German WW2 troops

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I would like to know what are your opinions about the people that fought in the different German forces. I'm talking about Wermacht, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, SS soldiers, commanders, etc...

My doubt are these:

Do most people mistake the regime and it's values with ALL the men that fought on it's armies?

Isn't there an excessivelly generalised perception that the only good German WW2 soldier was a dead German WW2 soldier?

Can all WW2 Germans combatants be classified as Nazi simpathysers?

And, last but not least, do we have the perception today that ALL Allied soldiers were angels and unable to perform dreadfull acts on the battlefield?

Your thoughts please...

[Red Peasant]

I remember growing up with a very high regard for the German troops of WWII, as soldiers, and it seemed to be a general viewpoint amongst Britons. It was quite clear that the problem was the regime they were fighting for.

[Tribesman]

Quote[/b] ]Can all WW2 Germans combatants be classified as Nazi simpathysers?

Of course not , but they had to take a pledge of allgience to country , leader and party .

Quote[/b] ]do we have the perception today that ALL Allied soldiers were angels and unable to perform dreadfull acts on the battlefield?

War is war , people are individuals , unusual situations lead to unusual actions .

[Mount Suribachi]

Were they all Nazis? No of course not. But for sure some of them will have been.

As for the performance of "dreadful acts on the battlefield", British American & Canadian troops for sure killed prisoners, looted etc. The difference is that it was never on an organisational level. There were no Malmedy's by the allies, or entire towns shot (forget the name of that French town where it happened).

As far as they go as soldiers, the Germans were bloody good - near unbeatable in the 1st 3 years of the war. The quality of their NCO's and junior officers was second to none throughout the war.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Red Peasant @ June 05 2004,14:23)]I remember growing up with a very high regard for the German troops of WWII, as soldiers, and it seemed to be a general viewpoint amongst Britons. It was quite clear that the problem was the regime they were fighting for.

Yes, there is no denying their military prowess. I was refering more to the popular perception of:

WW2 German = Nazi

So, since the comemorations of WW2 Allied victory are performed to hommage the Allied soldiers, why not to pay some respect to the Axis soldiers too? I'm, obviously not refering to the Gestapo or SS, but to the soldiers of the regular armies who fought for the defense of their countries.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Tribesman @ June 05 2004,18:47)]

Quote[/b] ]Can all WW2 Germans combatants be classified as Nazi simpathysers?

Of course not , but they had to take a pledge of allgience to country , leader and party.

True. You have a point. But many of them hated the nazis and still died fighting for their country. They should be respected, not mixed up with those that imposed that disgusting ideology. People must not make generalizations.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]do we have the perception today that ALL Allied soldiers were angels and unable to perform dreadfull acts on the battlefield?

War is war, people are individuals ,unusual situations lead to unusual actions.

But unjustifiable executions of German POWs also happened among Allied soldiers. A big one happened in Normandy just a few days after the disembarkment. That must also not be forgotten.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

An SS regiment( i think it was a Panzer one) gunned down captured American soldiers in the Bulge Campaign. Some seventy i believe.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Mount Suribachi @ June 06 2004,04:07)]Were they all Nazis? No of course not. But for sure some of them will have been.

True.

Quote[/b] ]As for the performance of "dreadful acts on the battlefield", British, American & Canadian troops for sure killed prisoners, looted etc.

There were also French, Norwegian, Polish and other nation's soldiers involved in the desimbarkment.

I've not refered the Russians, who were pretty horrible in commiting atrocities, because I do not exactly include them amongst Allied troops.

Quote[/b] ]The difference is that it was never on an organisational level. There were no Malmedy's by the allies, or entire towns shot (forget the name of that French town where it happened).

Of course. I'm not claiming that comparations can be made with the SS execution units. I'm talking that some Allied acts of execution were based in personal prejudice and were performed at a low organizational level, but they still happened anyway.

ALL those poor innocents that died for no reason during the war.

