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Thread: How to use Horse Archers

  1. #61
    Member Member ah_dut's Avatar
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    early, ransoms i see i got a touch stuck which explains why i only had about 2 mill when the horde arrived, i put a master blacksmith in the eternal city (mod) so was pumping out, gold armour, gold attack JHI's to meet the horde head on, git about 35k per year at the mo, got a small trade war with the ventians, jihad spam should destroy them however

  2. #62
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    I also jihad spammed.

    note: they are better than actually building JHI costwise.

    I got 4 JHI in one of the markers and usually at least 1 per marker.

    JHI 725, jihad 500. you do the math. even if I disband everything else, I still come out ahead.

    I destroyed the horde thus but my upkeep cost due to so many jihads shot up from around 10k to something like 28k per year.

    I can do horde simulations now except it's all green hell horsies

  3. #63
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: How to use Horse Archers

    Updated the links for the new forum. Thank you frogbeastegg and TosaInu.
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  4. #64

    Default Re: How to use Horse Archers

    Of all the Turkish HA the SoP have to be the most unrealistic and impractical.

    They have a unit 20 and their stats are: 5 5 5 7.

    1) Am absolutly certain that the Turks did know how to fight in the saddle.

    2) A 7 armour is hardly practical in the desert and the planes is it?

    So to make them more realistic I modified the following:

    1) Change their numbers to 30.

    2) Change the stats from 5 5 5 7 to 7 6 5 5.

    3) To reflect the changes made I notched up their speed slightly below that of Turcoman Horses.

    You should see these modified SoP in action! Someone says that they aren't good as Boyars I say they are not only better but one of the best all-round cavalry in the game.

  5. #65
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: How to use Horse Archers

    Quote Originally Posted by KhaderKhan
    Of all the Turkish HA the SoP have to be the most unrealistic and impractical.
    I agree that this unit leaves something to be desired. They are quite good in their own right but handicapped by their small unit size and lack of speed (for a horse archer). As for the historical background, I think that Muslims in general are a bit underpowered. However, this guide deals with the vanilla game so I can't include you new stats.
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  6. #66
    Member Member Fwapper's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to use Horse Archers

    Dunno how much this helps, but I have a replay in which Turcomen HA flank and weaken the enemy, and Armenian Heavy cav surround isolated units all ending up in one big crush with my units piling into there's from all sides :)

    HA Flanking

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  7. #67
    Member Member Fwapper's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to use Horse Archers

    Sorry I don't know how to edit posts.

    Was going to say that the outcome of that battle was about 150 of my men dead - and 900 of them dead. So much for Turks always losing tonnes of men in battles.

    Self proclaimed loser of 'User Who Looks Most Like His Avatar' competition.

  8. #68
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: How to use Horse Archers

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fwapper
    Sorry I don't know how to edit posts.

    Was going to say that the outcome of that battle was about 150 of my men dead - and 900 of them dead. So much for Turks always losing tonnes of men in battles.
    Thank you. I can't view it here as I haven't got M:TW installed on this computer, but I will do so next week. Incidentally, the edit button will appear once you are promoted to full member.

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  9. #69

    Default Re: How to use Horse Archers

    The problem with horse archer guides is that they usually show a single enemy slow but strong unit surrounded by many horse archers to being pummeled to dust by arrows. This is not use, but abuse - i mean its to easy to use them in those circumstances. Now don;t get me wrong, beginners should start from the easy bits, however Horse Archer use should be explained and showcased in battles that the enemy has some sort of counter and also equal numerical strength, not just when he is tottaly hopeless.

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  10. #70
    Member Member The Punish-ed's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to use Horse Archers

    During my extensive trawling of this site, reading as much as I could, I did notice that the practicalities of Horse Archers are a little vague - I get lots of advice on stylistic approach, but surprisingly little in substance beyond "try and make em draw enemy out of position, surround and wear down, and avoid enemey foot archers". Good advice, yes, but (versus the AI at least) my little archer ponies rarely suceed in anything except for avoiding foot archers.

