serve different purpose. Wedge on hold is like telling the men to kill as fast and as reckless disregarding one safety, but not to give chase and maintain momentum when the enemy rout.

Quote
Hmm, hence I think it would be very good if you put your superior (if superior...) infantry units in wedge so that they kill fast? Is that right?
[/QUOTE]

I think I will only put those units with no/weak charge bonus on wedge *since those with strong charge bonus will already be able to kill easily in the 1st few sec of h2h, no pt for reducing their def*, though I seldom use wedge during the normal h2h, more for my flanking teams and SA, and even these are rare occasions.

Quote
And last question, wedge formation should only be applied before and during the units go "attacking" but it should be removed when units are engaged?
[/QUOTE]

Think this question had been raised b4. But I'm not sure how really effective is this technique.


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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy
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[Puzz3D]

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Tera,
Hold formation is very important because in addition to raising the defensive combat stat, albeit at the expense of melee, fatigue and morale are maintained at a higher level because those factors are averaged over all the men in the unit and not all the men are engaged. If your unit is 5 or 6 men deep, hold formation has a tremendous effect on how long that unit will fight.

I'm always reluctant to use wedge because of the higher attrition rate on my unit. Routing is such a big disadvantage. Some players use wedge to initially engage, and then switch it off soon after engaging. Possibly the men in a unit attacking a stationary unit get the first strike and the +3 on attack would be nice to have for that. My own feeling is that properly managing the charge bonus is more important, but every little bit helps.

Considering that routing that first enemy unit is so important, use of wedge with an advantageous matchup is going to get that enemy unit to rout quicker. Now the question is, do you want the enemy unit to rout quicker or do you want the unit to rout a bit later when all of the other enemy units are at lower morale from taking casualties and more likey to be swept away in a chain rout? Resolving the advantageous matchup quicker does free that unit to attack some other unit, but you have to watch it closely so that your unit doesn't take itself out of the battle by pursuing the routed enemy.

MizuYuuki ~~~

Very true Yuuki. Thanks for the suggestions.
And you Tootee-san.

I understand your reluctance to not use wedge, and I agree there. However I am sure there are occasions where wedge comes very very handy. Tootee mentioned that the use of wedge in weak charged-bonused units is useful...but 2 questions:

a. Normally units with weak charge bonus have a high defense value. If you put them in wedge you would gain a bigger attack bonus helping the unit but wouldn't you also risk to reduce their only practical good point...ie. their defense?

b. Also, a nodachi in wedge would have a terrific initial impact and will kill really really fast if its combat factor is higher than the enemy's. Is that actually right? Or it would reduce the nodachi's defense a lot...maybe too much?



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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka.
evil is within us...

[Wavesword]

Good thread guys. I assume wedge would be the formation to use if your position were a precarious one, if you are holding up a flank with 2 naginata you want to use wedgies on the other flank before you get sandwiched. Does being in a wedge with hf increase missile casualties?

[Puzz3D]

Tera,
The shift in combat points with wedge and hold are not nearly enough to convert a naginata into a killing machine or a no-dachi into a brick wall. It is generally opposed to a unit's intended purpose to give a defensive unit more attack or an offensive unit more defend, but sometimes you don't have the ideal unit available for a given situation, and have to make do with what you have.

The difficuly I have with loosing men is that you can't replace them, and the number of men in a unit have a terrific impact on how well they do in combat. Ideally it will balance out and you will have exactly the same number of men left at the end. However, the rate of kills affects morale, and with accelerated casualties, the rout is going to occur at a point where more men are left in the routing unit and thus more men should also be left in the winning unit. It's partly a perception that I'll loose more men in wedge, and probably is not actually be the case. I'm not a big wedge user, and can't really speak from experince. I would use wedge mostly when you have a helper unit coming in for a flank or rear attack on an enemy that's already engaged as Tootee suggests, but I may start experimenting with wedge more now. I'm a big user of hold formation, and it may just be a matter of style of play whether one tends to use wedge or hold.

MizuYuuki ~~~

I see, thanks Yuuki. I know some guys who use wedge a lot (Dareal an example), I'm sure they may fill in more info gameplay-wise.



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Proud member of Clan Kenchikuka.
evil is within us...

[Dionysus9]

Yuuki,

Good point-- once lost, a soldier can not be replaced.