Quote[/b] ]As far as they go as soldiers, the Germans were bloody good - near unbeatable in the 1st 3 years of the war. The quality of their NCO's and junior officers was second to none throughout the war.

Yes. People tend to forget that they were almost a single country (the Japanese were far away, the Italians had an obsolete army, and the Finns, although outstandigly brave and corageous, were just a few) fighting and holding on in several fronts and against several countries throughtout 6 long years of war Incredible

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (The Blind King of Bohemia @ June 06 2004,10:37)]An SS regiment( i think it was a Panzer one) gunned down captured American soldiers in the Bulge Campaign. Some seventy i believe.

Wasn't that near Bastogne, the town defended by the 101st US Airborne Division? Bastogne was an essencial comunications crossroad. Any army controling it, would have an imense advantage in the whole region in the following weeks. The Germans were desperate to take it. But those tough Eagles were holding their own. The Panzergrenadiere got so frustrated that they no longer made prisioners. IIRC, that caused retaliations and later lead to excrutiating acts from both sides...

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Could have been. I'll a have a look around for the book

[Vlad The Impaler]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 06 2004,10:44)]Yes. People tend to forget that they were almost a single country (the Japanese were far away, the Italians had an obsolete army, and the Finns, although outstandigly brave and corageous, were just a few) fighting and holding on in several fronts and against several countries throughtout 6 long years of war Incredible

there were also a lot of Romanians that were fighting on the eastern front , almost 1 milion soldiers in 4 years of war.
for more info about romanian participation on eastern front along with germans u can surf this site :
http://www.worldwar2.ro/

english version available

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Vlad The Impaler @ June 06 2004,11:00)]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 06 2004,10:44)]Yes. People tend to forget that they were almost a single country (the Japanese were far away, the Italians had an obsolete army, and the Finns, although outstandigly brave and corageous, were just a few) fighting and holding on in several fronts and against several countries throughtout 6 long years of war Incredible

there were also a lot of Romanians that were fighting on the eastern front , almost 1 milion soldiers in 4 years of war.
for more info about romanian participation on eastern front along with germans u can surf this site :
http://www.worldwar2.ro/

english version available

Sorry for not including them. I forgot. And many people don't even know it. I personally know little about their role. That must be an heritage of Comunist censorship, right?

BTW, gret link...

[Vlad The Impaler]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 06 2004,11:15)]That must be an heritage of Comunist censorship, right?

BTW, gret link...

exactly.my grandfathers fought in Russia all war.one died near Stalingrad the other survive and fought in Hungary , Austria and Czechoslovakia.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I heard somewhere that the Romanians had the most(apart from Germany)members in the SS. Is that true or utter crap

[Vlad The Impaler]

Quote[/b] (The Blind King of Bohemia @ June 06 2004,11:29)]I heard somewhere that the Romanians had the most(apart from Germany)members in the SS. Is that true or utter crap

no.it is crap.SS had walone , estonian , lituanian , letonian , russian ( gen. Vlasov ) , ukrainian ( gen.Kaminsky ) , albanese , norse but NO romanian units at all.

some romanians were recruted for a unit but they were in very small numbers.most were member of Iron Guard ( Legion of Mihail Archangel ) , romanian extreme right wing party but slightly difrrent from italians or germans comrades .

after the defeat of Iron Guard by marechal Antonescu , chief of the state, many of them were imprisoned. some shock units were formed by the member of this political movement and they were sent to fight in Russia in disciplinar batalions. just a small number survived. they fought in romanian ranks , not in german ones. they were ferocious anti-communists and the survivors formed after the war partisan resitance groups against russian occupation. the died hoping that the americans will come some day and beat the bear.

[Crimson Castle]

I'm sorry, but what were the German soldiers fighting for again? :)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Vlad The Impaler @ June 06 2004,11:47)]the died hoping that the americans will come some day and beat the bear.

