What the add-on really is

[Anssi Hakkinen]

A new honor day has been posted at the Community Site: it seems to be out of the normal Monday/Friday sequence, but who's complaining?

Like Our True Friend (C) he is, Mr. Richie Skinner has published EA/CA/DT's definitive take (= the gospel truth) on what the Mongol Invasion / Warlord Edition really is.

In North America, the game is published as Shôgun: Total War Warlord Edition, with both the original game and the Mongol Invasion expansion pack in one package. As for those who already own the main game, the expansion alone is available separately from EA.com: it's conceivable, if unconfirmed, that it will be free to those who have an original copy of STW.

In Europe and Asia, the Mongol Invasion will be published as a separate expansion pack that supposedly costs money.

Here is the source for all the disparity between the various press releases: it's Warlord Edition in America, but Mongol Invasion in Europe.

Read all about it at The Community Site

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"The right use of the sword is that it should subdue the barbarians while lying gleaming in its scabbard. If it leaves its sheath it cannot be said to be used rightly."
- Tokugawa Ieyasu: Legacy

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 12-21-2000).]

[Obake]

Well........now it all makes sense.


To those of you in Europe and Asia, congratulations. For those of us here in the US........WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!!!
So, unless we want to buy the game ALL OVER AGAIN, we have to purchase it directly through EA. And what Marketing genius came up with THAT idiotic idea? I have NEVER heard of something so STUPID and I believe that this type of distribution is absolutely UNPRECEDENTED in the industry!

What possible reason could there be for this type of distribution to occur. Why will we in the US have to wait 2 WEEKS after ordering and paying for our software before we actually get it (and that's being generous) let alone the additional cost of SHIPPING which we will end up paying for either up-front, or built into the cost of the Add-on.

I am absolutely OUTRAGED by this total lack of concern for the user base here in the States on the part of Electronic Arts.

If there is ANYONE from EA or the guys at CA/DT (whom I do not in anyway hold responsible for this) that could explain the logic behind this decision, I'm willing to listen and will even give you the benefit of the doubt. Absent that, I am a VERY un-happy camper!


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FearObake
I am the ghost of your fears.
Got a compliment or concern about a Fearful Ways member? Let us know about it HERE

[This message has been edited by Obake (edited 12-21-2000).]

hey there's also a place called Canada here in North America

oh, btw, guys, chill out...

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the great lord jd

[solypsist]

glad to see Obake curbing his enthusiasm...

I seriously doubt EA will give away anything for free, so forget that. And I'm pretty sure EA will get wise and ship to the stores, afetr all, not everyone who purchases STW has access to the internet (well, at least 2500000000 do, but that's probably only 1% of EA's recorded sales figures (if the same accountant who did the MP log-in number had anything to do with it.)

[Shiro]

Free? EA? Doesn't work together. Just doesn't mesh.

[Grilled Fubu]

Thanks for the news, Annsi.

[The Scourge]

Can we forget about the "please please" thread now Obake?

[Magyar Khan]

i dont want anything for free

do what u promised before and let me pay for new things coming up now

so the multiplayer campaign is for free
thebattle eidtor is 5 dollar
mongol units and so on 15 dollar
some small AI stuff is for free
package and so on 5 dollar

let me buy it for $19.99.... that is fair, as an add on

[Obake]

Guys, this isn't about whether or not the add-on is free! I'm more than willing to pay for the software. What got me so pissed off was the way Ea chose to distribute it in North America (for JayDee's benefit). If they do pull their act together and ship it to the stores then I have no problem, but quite frankly I've seen and heard about enough EA screw-ups (outside of Shogun) that I am VERY reluctant to deal with them directly!

Scourge, my point regarding the People Poease thread has been cleared up by what was posted at the TotalWar.com site so from that perspective...yes.

However, this still doesn't change the point of my previous post which is that it appears that EA is screwing with the North American customer base (intentional or not) with it's distribution plans for the add-on!

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FearObake
I am the ghost of your fears.
Got a compliment or concern about a Fearful Ways member? Let us know about it HERE

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Now now, Obake-sama, calm down a bit there.