    I found that a chief advantage with them - rarely mentioned in the posts I read - was that due to their Height they make an excellent SECOND row archer - put them behind your archers or infantry two rows thick and long, and even on flat ground they provide extra bite. If they are behind other horses, it might be worth aiming for a higher ground advantage - but on flat ground they make an invaluable replacement for a small hill.

    Additionally, I found them my single most useful unit as Eastern Rome versus Spanish Jinettes - since the AI doesnt charge them in like it should - while Byzantine Lancers, Steppe Heavies and Alan Mercs COULD kill em, they'd suffer considerable and more valuable losses to do so.

    Charging them at enemy missile unites is actually also a useful tactic, since their skirmish behavoir means even if they'd likely win (like Jinettes) they often flee.

    As Eastern Rome, despite having Steppe Heavies and Byzantine Cavalry, I still get plenty of use out of HA; especially in deserts where there are fewer hills and their armour tolerates the heat with little problem.

    Ive recently been focussing on the XL mod, which I can highly recommend, but one of the things I noticed was that whenever I went an Empire or Kingdom that DIDNT have basic HA, I REALLY missed them. Especially as Scots - and perhapse to appreciate their usefulness it is worth going someone unable to use em, and see how often you catch yourself saying "horse Archer's would be REALLY good right now".

    I have - so far - not got the hang of fire, retreat, fire, retreat, or using 2 HA to isolate anything, possibly because I prefer to advance in one large legionic 'shape' but it does seem like the map isnt really big enough to use them the way they historically played. I did try to use them historically (ride in, do damage, retreat, repeat) - but the unfortunate commander of such hit and run raids - while serving the empire greatly - suffers many many bad traits that ultimately make the tactic unsustainable.

    Hope that isnt the useless ramblings of a noob - and that some of it might be of some use to someone, somewhere.

  11. #71

    Default Re: How to use Horse Archers

    Welcom to the org, enjoy your stay the punish-ed

    Horse archer use is best effectuated en-masse. Try using 4-6 of them in one block(arrayed in a single line) and supported by your main army (which should be a brief distance - not too close not too far behind). If your main army is too close you can't skirmish before the main melee - the enemy will engage you quickly. If its too far, the HAs are isolated and so have poorer morale and also tactical opportunities that the HA skirmishing potentially may open (like enemy army being fragmented and engaged at will with favorable match ups and piece meal) will go unused.

    As you approach, target with all horse archers enemy missiles one at a time - once a unit you target is below half size, target another and keep at it, until the enemy missiles are worn out to the point that firing back at you makes little to no difference (1/2 to 1/3 for all enemy missles is good enough). Then you can start picking on the really valuable targets: heavy cavalry and melee infantry. At this point the AI will react; he will try to attack you or feign to attack you in trying and stop losses. Your reaction should be tailored to the situation: if the AI move is partial ie one or two melee units you can set the particular HAs that are being chased to skirmish and leave the others where they are. This will draw in the enemy troops to their doom, by arrows and by the outnumbering penalties for morale. If the AI move involves their whole army, you should take all your HAs behind your own main melee line and engage the enemy with them. Sometimes (especially if you outnumber the AI enemy) the breaking up of their line in order to make an attack to the HAs creates an opportunity for you to take them piece meal at will with your own melee units or melee/heavy cav units. This is an invaluable use of the HA that makes the enemy formation break to avoid further missile losses.

    During the main melee, the HAs being safe and behind the line opens tremendous opportunities to you: they fire during the main melee wittling enemy morale, they can occasionally flank (when there is no enemy unit to counterflank them) and most impotrantly, they can start chasing every enemy unit that brakes liberating your own melee units to engage other melee pockets. There is nothing better to chase an elite melee unit that still has numbers but is fleeing with HAs making sure that they are on the way out (with lots of prisoners too).

    If the main melee is a draw and both armies are broken, then remaining HAs can make all the difference at the end stage that fatigue and so morale are low, even against melee units (not alone obviously in conjuction with your own melee troops remainder). This is especially so if they have arrows left. Now they can really reign suppreme and punish with impunity.