That wouldn't be possible after Ialta.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Thanks for clearing that up Vlad

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ June 06 2004,12:22)]I'm sorry, but what were the German soldiers fighting for again? :)

So, in accordance to your oppinion they were ALL nazies, right?

[Cebei]

AFAIK, the army was not in favor of Hitler since the very beginning, but they had to play along with the momentum of expansion.

Most of the Germans in WW2 were in search of their national dignity, that was lost at the end of WW1. Thus I always read the powerful momentum of the German army as their recovery of their self-respect through invasion.

Not necessarily all of them liked Hitler.

[ah_dut]

Most of the troops by the end were conscripts so i doubt their SS credentials

[Crimson Castle]

Wait, before we go on and start a thread about how glorious, great, and lovely the German soldiers were. I beg you all to take a good look at what exactly they were fighting for - namely the Third Reich. Consider what Hitler and the Nazis were on about - read Hitler's public speeches against the Jews and other "sub-humans" and the public atrocities and crimes the Nazis were committing in the country. Remember, it wasn't the Nazis that invaded Poland in 1939, Russia in 1941 etc.. It was the GERMAN ARMY.

As for the idea that the German soldiers had NO IDEA of the atrocities being committed, I also ask that you consider the factual data - namely, the numerous concentration camps set up around the German Reich, the routine execution of partisans, civilian hostages, prisoners of war, esp. in the East. Not to mention - the very public systemic brutal treatment meted out to Jews, Gypsies, Slavs etc..

Look, go and read a good book about it - try this one:

The German Army and Genocide: Crimes Against War Prisoners, Jews and Other Civilians in the East, 1939-44
Omer Bartov (Foreword), Hannes Heer, Hamburg Institute for Social Research (Editor), Scott Abbott (Translator), New Press, 1999.

You can buy it from Amazon

http://snipurl.com/6ww5

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ June 07 2004,13:02)]Wait, before we go on and start a thread about how glorious, great, and lovely the German soldiers were.

What was it that of my previous posts you haven't understand? Maybe my English is too rusty or is it yourse?

It was NEVER my intention to glorify the Nazi regime or the German soldier. My intention was to discuss if the people's perception about German soldiers in WW2 corresponds to reality.

Quote[/b] ]I beg you all to take a good look at what exactly they were fighting for - namely the Third Reich. Consider what Hitler and the Nazis were on about - read Hitler's public speeches against the Jews and other "sub-humans" and the public atrocities and crimes the Nazis were committing in the country. Remember, it wasn't the Nazis that invaded Poland in 1939, Russia in 1941 etc.. It was the GERMAN ARMY.

Correct. There is no denying that. But I do not believe that EVERY American is pro-Bush or Republican just because they have invaded Irak. So, you reasoning that they were all nazis is invalid. Some might only be inputable for passivity.

Quote[/b] ]As for the idea that the German soldiers had NO IDEA of the atrocities being committed, I also ask that you consider the factual data - namely, the numerous concentration camps set up around the German Reich, the routine execution of partisans, civilian hostages, prisoners of war, esp. in the East. Not to mention - the very public systemic brutal treatment meted out to Jews, Gypsies, Slavs etc..

Sure. A 20 year-old farmer in the countryside would have a vast perception of the intricacies of the Holocaust.

There is still another approach. In Stalin's regime nobody (even the high ranks) rebelled against him. Why? Fear. A similar approach can explain, in some cases, some of the reactions of the German population. Remember the regime of beatings and repression that outrulled other parties in the elections that lead to Hitler's rise to power?

Quote[/b] ]Look, go and read a good book about it - try this one:

The German Army and Genocide: Crimes Against War Prisoners, Jews and Other Civilians in the East, 1939-44
Omer Bartov (Foreword), Hannes Heer, Hamburg Institute for Social Research (Editor), Scott Abbott (Translator), New Press, 1999.

