Empires: Total War

[Zanderpants]

Empires: Total War
An add-on to Medival:Total War.



Concept
Hello all,
I'm looking to put together a mod that would be almost a precursor to the original M:TW campaign. It would cover the time between the beginnings of the Roman empire, roughly 400 BC, through the dark ages, ending at roughly 1,000 AD, right before the original campaign begins. I'm looking to divide the campaign into four periods, each period, being a seperate campaign that the player would play in succession.


The Factions
1st period (400 BC-100BC)
The Romans (Self explanatory)
The Etruscans (Roman-ish)
The Macedonians (Greek)
The Thebans (Greek)
The Spartans (Greek)
The Persians (Um, Persian?)
The Skythians (Steppe nomadic)
The Boii (Celtic)
The Carthaginians (Greek)
The Gallii (Celtic)
The Thracians (Greco-Celtic)
The Illirians (Greco-Celtic)
The Siracusians (Greek)
The Helvetii (Celtic)
The Bastuli (Celtic/Iberian)
The Bastitani (Celtic/Iberian)
The Veneti (Romano-Celtic)
The Vindelici (Germano-Celtic)
The Samnites (Romano-Etruscan)
The Senones (Powerful, northern Italian tribe of Celts)
The Gallaeci (Celtic)
The Volcae (Germano-Celtic)
The Caledones (Celtic)
The Regni (Celtic)
The Aedui (Celtic)
The Allobroges (Celtic)


2nd Period (100BC-300AD)
The Romans
The Gauls
The Egyptians
The Brigantes (Britons)
The Bulgars
The Allemands
The Boii
The Parthians
The Khazars
The Dacians
The Aulerci
The Nitiobroges
The Vandals


3rd Period (300AD-500AD)
The Romans
The Byzantines
The Visigoths
The Ostrogoths
The Arabs
The Sassanids
The Huns
The Saxons
The Angles
The Jutes
The Romano-Britons
The Vandals
The Picts
The Bulgars


4th Period (500AD-1,000AD)
The Byzantines
The Anglo-Saxons
The Britons
The Arabs
The Visigoths
The Ostrogoths
The Vandals
The Picts
The Jutes
The Franks
The Bulgars
The Lombards

That should be about it, if anyone has any suggestions for factions, or sees any problems witht the current ones, please post it, opinions on this mod are greatly appreciated


The Units
There is no finalized list of units for the factions, just know that I will be making no new units because I'm a novice at creating units from scratch. Expect to see a ton of modified units from the original game, plus I've gotten permission from the amazingly talented Gerousia, makers of Hellenic: Total War, to use their units as needed. I'm also in the process of getting permission from other modders to use their units, so stay tuned for more on that.

The Campaign Map
The campaign map will be a slighty altered version of the original M:TW campaign map. Expect to see a few new provences though.

That's about it for now, updates'll be coming soon.
Please post your thoughts
Any help with history would be greatly appreciated, I know a a lot about these periods, but I am not an expert.
I need someone who can alter the campaign map.

[MiniKiller]

This mod would be sick as hell and thats a good thing

Oh and as far as adding other factions, dude do it, I would much rather see lots more minor minor factions then a bunch of rebels.

[Zanderpants]

Yeah, I was planning on doing that because in the early parts of the game the campmap would have huge stretches of non-cohesive rebels. Plan on getting as many celtic tribes as I can do, which would cover most of Western Europe.

Does anyone know what was going on in Scandanavia in the 1st period? 400BC-100BC

[Eastside Character]

You cant make a mod starting BC with the counter there is. It cant go BC cause thatd be -(some number here)AD, and that cant be done as far as I know.

Another problem is a number of factions you have there. Youd probably have to make several expansion games to make this whole mod the way you want. Thats for the simple reason a game can have only 40 factions and a single campaign 32.

But sure, if you can manage and complete this mod, thatd be something amazing

Regards,
EC

[Zanderpants]

Yeah, I knew about the BC thing as well as the factions. I was planning on making four different campaigns that you'd play in succession, followed by the MTW campaign.