I may not be the right person to say this, as I'm European after all, but why is it so bad to deal with EA? After all, they get a big slice of the expansion's price whether or not they ship it to retailers. The end-user pays for the shipping in any case, and it's quite likely the EA price will still be significantly lower than what it would be if the retailer had to get his/her share, too.

You have to wait for it. Of course. But how's that any different from waiting for it to appear in game stores? Or waiting for it to be transported over an ocean or two? I can't think of a single reason why it would be available at retailers any faster than it's available at EA.com.

And there are precedents, most certainly. Someone mentioned one right here on this forum, I can't recall what it was, but this has very definitely been done before.

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"The right use of the sword is that it should subdue the barbarians while lying gleaming in its scabbard. If it leaves its sheath it cannot be said to be used rightly."
- Tokugawa Ieyasu: Legacy

[Ii Naomasa]

Anssi-san, I can fully understand Obake-san's frustration with this news. I have not directly ordered anything from EA in a few years, so perhaps they have improved, but it's still not an appealing thought.

Oddly enough, you can often find games in stores here for less than what the companies offer for them direct, and that's before you consider postage and handling. Software is an easy way for all our competing software/electronic stores to lure people into their store, so there's often a sale on the latest releases. Most Americans who live in or around the larger cities will have this benefit, solely from the number of stores trying to get your attention. In addition, (again, depending on your location) most of the specialized software stores have the product up on the shelves on the official release date. Whenever I have ordered something yet-to-be-released via mail, it usually ships only a day to two before that, at best. As it is usually shipped via ground, chances are good I'll get it a few days to a week after the stores do (to their credit, I do remember once when Origin (and, in fact, EA MAY have been the distibutor at the time) ate the costs and shipped the Wing Commander III collector's edition via overnight to make up for the delays). If you couple that with the delays inherent in anyone who doesn't have/want to have credit cards (mailing check/MO, waiting for the former to clear, etc), you're looking at two to three weeks after the release.

Now, you may think,"So, what's the big deal? Is two weeks going to kill you?" Not a chance, but it all breaks down to convenience. Basically,IF EA makes the add-on only mail order, they've basically snubbed the existing American Shogun customers (just in case the manual didn't let us know where we rate ) by making us either shell out additional money for the convenience of the Warlord edition or having to go through the hassel of mail-ordering.

Now, to play devil's advocate, I can also understand EA's decision. Software shelf real estate is always at a premium and it's difficult (and potentially expensive) for companies to have stores display multiple versions of the same product, unless it's a very hot seller (like Half-life or Rollercoaster Tycoon). A moderate-to-good seller like Shogun probably won't have the drawing power like the aforementioned games to sit on the shelves next to an expansion pack. By just releasing a 'Warlord Edition', EA puts out a single 'brand new product' and guarantees that anyone wanting to play it has a fully working copy...and if those who shelled out thirty to forty dollars on the original do so again, that doesn't hurt EA in their eyes.

And I've rambled on far too long on this topic....

[johnmcd]

Sim City 3000 World Edition is a good example of a rip off rerelease if anyone still cares.

Frankly I’m not in the least surprised, it has been an EA sales model for a long time to release slightly patched software as a new product. I don’t know about their North American sports products, but in the UK you can expect to see a couple of near indistinguishable football games every year, always at full price, always big sellers. I think it is more worrying that they haven’t given it a number as part of establishing a long running franchise. ‘Shogun: 2001’ or ‘Shogun: The Road to War’ or somesuch would be a good indicator that they intended to keep the concept running for years, as it is maybe these two are all we’ll get. Expect the diplomacy model to be fleshed out over the next four or five years and nine or ten releases to something a company that respected their customers would do as a patch…

I have never bought any EA game except Shogun on principal, and things like this remind me why. I won’t be buying another either. Also the fact that their games normally suck makes it an easy principal to afford.

[This message has been edited by johnmcd (edited 12-22-2000).]

[Dark Phoenix]

I think this shows us the reason that the news sites got the information that they did is that they are all US sites (correct me if I am wrong) why they were calling it Warlords editon and not an add-on was because that is all that it is going to be released there.