You can buy it from Amazon

http://snipurl.com/6ww5

I recommend you a good reading also. To put imputability into perspective:

The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb

Hiroshima : Why America Dropped the Atomic Bomb

Or do you want me to talk about the abuse performed on Autralian Aborigenes? Maybe of the motion that made them of the human species only having been approved in the 60's?

I think this might bring you some better views on the matters at hand...

[Crimson Castle]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 06 2004,08:07)]I would like to know what are your opinions about the people that fought in the different German forces. I'm talking about Wermacht, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, SS soldiers, commanders, etc...

My doubt are these:

Do most people mistake the regime and it's values with ALL the men that fought on it's armies?

Isn't there an excessivelly generalised perception that the only good German WW2 soldier was a dead German WW2 soldier?

Can all WW2 Germans combatants be classified as Nazi simpathysers?

And, last but not least, do we have the perception today that ALL Allied soldiers were angels and unable to perform dreadfull acts on the battlefield?

Your thoughts please...

Excuse me, but you asked for our opinions and thoughts about German soldiers, did you not? So when I voice my opinion on the matter why are you getting all heated up and all?

Moreover, I am not saying that all the German soldiers were Nazis or wicked demons etc.. But there is NO getting around the fact that they were fighting for a wicked cause - Nazism - and there the German Army regularly practised systematic atrocities - ie it wasn't committed by a few individuals but it was a routine practise.

Now if you want to sing the praises of German soldiers who were courageously shooting up Allied soldiers climbing up on the shores of Omaha beach, well.... its not all the same you know. We all gotta take sides.

[bighairyman]

Now i'm sure that there are some Units in the German army that were fanatics of Nazism, and massacre villages and prisoners. But i must say not ALL German soldiers were fighting for Nazism, some of them were fighting for their farms, their family, their country. Myabe they knew of all the killing, but what can they do about it. Remember those massacres were encouraged by the government, those soldiers killing prisoners weren't gonna be punished by the government. now Crimson Castle, i can see that you are from Australia, now suppose one day you guys decide to invade New Zealand, and you are part of the army. Your government order is to kill every New Zea lander you see, and your comrades in arms begin killing, what are you gonna do?


Now the Allies weren't perfect angels During Operation Torch, the US invasion of North Africa, the US army was getting it's a$$ raped by the Germans in the one battle(forgot the name now), But after the battle, that were some massacres of German POWs by US soldiers. I'm sure at least some of you nows Dresden. The Allies bombed it with incendiary bombs, burning much of the historic buildings and killing civilians. there was no need, the War could have been won even if they didn't do it, and don't get me going with all the civilians killed by th allies.

What we have to understand is that War is Hell, there is no good guys VS Bad guys. Only men trying to loyally serve their country and do the best they could to stay alive.

[Hetman]

First. The war crimes.

I agree that soldiers in every army were killing POWs or civilians, but
Wehrmacht was ordered to beheave in such way, I mean in Eastern Europe, considering Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, but not only.

Just 3 facts which should be not forgotten

I remember a documentary presented about 3 years ago in Polish TV, it was about an American Indian tribal chief who fought in polish resistance. He described Germans entering a small town in northern Poland. They beheaved as normal, average soldiers with one exception -
one of them shot a 6 years old kid just because he was STARING at him, and NO OTHER GERMAN SOLDIER intervened. The story was so horrible that I remember to this day.
Wehrmacht commited horrible crimes in Poland, Yugoslavia and Russia during the war - they were ordered to do such things and very many obeyed. Remember the village in France where all civilians were killed,
it happened in eastern Europe almost EVERY DAY e.g. in Poland more than 200 villages were burned to the ground, every inhabitant killed.

Killing innocent, defenceless civilians was also quite common in Luftwaffe. For example I'm sure You know the stories about Junkers Ju 87 Stuka planes killing refugees who were running away before German army. It is true, it really happened. Quite many times German aircrafts
were 'hunting' for civilians - maybe because they were bored, I don't know.