Thanks though. I'm glad people like the idea.

[Eastside Character]

I think you should have the Egyptians in 1st period too.

Regards,
EC

[MiniKiller]

I cant really contribute much to helping u in this mod but I would be glad to help you beta test it, u know let ya know about bugs and how factions fare and the like, let me know.

[Zanderpants]

I'd wanted to put the Egyptians in the first period, for all of the cool Egyptian units that could be made, but alas, the Egyptians during the first period weren't a faction, they were part of the Persian Empire.

Sure M-K, I'll take up to 13 testers for the first period which'll hopefully be out within the next month and a half. Right now the biggest thing that I need to do, which I'm unfamiliar with, is altering the campaign map to make more Greek provinces. I'm learning though, so once that's done, then it'll just be creating the new factions, altering the units, setting the factions up and the first version'll be done. The first version being the first period that is.

Good news, I got permission from Maximus Decimus Meridius to use his Roman units, as well as others in the mod. In addition, I've gotten permission from The Blind King of Bohemia to use his units from BKB super. So right now I'm putting together unit-lists. Expect some later today.

[dessa14]

the persians never captured the oasis of ????
thank, dessa

[Zanderpants]

Got me, but I don't think that making an Egypt, held by Persia, with an Egyptian oasis in the middle would work too well.

The Persians will have access to some Egyptian units however.

[MiniKiller]

Any early shots yet or is this all still pre-production.

I love to see screenies as mod's go.

[dessa14]

set the mod 50-100 years earlier, and you can include egypt.
thanks, dessa

[maximus decimus meridius]

Zanderpants.

It seems to me that you can have only three periods in MTW-TW ...... or not?

This should be hardcoded ....

[Zanderpants]

NOOOOOO I was putting together the unit list and was almost done. Then the computer decides not to work
Unit lists tomorrow I'm afraid.......

[Zanderpants]

That is true Maximus, so, I'm putting together four different campaigns to be played in succession.

[AlexPeters]

Zitat[/b] (Zanderpants @ Juni 28 2004,13:20)]./. the BC thing ./.

You could focus on rome and use the date of founding as year zero (753 BC, AD means then ab urbe condita).
The first campaign could be called The rise of rome or something like that.
Some factions to add:

Italians tribes:
Samnites (italian tribe, several wars against rome in 343 BC, 326 BC, 298 BC)
Volsci (italian mountain tribe, allied with the samnites and the hernici)
Hernici (italian mountain tribe, allied with the samnites and the volsci)
Umbri (italian tribe, allied with the samnites)
Sabini (another italian tribe, known from the legends of early rome)
Apuli, Lucani, Frentani, Vestini, Aequi, Hirpini, Marsi, Paeligni, Aurunci, Daunii, Peucetii, Falisci (to small to be usable)

Greek and similar:
Greek (as a synonym for the different greek settlements all over the mediterranean that helped each other in war times, for example Phyrrus of Epirus wars in italy)
Sicilians (eastern part of sizilia, originally phoenicians mixed with greeks, but worth a faction because of their wars against carthage, athens and rome, remembering Archimedes ?)

Celtic tribes:
Insubri (northern italy, defeated 200 BC)
Celtiberi (spain)
Bastuli (grenada, defeated by the carthagians)
Bastetani (eastern part of cordoba, defeated by the carthagians)
Averni (in the north of todays provence, france)
Helvetii (switzerland)
Veneti (venice area)
Sequani (river rhine, french-german border area)
Taurisci and Vindelici (culture of Hallstatt, bavaria - bohemia)

Others:
Numidians (todays eastern algeria, african tribe that fought with and against rome, known for their light cavalry)
Mauri (todays lybia, tribesman, allied with rome in the punic wars)
Scythae (if you include the black sea area, northern coastline)
Germani (assorted nearly onknown minor tribes, could be rebels)

Enough of it, if you need more of them or some descriptions...

Alex

[maximus decimus meridius]

Zanderpants.

The Khazars appeared in the western steppes around 650/680AD.
The Bulgars appeared in Balkans/moldavia/ukraine around 550ad.