[Obake]

Anssi,

Quote I understand criticism that concerns the issue at hand, such as what Obake posted in the other thread (although he went a bit overboard with is initial message as well)....Discussion about the announcement (as opposed to its wording) should be continued in the "What the expansion pack really is" thread, or somewhere else.[/QUOTE]

I won't argue with you that my reply was uncharacteristic of my general tenor when posting. I may also have gone a bit overboard. However, at the time I felt that I needed to be very blunt with my feelings about EA's intentions and I still feel that way.

There are times when being politically correct and being reserved are no longer appropriate and this was one of those occasions from my perspective. Others may and have disagreed with me, but that is their decision to make and I respect them for that.

Much of what Naomasa-san explains is correct. Electronic Arts is one of the worst run gaming companies in the industry. In part this is due to their size and business practices, but primarily it is due to their complete lack of desire to focus on servicing their customer.

I have heard horror stories from many people who have ordered directly from EA, been promised the software by a certain date and then had to wait months beyond that date before receiving their software.

I myself have an ongoing issue with EA's technical support regarding Shogun. They were completely unresponsive and of no help at all. I also know for a fact that even the developers have a hard time getting answers from EA!

My personal belief (based on 10 years in software sales and marketing) is that the product marketing team at EA made the decision to use this approach in North America with the belief that customers would rather purchase the Warlord Edition than order the Add-on through the mail, or over the Internet resulting in increased profits for Electronic Arts.

Until someone proves otherwise, that's my story and I'm sticking with it!

Now I've said my piece and I am done with this topic.

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FearObake
I am the ghost of your fears.
Got a compliment or concern about a Fearful Ways member? Let us know about it HERE

[BanzaiZAP]

I don't usually post in rant sessions, but this one hits close to home. I'm on Obake's side, just not as verbally. Throughout most of this, I've had a great deal of respect for the CA developers, and I greatly appreciate Richie and the DT group, but EA has always shown big-company-itis, in that they focus on squeezing the most pennies out of a concept, rather than making sure things are done in a way that's best for their audience. As someone way out on the fringe of North America, and being someone who dislikes credit cards, it's going to be at LEAST three weeks before I can get my hands on it. Anyone like me who does any multiplayer at all, will therefore be completely left out in the cold. And if it does indeed take that long to get it, then they could be dropped from the honor-ranking! But gee, that's only a couple of hundred players. Who cares if they piss a few people off, as long as they can milk a bit more out of the others?

I had to modify this message, because I mentioned software piracy, which is a forbidden subject. Being a former games developer, I have a personal disgust about it. The fact that I was mentioning it shows how much horror and disgust this move gave me.

Enough. I'm going back to a tactical discussion.

-- B)

[This message has been edited by BanzaiZAP (edited 12-22-2000).]

[Puzz3D]

Essentially, what this mail order expansion means in the US is that you won't be able to upgrade Shogun for $18 or so on sale, but will probably pay more like $30 mail order. We'll probably be able to buy the full Warlords game for $30 on special.

It seems to me that making the expansion available by mail order is actually a concession on EA's part. I don't think they usually do this, and instead keep rereleasing full versions as others here have pointed out. For people that have held off buying the game, it actually works out better to have the Warlords version instead of buying the original game and then the expansion.

Shogun has actually saved me money because it's so good that I haven't purchased another computer game in the last six months which is unusual for me.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan takiyama ~~~

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Obake-sama, I'm sorry about that parentheses comment (they're my general all-around vice ). The reference I made to your post was limited, in the post as well as in my mind, to exactly what it said. I thought (and you suspected it as well) that you had gone "a bit overboard" with that first reaction message. But the rest of my post was directed at Metha, not you; we're here discussing the content, rather than the wording, of the Shôgun's announcement, in the civilized and insightful way I've come to expect from the Sword Dojo's patrons, and that is exactly what everyone wants. This is what we should be doing!

But, to continue the discussion:
You've presented the North American perspective very convincingly, and I agree - it would be better if EA had released the expansion normally, as they plan to do in Europe and Asia. I kind of understand what motivated them to publish this Warlord Edition thing, and their motivations aren't likely to be as quite heinous as what Obake-sama believes them to be, but still, they're in this to make money, and they intend to take it from us.