During uprising in Warsaw in 1944 ( not the ghetto uprising) - the German army was using 'human shields' i.e. captured civilians were herded before tanks and infantrymen when they were storming fortified positions of Polish resistance fighters.


Sorry, but whatever You think or know. American, British or other Allied forces were never using civilians as 'human shields'.


Second.

The quality.

Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine and SS had wery good soldiers. Their
achievements were really impressive - especially fighter pilots - more than 100 pilots shot down more than 100 planes each, and two ( Hartmann and Novotny) even more than 300. Such soldiers as tank ace Wittman or bomber pilot Rudel ( about 600 tanks destroyed, 1 Russian battleship sunk) are really legendary warriors.

But not every German soldier was so good, not every German unit was perfect.

two examples.

In September 1939 German troops were trying to capture polish Baltic naval bases and ports.
One of the targets was a small outpost in northern Danzig called Westerplatte. Here just one company of infantry ( but better equipped and fortified a little) was defending for 7 DAYS LOOSING ONLY 18 men despite naval ( one small battleship), aerial ( one airstrike), artillery bombardment and several assaults of 2000+ infantrymen. They held for such a long time partly because all this bombardment was innacurate - for example artillery was overshooting for most of the time.
Another blunder was the assault on Polish Post Office in Danzig - about
30 employees held for one day - the Germans had to use artillery, armoured cars and probably flamethrowers to get inside.
It was just an ordinary Post Office, nothing more, after the fight they killed the captured defenders claiming they were not POWs.
Generally German army which was supposed to capture polish coastline
was achieved few successes, especially Kriegsmarine which wasn't even able to seriously demage a polish submarine.
In the end of the campaign not even one of the submarines was destroyed
- 3 travelled to Sweden and two even were able to reach England.

Second about SS units during the campaign.
Generally the units were humilated quite many times. Lack of training and discipline was quickly obvious to all.

These are most famous 'achievements' of SS in 1939.
Danzig SS suffered heavy losses when their commander decided to attack along a road - they were perfect target and get massacred by machine guns.
'Germania' SS regiment was easily suprised at Lvov by two polish infantry divisions. The result is easy to imagine - they were crushed - except this the unit 'achieved' nothing in 1939.
'Kempf' Armoured Division which consisted mostly of SS units suffered heavy losses when their commander decided to 'charge' across a minefield in front of fortified positions of polish 20th Infantry Division - again the unit wasn't very famous, the reasons seem to be obvious, especilly after this performance.

Generally only in France and after SS proved they are good soldiers, but not in Poland.

regards Hetman

[SwordsMaster]

Ok, Im going to join the discussion.

First of all, as soldiers, the german soldiers were very good. They just wouldnt take out France with such ease if they hadnt been.

From what I read about ideologies, there was quite a good number of german soldiers fighting with the russians, and I believe that socal pressure forced a good number of the soldiers to adhere to the regime.


And apart from that think about this:

A soldiers duty is to obey his superiors, which obey the government, right?

If the government says to kill someone and the soldier does not, he is judged by a military court and then (probably) killed. As you may understand that is not a pleasant perspective.

The atrocities were just that, atrocities and theres no way of justifying that.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Crimson Castle @ June 07 2004,21:40)]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ June 06 2004,08:07)]I would like to know what are your opinions about the people that fought in the different German forces. I'm talking about Wermacht, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, SS soldiers, commanders, etc...

My doubt are these:

Do most people mistake the regime and it's values with ALL the men that fought on it's armies?

Isn't there an excessivelly generalised perception that the only good German WW2 soldier was a dead German WW2 soldier?

Can all WW2 Germans combatants be classified as Nazi simpathysers?

And, last but not least, do we have the perception today that ALL Allied soldiers were angels and unable to perform dreadfull acts on the battlefield?

Your thoughts please...