Besides the Bulgars in the earlier period were part of the Hun tribes (probably they spoke an hunnish-turk language).

[Al Khalifah]

I like the sound of this mod majorly, the game engine would still work really well with the style of armies and nations of the time. The map could do with quite a bit of chopping, it'd need a lot more Mediterranean provinces but perhaps the north would be less important at this period.

I was working on Age of Empies (in MTW) mod a while ago, so I'd think the two would cross over in areas... if you need any info

[Zanderpants]

Ahh, thanks Maximus, that area during this period is far from my area of expertise. That'll be changed.

Alrighty, in the 1st period, considering how there can be many more factions, I'll be adding these as well due to the suggestions from Alex Peters. Any descriptions on the Celtic factions would be very much appreciated. Means I can get to making the units sooner. Thanks Alex

The Siracusians (Greek)
The Helvetii (Celtic)
The Bastuli (Celtic/Iberian)
The Bastitani (Celtic/Iberian)
The Veneti (Romano-Celtic)
The Vindelici (Germano-Celtic)
The Samnites (Romano-Etruscan)
The Senones (Powerful, northern Italian tribe of Celts)
The Gallaeci (Celtic)
The Volcae (Germano-Celtic)
The Caledones (Celtic)
The Regni (Celtic)
The Aedui (Celtic)
The Allobroges (Celtic)

All of these factions will be playable. I might add some unplayble factions, undecided yet. Depends on how things go along.

Thanks Al Kalifah. How far did you progess in that AOE mod? Any collaboration would be good. I think that the map chopping will take the longest for me to complete because I have no idea how to do it.
Is there anybody available who'd like to make new provinces?

[MiniKiller]

Make em all playable man lol the ones unplayable we'll just make playable in the files anywho.

[Zanderpants]

Units

c=complete, excluding descriptions
i=incomplete
ip=in progress

The Romans
The Roman units will take longer than usual to build, but their units, in general, are of a higer quality than the other factions surrounding them.

Triarii c
Velites c
Hastati c
Equites (Light/medium cavalry) c
Auxilia (Spearmen with large shields; armed with javelins) c
Archers c
Slingers c
Triremes c
Biremes c
Ballistae c
Battering rams c


The Etruscans
The Etruscan units are a cross between Greek units and Roman units. They are very good, middle of the road units.

Etruscan Infantry i
Etruscan Swordsmen i
Light Chariots c
Slingers c
Archers c
Etruscan Cavalry i
Etruscan Heavy Infantry i
Ballistae c
Battering Rams c
Biremes c
Triremes c



The Macedonians
The Macedonians have a very well balanced force to choose from. They have the best units for countering cavalry of any sort, as well as very fine cavalry of their own.

Enomotia Hopliton c
Macedonian Enomotia Hopliton c
Companion Cavalry c
Macedonian Light cavalry c
Macedonian Hippies c
Hypaspists c
Archers c
Peltasts c
Slingers c
Ballistae c
Battering Rams c
Triremes c
Biremes c


The Thebans
The Thebans have a nice balance of units to choose from. On one hand, they have very heavy infantry in the form of the Sacred Band, but at the same time, they have a nice selection of skirmishers as well.

Enomotia Hopliton c
Theban Sacred Band c
Enomotia Ekdromon c
Hippies c
Hippies Akondistes c
Archers c
Peltasts c
Slingers c
Ballistae c
Battering Rams c
Triremes c
Biremes c


The Spartans
The Spartans are the juggernaut of the Greek world, and it shows. Their Hoplites are faster than most heavy infantry when they have to be. (i.e. Their walking speed is slower than usual, but their charge and run is faster than most heavy infantry) The Spartan commander can send their hoplites into battle, practically assured of success. They do lack in other areas though, as they are technophobes.

Spartan Enomotia Hopliton c
Enomotia Hopliton c
Skirites c
Messenian Slaves c
Hippies c
Slingers c
Battering Rams c
Ballistae c
Biremes c


The Persians
The Persians have vast stretches of land to fund their equally massive armies. However, this abundance in men comes at a cost. Most Persian units have horrendous morale, couples with poor equipment. The greatest problem with the Persian army is the lack of dependable heavy infantry.

Immortals c
Persian Royal Cavalry c
Persian Horse Archers c
Kardakes c
Takabaras c
Sparabaras c
Indian Elephants c
Persian Archers c
Chariot Archers c
Heavy Chariots c
Egyptian Cameleers c
Egyptian Camel Archers c
Nubian Spearmen c
Ballistae c
Battering Rams c
Egyptian Warships c
Heavy Egyptian Warships c


The Skythians
The ferocious Skythians have little selection when it comes to units, but their units come skilled, effective, and in large numbers. Skythian Cavalry is some of the best in the world.

Skythian Heavy Cavalry c
Skythian Light Cavalry c
Skythian Warband c
Skythian Archers c
Skythian Axemen c
Battering Rams c
Warships c


The Boii
The Boii are a Celtic tribe hailing from North-Eastern Italy. Like the Skythians, they have little selection when it comes to units. However, they get their units very soon into the game, and their units all have great morale, and large numbers. They tend to shun armor however, and generally lack cohesion.

Boii Light Chariots c
Boii Warband c
Boii Archers i
Boii Warriors c
Boii Cavalry i
Battering Rams c
Warships c


The Carthaginians
The Carthaginian forces have a very good selection of units at their disposal. Many of thei units take a long time to build and are expensive to maintain. However, the cost pays off as their Armoured African War Elephants, Heavy Infantry and Heavy Cavalry are very effective. To supplement the long build times and high cost of Carthaginian units, they will have a special building to attract large numbers of mercenaries.

Carthaginian Heavy Infantry ip
Carthaginian Slingers c
African Warriors c
African Tribesmen c
Carthaginian Heavy Cavalry ip
Carthaginian Light Cavalry ip
African War Elephants c
Armoured African War Elephants i
Carthaginian Infantry i
Carthaginian Skirmishers c
Ballistae c
Battering Rams c
Triremes c
Biremes c

Look for more lists tomorrow. Pics coming hopefully within the next week.

[Al Khalifah]

Quote[/b] ]Thanks Al Kalifah. How far did you progess in that AOE mod? Any collaboration would be good.

I completed all units from AOE (including the ones that eventually get outdated) but I only used to play custom battles, I never took it to campaign level because a lot of the civs in AOE existed at very different times and different strengths, so picking a start point would've been hard. - I just setup the Europe camp map so that the custom games would work and made each faction only able to build what it could in AOE.

I made a few faction specific units but I thought they damaged the idea which was to be 3D AOE. I also couldn't make chariots in any form, I don't know if anyone has managed this yet. If they have... please tell me how so I can maybe finish my mod The elephant archers used to be incredible, I think I overpowered them.

[Zanderpants]

Hmm, The Bronze age swordsmen would be good to have, among others. Do you have any pics of the units you made in action? Yeah, this guy named Flip made chariots, as well as battering rams, and elephants. All of his stuff is really amazing. It's got it's own forum at the Org, just go the the engineers guild and it'll say HTW at the bottom of the list.

[AlexPeters]

Assorted pictures:
> Samnite with sword,> Samnitian cavalry (later used by the romans),> another one with a spear (200 BC),> another one (about 400 BC)
> Etruscan (~ 2nd rank)
> Celtic noble (similar for all tribes)
> Celtic cavalry (390 BC)
> Celtic warrior (iberia), 100 BC
> and another one from iberia, > an iberian standard bearer
> Celtic headhunter (probably early gaul, because of the helmet)
> Gaul wars (50 BC)
> A nude one (250 BC)
> Another one from the gaul wars
> Celtic chieftain (about 300 BC)
> Another one (about 1000 BC,style is called Villanova, i think they used such armor until 300 BC)
> chieftain of the senones (about 300 BC)
> a nacked one attacking (about 150 BC)
> another Villanova warrior (probably etruscan)
> germanic warrior (about 0)
> another germanic (200 AD)
> another celtic warrior (300 BC)
> Celtic chariot (the had light ones only)
> Carthagian standard bearer
> another celtic warrior from spain (300 BC)
> a iberoceltic warrior from hannibals army
> Lombaridian (about 7c BC)
> Venetian celt
> germanic (suebian) warrior (100 AD)
> nubian tribesman (3c BC)
> Scythian king (4c BC)
> gaul (look at those trousers)
> celtic (Hallstadt period ~ 6c BC)
> celtic (La Tene period, 4c BC)
> Lusitanian chieftain (Portugal, 150 BC)
> Lusitanian warrior
> another one with a spear
You should include the Numidians, at least as regional troops, they formed the best known light cavalry and won many wars (> An article about the numidians, > the famous numidian cavalry, > other numidian troops)
> Ancient britons, > Picts, > Visigoths
> Carthagian spanish infantry, > Carthagians African Infantry, > Celtic Cavalry, > War elephants