Maybe EA could be swayed to publish the Mongol Invasion expansion in retail stores in Northern America too (some kind of petition, perhaps?), but I really don't think so. All I can do is sympathise, and advise you to take a positive attitude to this: at least you're getting the expansion pack separately rather than paying for the whole game again. And they even intend to publish a patch that allows multiplay between computers running and not running WE for use during the transitional period, so Banzai-san's fears won't be realized either.

Indeed, on the bright side: we're getting a great addition to a great game! That's way more than what I've come to expect from some companies: I'm boycotting Sierra for the rest of my life as a result of them cancelling their Babylon 5 title...

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"The right use of the sword is that it should subdue the barbarians while lying gleaming in its scabbard. If it leaves its sheath it cannot be said to be used rightly."
- Tokugawa Ieyasu: Legacy

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 12-22-2000).]

[Toranaga_Sama]

>>In North America, the game is published as Shôgun: Total War Warlord Edition, with both the original game and the Mongol Invasion expansion pack in one package. As for those who already own the main game, the expansion alone is available separately from EA.com: it's conceivable, if unconfirmed, that it will be free to those who have an original copy of STW.>In Europe and Asia, the Mongol Invasion will be published as a separate expansion pack that supposedly costs money.

[Dark Phoenix]

I ampretty sure that Richie posted that the Warlords Edition is only available in North America.

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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

[Rob]

Well I'm in Europe and I have a cable modem....

I don't think you would actually download it (the expansion pack that is) off the EA website - it would probably just be online ordering, similar to Amazon.com. So you would have a boxed copy delivered to your house.

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MizuRob Hojo
Honour to clan Takiyama

[Toranaga_Sama]

Rob, I'm curious how are you charged for cable?

In the US its roughly $30-50 for xdsl/cable, with, again roughly, 640-1.5 kbps speeds; ulimited access and downloads.

In any event, you gotta admit, the costs for d/l for those outside North America is EXORBITANT and that the vast majority of users everywhere are still on a dial-up.

Consequently, EA will have grossly misjudged the American market to, charge for Mongol Invasion AND at the same time NOT distribute it at local stores, but to ONLY have online ordering with 2-10 day delivery.

As, Obake, states this would be UNPRECEDENTED!! and will piss people off. Not likely.

The only sensical alternative to the scenario in my previous post, would be for EA to charge for MI at the EA site AND have the option to d/l and/or have physical delivery as well. Hmmm....

[Rob]

It is very true to say that 'net access is a lot cheaper in the US than in Europe. I read somewhere that European prices are two years behind those in the US. The fact that European telecoms is dominated by former state-owned monopoly telcos (British Telecom, Deutsche Telekom etc.) doesn't help either.

I don't think the costs are so exorbitant that people can't afford to log on to the EA website and enter a product order though

I don't know why EA have chosen to use different models for selling the game in different parts of the world; I'm sure they have their reasons. The game will probably be cheaper in the US too, so it evens out in the end

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MizuRob Hojo
Honour to clan Takiyama

[Toranaga_Sama]

Well, the future will tell.

BTW, these have been my first post in the "new" Dojo. Is it possible to restore my message count? I detest Ronin! ;-)

[Rob]

When the Dojo re-opened, those who had posted to the old forums were given either 100 or 200 posts, in recognition of their previous posts.

However, changing the post count can only be done via FTP access to the site, which I don't have, so you will have to wait until Kurando comes back

You will have to live with being Ronin for a little while longer - though if you make 20 posts you get promoted to Ashigaru!

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MizuRob Hojo
Honour to clan Takiyama

[johnmcd]

Umm, I'm in Europe too and I have enjoyed toll free dial up and cable access for over year...

I don't know if there is a major population centre in the UK that can't get broadband of some sort now and unmetered dial up access is available to almost everyone from £5-£10 a month.

I pay £30 a month for cable access, that includes a normal telephone line bundled in (seperate selling price £8 a month) or $50.

[Dark Phoenix]

Well in Australia it is very hard to get cable or anything better than dial up. To get cable firstly you have to live near the cable which a lot of people dont. Then it costs $300 Australian for a 18 or 24 month contract and the cost per month is around $90 Australian.

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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon