The Siskinies

[Saracen]

Let's try this again. I had a working game to begin with, no issues. I extracted these files and it won't boot now!!!! I don't have a clue what the Persian patch is. The only thing I have ever done is install the latest HTW, one patch one install. Just to test I removed the prod3 file and the first error message about parsing units, bulds went away. The Eqyptian error message is still there and the title of the box that appears is

columns_buildings_factions_associations with this message:

Unknown faction specified column 20 row 8 FN_Eqyptian

Where the hell is that being loaded???

[Saracen]

I threw out the prod3 file and all other files in the startpos except the 3 hellenic time periods and the vssver.scc It then worked???? Those same deleted files were always in the previous game but after inserting these new files there perhaps is a conflict between the existing files and the new ones. Where ever the building associations are could be the issue.

[Saracen]

Started out as the Lydians. The first inconsistancy deals with the Egyptian warship. Costs 670/2 turns to build, support is 22, stats are 2215
The Phoenician warship costs 220/2 turns to build support is 7 and stats are 2325. Unless I am missing something the much cheaper ship is much BETTER in its stats. Explain please? If what I see on the surface is correct the Egyptian ship should be like 5526. I am going to make that change right now because I don't want to screw up the game I am playing with an unbalanced navy. I still would like comments however as to this issue and what you think the number should be. By the way there are 5 numbers that represent the ships like 35527. What does the first number stand for?

[Ldvs]

It sounds like you've already reported that ~:p With such a high cost it should be as strong as a driere (4346), or at least a penticonter, which is 4343. Note that the egyptian warship has a better strengh than the greek's, and i don't know what the strengh refers to.

[Saracen]

I looked at the spreadsheet for all the ships and the 2 Egyptian ships seem out of line on a comparative basis. Also the build time for the Pheonecian seemed short. I did the following and by the way the first number is range. I increased the build time on the Phoenician to 2 turns. I made the early Egyptian warship 3,5,5,2,6 (cog) and the later one 3,6,7,3,8 (boom) They still are not the very best but now are competitive with the Greeks and still cost more.

[Ldvs]

You may know that the lighter greek warships were much better than their persian counterparts, so maybe it was done on purpose to reflect the superiority. Perhaps 3,4,4,2,6 for the ealy one (better than a penticonter and as good as a driere) and 3,5,5,3,8 for the later one would have been more realistic. Once again it's only my opinion.

By the way, if you wanted an economic challenge i don't think the Lydians are designed for you

[Saracen]

I am willing to make adjustments to the ships that make sense and was juts suggesting what I was doing until something "official" comes out. I am doing well with the Lydians though I got down close to zero in money. I built just enough to maintain the balance on the positive side. If what you are saying is the Lydians are not an economic challenge my reply would be why not? Every faction should be a challange. I wanted to see how the Greeks would do in building Hoplites without my "player" influence on their side of the map. I just started to see some in 114. I have kicked the Greeks off Asia Minor and my last battle faced two Hoplites in the troop mix. I suspect the Greek economics like the Lydians is still to strong. We shall see.

[komninos]

Hi,

In the ships everything is deliberate so please don’t change them. It took me 1 month just to get the spreadsheet the produces these values look OK.
The Egyptian war ship is there to reflect the all stile of naval warfare where ships these ships were slow and carried a large crew. They relayed on archer fire and boarding techniques to achieve victory. This made them unmanageable. The Greek and Phoenician ships relayed on there ram to break the enemy ships. They were fast maneuverable and could rake havoc in the enemy with a good well trained crew. These ships were cheaper from the old stile since they required less time and less material.
There are actually two Phoenician ships the one represents the standard Phoenician Trirem and the other is the one reported as the “super fast” Trirem. This was a light very fast ship that was faster than the Greek ones but was more vulnerable.

[Ldvs]

When talking about ships, each time i help an ally recover his province and my troops are sent by see, they demand a ransom after the battle... I can't remember if it happened in MTW either. I guess i shouldn't be that kind to them.

[Saracen]

While I understand what you are saying about the Egyptian ships I don't think their effectiveness is as poor as the numbers indicate. Also the Greek ships stayed pretty close to shore as they were truly not ocean going vessels and in any kind of a fight in "open water" they were much less effective as the the Eastern ships could use their strengths. No one in their right mind would buy them and use them for the amount of money they cost. What the Eastern empires lacked in quality they made up in quantity. If what you say is correct then they should be cheaper and there should be more of them.

I have to say the same thing about allies in a battle. The province goes to "I think" the largest army that came in if that side wins. Your army gets held hostage and has to pay to free itself. That is "nuts" and I don't recall if it is in the original game but when I see it happening and I am not sure if I am biggest I withdraw from the attack if I can. The other alternative is let him do all the fighting and take the losses and then jump him before the battle ends to win the province.