    In certain cases you cannot skirmish before the main melee, say when the AI has a melee heavy army composition and goes straight at your melee line. In those cases attempting to skirmish is pointless - just engage the enemy with your own melee line as best you can as fully as its possibly safe to do so (try to engage all their units if possible) - then the HAs can start harrassing by shooting, flanking and meleeing (even briefly) etc. If you play the melee right it should come to a draw at least (unless your melee troops are heavily outclassed in which case there is no hope anyway), and after the draw as explained previously the HAs can do a lot, since in this case they will have a lot of ammo left.

    In other occasions the HAs can go (as a block or maximum two blocks, never brake them more than that before the enemy routs/starts routing!) to pick up the enemy missiles during the main melee (that are now not protected by any melee troops). Do that though only if you are confident that the main melee will turn in your favor without much attention after engagement. In those instances, overpower the enemy missiles, engage them with one HA from the front and at the same time flank them from the rear if they are xbows or melee capable bows to ensure quick routs and maximum effect.

    Sometimes HAs are worth sacrificing or using as a screen (as all missile troops) ie to absorb enemy missile fire that is aiming for your melee troops as they advace to attack or as you defend, particularly if you are overpowered in terms of missile power. Say during a long battle it may come to the enemy having many weak missile troops and you few melee strong troops and even fewer missiles/HAs. In that case, use the trees/slopes if possible or if not able, present the enemy your missiles in loose formation (if possible, as sometimes that is not worth it because they may rout - loose formation drops morale) as a target. In this way you safeguard your melee troops that can beat the enemy when he decides to assault you.

    In a different scenario on the same theme, HAs can be used as the screen for an attack ie one or two units (maybe in loose formation) in front of your main melee line as it moves to assault the enemy melee line. The HAs can stay in front until just before the lines meet to absorb any enemy missile fire during the march to reach the enemy.

    Notice that as HAs i mean classic HA units and not medium cavalry with bows.
    Classic HAs in vanilla MTW are for example:
    Vanilla HA
    Mongol HA
    Turcomans
    Szekely

    Mameluk HAs, Byzantine Cavalry, Sipahis, Mounted Crossbows, Boyars, Steppe Heavies (even if they are named and classed in Froggbeastegg's guide as such) and the like are NOT to be used as HAs in the way i describe above for most of the time. They will fail to do so because they are way too armored and have lower speed (lack in ability to perform quick maneuvers/redeployments) and lower stamina (lack in ability to remain fresh if they do too much marching/running), and they will also be wasting their huge melee potential (and hefty upkeep that it entails!) by taking losses in missile duels and also wasting some of their good morale (that is imperative for meleeing) due to unwarranted fatigue. These units are supporting units to your melee line, a hybrid between a horse archer and melee infantry on horse. They are a different type of unit even if it resembles superficially the classic HA.

    By the way Steppe Heavies are probably the most overpowered unit after Billmen and Chivalric-men-at-arms. Not only they have good armor, relatively good speed for their class (and so relatively good stamina for their class) and melee stats, but they also cost almost nothing to maintain. Like many of the VI units (huscarles, karls etc) they are really "toy" units, to satisfy the want of SP players that always cry aloud for more units, and well outside any meaningful range (ie that every advantage should come at the price of a disadvantage in a unit or unit type). (Heavy) modding is required on them.