I think your instict about wedge formation causing greater losses is exactly right. It is the same reason that I rarely use wedge (that, and the fact that you have to micro-manage so a some "scissors" dont come along and cut up your wedged "paper" while you are not watching).

It has been my experience (and if I recall from old experiments with the Shoggy Battle Calc.) that:

In a 1 unit v. 1 unit fight, and all other factors being equal, a unit in wedge will lose more men than if it was in close formation. The benefit is that the combat is resolved quickly.

So, lets say, 4H nagicav w/ armor upgrade v. 2H musks. Anyway you cut it, the Cav is gonna cream the musks:

If you have all day to wait for the musks to rout, then keep the nagicav in close form...this will take a little longer, but the cav will win with very few casualties (maybe 2 if its heavily raining or the musks dont get off a good shot).

If you need the cav somewhere else (i.e., you want to attack the next musket unit in a long line), then you should resolve this combat as quickly as possible--put the cav in wedge. They may lose a few more men than they would have in close form, but you need speed, so wedge is best. Maybe you lose 4 nagi's in wedge where you would lose 2 in close form...would have to be tested.

I'm convinced from my own experience that wedge formation is risky and can easily backfire if a matchup isnt what you thought it would be (those H2 YS have full armor and weapon upgrades)... or some other enemy unit comes along and crashes your party.

A unit in wedge formation that gets flanked while engaged is in deep doggy-doo.

[tootee]

Quote Originally posted by Terazawa Tokugawa:
a. Normally units with weak charge bonus have a high defense value. If you put them in wedge you would gain a bigger attack bonus helping the unit but wouldn't you also risk to reduce their only practical good point...ie. their defense?
[/QUOTE]

A valid point there. That's may be why not many use wedge in this way.

Quote
b. Also, a nodachi in wedge would have a terrific initial impact and will kill really really fast if its combat factor is higher than the enemy's. Is that actually right? Or it would reduce the nodachi's defense a lot...maybe too much?
[/QUOTE]

Base on the formula probability-to-hit = 0.19*1.2^Combat_Factor

where combat_factor = Attacker att_pt - Defender def_pt

and I think someone (Yuuki?) mentioned that this probability of hit has a clipping value. Taking ND6 vs YS6A1. With charge, the initial ND attacks with 11+8-9=10 combat_factor, which I think will result in clipping the probability-to-hit to a max value, e.g. 95%?. So I see no point in shifting def_pt to att_pt since the result is gonnabe clipped, and in return allows the enemy a higher chance of killing.

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy
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[Wavesword]

Doesn't the Wedge increase missile casualties, from tighter formation, more through musket casualties, loss of defence and such?

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"On a rock hill you must take an earthy site; on an earth hill, a rocky site. Where it is confined take an open place, where it is open, take a confined space. On a prominence take the flat; where it is flat take the prominent. Where strong comes, take weak; where weak comes, take strong. Where there are many hills, take water; where there is much water, take hills.."

Extract from a Chinese feng shui manual

[Puzz3D]

I think there is a disadvantage to wedge when under missle attack.
Archers seem to aim for the center of the formation, but the arrow's trajectory causes a lot of overshoots. The wedge has more men at the back of the formation, and they will be in the path of the overshoots.

Guns have low accuracy, and therefore miss a lot. A deep formation like a wedge is probably going to sustain more secondary hits.

The best formation for minimizing casualties from ranged fire is a line one man deep.

MizuYuuki ~~~

[Maedhros]

I certainly appreciate everthing everybody has said regarding the Wedge formation.

It is a risk, but one that may payoff in the right circumstances. I tend to use them occasionally and it seems to go well for me.

Has anyone ever used them for Archer formations? Allows you to place large numbers of archers along a narrow front.

My experience is that they are more accurate than when in a deep formation but obviously less then in a shallow formation.

Their massed numbers make up for any short fall and can quickly charge in to relieve fatiguing Yari when the arrows are expended.

The shock of this assault is typically enough to send the enemy in retreat and allow a much smaller force of Yari to persue and finish them. So far my Archers haven't suffered hight attrition while doing this mostly because the attack is only brief enough to get the job done.

Wedge attacks should never be used for any length of time. Go in and get back out quickly while somebody else cleans up the mess you made of their formation.



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KZ
"A positive attitute may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort."

Herm Albright