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

I have to say the same thing about allies in a battle. The province goes to "I think" the largest army that came in if that side wins. Your army gets held hostage and has to pay to free itself. That is "nuts" and I don't recall if it is in the original game but when I see it happening and I am not sure if I am biggest I withdraw from the attack if I can. The other alternative is let him do all the fighting and take the losses and then jump him before the battle ends to win the province.

This bug was also in MTW and is hardcoded sorry nothing to do with the HTW files and yes it is annoying.

LZoF

[Ldvs]

After playing as the Illirians for nearly 100 years, I agree with Saracen, the barbaric factions really need emmissaries.
Maybe you could lower the prerequisite for the court of law, although courts of law are definitely not designed for barbarians. Perhaps a building specific to them like "diplomatic school" or simply "school" could be a good idea too.

[Ldvs]

I'm still wondering, after playing your mod for a month, who gets the valour bonuses from the provincial estates. My first guess would go to emissaries, because of the prerequisites for the court of law, but I've never paid attention to them. If someone knows...

[komninos]

Yes, we know about it ... have to find a way with out needing to change the production req. of the units ... though I dought it :( ... at present and with the RTW just a moth away ... I have a fealing it is useless :(

I will find a way tough.

[Ldvs]

All eyes are on RTW I agree with you on that. If you think it's useless, don't bother with it I'll do it myself by lowering the prerequisites for my own game.

[komninos]

Hi all,

I have produced a new patch for the economy model we have developed ... not hearing any debates about it mast be OK. So all you need is the latest download from our site (The one with the Persian wars) and this patch to play all periods. If you have downloaded any of the older economy file with will overwrite them.

So have fun, the files are here

[Ldvs]

Your previous economic model was ok for me anyway. Could you make a short list of the changes because they aren't obvious ?

[JR-]

cheers, i am d/l'ing it all now.

presumably the install is: main .exe > economy patch > music if wanted?

[Ldvs]

Indeed, but you won't need to add the patch, LZoF just uploaded the newest version that includes the patch.
The music pack is great, just follow the instructions step by step and you'll face no problem.

[JR-]

ace. 77% completed.

just out of curiosity, how will i know if the main .exe contains the updated economic system? is it differentiated in any way?

[Ldvs]

You couldn't find out which was the new and which was the old one. I just know the new files are uploaded because LZoF said he uploaded them

[JR-]

my file version is 2.0.0.21, has that changed?

[Ldvs]

I swear you downloaded the latest version I'm about to spank you

[komninos]

Hi,

Not many changes ... you need a Palestra to build any hoplite unit and you need the goverment bouildings to get the special hoplite units (Agora or Estate depending on the calture) and max pruduction time is 4 for the Thebian Secred Band while 3 for all other special hoplites.

[Ldvs]

I was seeking some economic changes in vain, no wonder I haven't found any

[flip]

kom, in previous pack for Persian Wars there was this file:

PersianWar_faction_specific.txt


its missing in this last pack

[komninos]

Hi flip,

Well this file is in the last built of the HTW mod file this was just the new economic model with some refinements in unit building and production time. Buildings like Palestra were sapposed to give some bonus to the unit but since they are not used in unit production they did not. Now they are in so they do give there bonus to the units.

[Dyonisius]

Hi all,

I started playing as the the Persians in high, proclassical? And have a couple of questions=

1. what are the yearturns for classical, proclassical, Persian wars and geometric?
I tryed the search engine but didnt find anything.

2. The Large Egyptian warship is much more expensieve then the Phoenican warship while its stats seem to be lower.
The same happens between Lydian heavy infanterie and Kardakes, the latter being more expensieve.
So is there any reasan to get them, playing as the Persians?

Thanx

[Ldvs]

1)
SetEarlyPeriodStartDate:: 100
SetHighPeriodStartDate:: 250
SetLatePeriodStartDate:: 450
SetGameEndDate:: 550

Since that's impossible to count years backward in MTW they were compelled to use years AD, but it doesn't really matter

2) The egyptian ship issue was already discussed earlier. Quoted from Komninos

Hi,

In the ships everything is deliberate so please don’t change them. It took me 1 month just to get the spreadsheet the produces these values look OK.
The Egyptian war ship is there to reflect the all stile of naval warfare where ships these ships were slow and carried a large crew. They relayed on archer fire and boarding techniques to achieve victory. This made them unmanageable. The Greek and Phoenician ships relayed on there ram to break the enemy ships. They were fast maneuverable and could rake havoc in the enemy with a good well trained crew. These ships were cheaper from the old stile since they required less time and less material.
There are actually two Phoenician ships the one represents the standard Phoenician Trirem and the other is the one reported as the “super fast” Trirem. This was a light very fast ship that was faster than the Greek ones but was more vulnerable.

EDIT : DA = Dark Age = "early era"

[Ldvs]

Komninos, have you found a way to allow barbarians to train emissaries yet? or should I alter the files myself?