Excuse me, but you asked for our opinions and thoughts about German soldiers, did you not? So when I voice my opinion on the matter why are you getting all heated up and all?

You are right. I was incorrect. I am sorry.

Quote[/b] ]Moreover, I am not saying that all the German soldiers were Nazis or wicked demons etc.. But there is NO getting around the fact that they were fighting for a wicked cause - Nazism - and there the German Army regularly practised systematic atrocities - ie it wasn't committed by a few individuals but it was a routine practise.

What do you define as German Army? The SS units were hated by the Wermacht regulars. Did the Wermacht performed atrocities? Probably a few, but very few can claim innocence in such aspects. That the SS and Gestapo were vile, cruel, sadist, fanatic war criminals is not at stake. They were and probably the worst in History.

Quote[/b] ]Now if you want to sing the praises of German soldiers who were courageously shooting up Allied soldiers climbing up on the shores of Omaha beach, well.... its not all the same you know. We all gotta take sides.

Was that necessary? Their motives were wrong, to say the least, but did they ALL behave as cold-blooded assassins?

[Rosacrux]

Interesting discussion... well, first of all, the Wehrmacht did commit a whole bunch of atrocities, not only "a few".

In Greece - which I know all too well - the atrocities of the German occupying forces were horendous. Not as bad as Russia and the Baltic States, but equally bad as Yugoslavia and Poland.

They had burned down whole villages, after shooting every man, woman and kid. They would kill randomly people just for the sport of it. They would loot and rape without discrimination. They would regularely perform mass executions.

Post WW2 some studies have shown that, out of the massive atrocities conducted by the Germans during the occupation of Greece:

- about 38% of the atrocities were performed by SS and Waffen SS troops.

- about 25% were commited by the local fascists, those who cooperated with the regime (just like the Ustaci in Yugoslavia, here we called them "Security Divisions")

- about 10% cannot be attributed to a particular branch of the German military, or where direct actions of Secret Police or individual actions.

- The rest, a quite impressive 27%, was commited by men of the Wehrmacht. True, in most occassions ordered by the residetnt SS cronies (the German command line in the occupied areas was extremely rigged and rather nebulous - the SS could practically intervene in everything) but it was Wehrmacht men nevertheless.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (bighairyman @ June 07 2004,22:23)]Now i'm sure that there are some Units in the German army that were fanatics of Nazism, and massacre villages and prisoners.

Of course, and not few. Specially the SS execution squads. Those filthy inhuman bastards.

Quote[/b] ]But i must say not ALL German soldiers were fighting for Nazism, some of them were fighting for their farms, their family, their country. Myabe they knew of all the killing, but what can they do about it. Remember those massacres were encouraged by the government, those soldiers killing prisoners weren't gonna be punished by the government.

Preciselly my point.

Quote[/b] ]Now the Allies weren't perfect angels During Operation Torch, the US invasion of North Africa, the US army was getting it's a$$ raped by the Germans in the one battle(forgot the name now), But after the battle, that were some massacres of German POWs by US soldiers. I'm sure at least some of you nows Dresden. The Allies bombed it with incendiary bombs, burning much of the historic buildings and killing civilians. there was no need, the War could have been won even if they didn't do it, and don't get me going with all the civilians killed by th allies.

Wasn't that on Kasserine Pass?

Dresda is just like Hamburg, a testemony to Allied War Crimes. Those obssessed Generals Harris and Curtis Le May "Destroying the morale of the German people." That only caused the German civilian populations to support even more the regime. The Volksturm wouldn't have been half as sucessefull if they had bombed only military targets. Besides, it was the German war industry that was necessary to destroy, not civilian buildings. We could expect that from those Nazi bastards, but the Allies shouldn't have fallen in that attitude.

Quote[/b] ]What we have to understand is that War is Hell, there is no good guys VS Bad guys. Only men trying to loyally serve their country and do the best they could to stay alive.

Very true words. Although I have to say, most of them, not all.