    Last edited by gollum; 02-20-2010 at 02:42. Reason: polish
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  12. #72

    Default Re: How to use Horse Archers

    Another consideration when using HA’s (and light cavalry) is the feint charge. Have your HA charge an enemy unit. The enemy unit will probably counter charge. Turn your HA around and have it run like crazy. The enemy unit will probably follow it. This trick can be used in various situations. 1: If the enemy main line is about to attack your main line, you can trick some enemy units into chasing your HAs, so only part of the enemy main force engages your main force. 2: If the enemy are on defense you can use a feint charge to lure an enemy unit off that hill which the enemy main line is probably parked. If you can draw one or more enemy units off the hill it may open up opportunities to shoot up a unit until it gets tired of it and returns to the main force, getting more arrows in its unshielded back as it goes, or you may get a chance to attack it with your main force, in which case the enemy can either let you slaughter it or send help, effectively abandoning its up hill advantage. 3: Suppose that one enemy unit is guarding another enemy unit, perhaps a heavy spear unit is preventing your cavalry from attacking an archer unit. If your HA can draw the heavy spear unit away, then your cavalry can sweep down on the poor archers. 4: You can also use a HA unit to get an enemy to attack at a disadvantage. Can’t catch an enemy cavalry unit with your spear unit? Use a feint charge to get it to chase your HAs who retreat right through your spearmen’s position. Maybe they will pursue until they contact your spears. If the cavalry won’t follow, then they might just sit there and let the HAs shoot them up. Or you can try again, but this time let your HAs actually complete their charge. They will fight terribly of course, but your spear unit will charge the pinned cavalry unit, and your HAs can get away by retreating right through your spearmen (if you have them on hold formation and keep clicking behind your spearmen until the HAs get away.) What do you know – you now have your HAs protected by a spear screen and ready to shoot those enemy cavalry, and chase them down when they rout.

    The main point of conventional tactics is to place and move your troops so you get the enemy at a disadvantage. The main point of horse archer tactics is to get the enemy to go where you want them to go – to put themselves at a disadvantage. Unfortunately, just shooting and running away will not always get the enemy to go where you want them to be. Feint charging provides a flexible tool that often will do just that.

    A few cautions:

    1: I am assuming that your HAs can approach the enemy pretty close without routing. Otherwise no feint charges. You may need to keep them close together so they are not outnumbered locally too much.

    2: I am assuming that you will exercise caution when feint charging cavalry that might chase you down. This is especially true if the cavalry unit is facing your HAs, as your guys need to turn around to escape, but they will be pointing at you already.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

  13. #73

    Default Re: How to use Horse Archers

    Good addition BB; the fake charge is indeed a good tactical weapon and can be performed with other cavalry units (preferably light as you say but occasoinally heavy too) as well.

    One way to make the feign practically work is to withdraw the unit ie press control+w. This will make the unit run off at the opposite direction you enetered the map. Consequently it does not work for all directions of (feigned) attack but only when you march straight to the enemy, and yet when it does work its powerfully effective. The good bit is that the unit can be recalled at will (i say this because the same trick can be done with routing the unit, but this carries a certain risk with it, namely that the unit may not listen to rallying calls and leave).

    Last edited by gollum; 02-20-2010 at 02:53.
    The Caravel Mod: a (very much) improvedvanilla MTW/VI v2.1 early campaign

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  14. #74

    Default Re: How to use Horse Archers

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    Good addition BB; the fake charge is indeed a good tactical weapon and can be performed with other cavalry units (preferably light as you say but occasoinally heavy too) as well.

    One way to make the feign practically work is to withdraw the unit ie press control+w. This will make the unit run off at the opposite direction you enetered the map. Consequently it does not work for all directions of (feigned) attack but only when you march straight to the enemy, and yet when it does work its powerfully effective. The good bit is that the unit can be recalled at will (i say this because the same trick can be done with routing the unit, but this carries a certain risk with it, namely that the unit may not listen to rallying calls and leave).

    1: Point taken. Heavy cavalry can fake charge too.

    2: I never thought of using the CTR + W in this context.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

  15. #75

    Default Re: How to use Horse Archers

    The main advantage of that is that it makes the unit make a complete 180 degree turn around - whether if you order the unit to turn around manually180 degrees you'll see that it takes more time as the unit will wait for its leader to turn before it follows him. With withdraw the unit just turns around on the spot, its considerably quicker.
    The Caravel Mod: a (very much) improvedvanilla MTW/VI v2.1 early campaign

    Please make sure you have the latest version (v3.3)
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