The Celtic tribes are in the La Tene/late Hallstadt period at the beginning of your mod. They should be armed similar, normal warrior naked with shield and spear (throwing 1 missile only, melee with axe and sword). Nobles are the only armoured units. Small troops of cavalry, only nobles i think.
Headhunting is normal to absorbe the enemies strength that makes the units very undisciplined.
The celtic cavalry is very light but not too fast, low attack values (no stirrups), i think chariots (all light only) are for transportation only, no battle value.

I couldn't find a picture of the Volsci yet, the wear helmet (a really funny one, like a hat with a big brim), a round breastplate and two throwing spears, no shield, in melee they used a short sword. I don't think they had cavalry (mountain tribe).

The Samnites had a very good and disciplined army, mostly light and fast troops and a lot of light cavalry. Their helmets are decorated with two feathers and their armor is often designed with three buckles.

The Etruscans use the greek phalanx. They've got 6 different ranks of soldiers, 1st rank nobles armoured like normal greek hoplites, 2nd rank some armoured, 3rd and 4th rank unarmored hoplites with squrae shields, 5th rank psiloi with 2 throwing spears and square shields and the last rank is a mob, no specific weapons.
I don't think they had much cavalry.

Alex

[Zanderpants]

Woah, excellent info Alex. I was planning on having the Numidians being either mercenary troops, or only trainable in North Africa. As for the Celts, great pics, I was only going to have armoured Cavalry in small units, because they are the nobility. All other Celtic units will only have cloth armour in this period. The Boii warband will be armed with spears and shields; little better than militia, and the Boii warriors would be armed with swords or axes and carry a shield. The Boii cavalry, Mounted nobles esentially, will be armed with decent armour (nothing compared to hoplites), swords and shields. As for the chariots, they did use them across Gaul and Britannia, but they were reserved for chieftans, so whether that will be included or not is undecided right now.
Check out this site, it's what I've been using a lot. It's www.dbaol.com/armies . I was going to have the Etruscans have a cross between samnite and greek armor, so in function, they'll be very much like Hoplites, just without the super-heavy armor. Their swordsmen will be armored similarly, but with swords and shields.

As for cavalry, just for people reading these posts to take note. At this time, there was no stirrup, so charging with a spear or lance would be a bad idea considering how you'd fly off of the horse. So when I say heavy cavalry, don't expect Gothic Knights. Cavalry in this mod will probably be used best for attacking broken or breaking troops, attacking ranged units, and flanking engaged units.

Thanks Alex,
Z

[Zanderpants]

Alex,
I just got this excellent book on the Celts today, The Celtic World by Barry Cunliffe. It has the names of the major Celtic tribes in Europe, as well as city names, etc. It says that at this time, the Celts actually did have a good cavalry force. Definetly the best in Western Europe at the time, so I think that there'll be mounted nobles, and horsemen, plus the other Celtic units. As for chariots, you were right, in mainland europe at this time, they weren't used, so chariots will only be available to the Celtic tribes in the British isles, where they still used them.

[AlexPeters]

Here's a proposal for the Etruscians, the dba army lists aren't the holy gral and sometimes a little bit undetailed. I was wrong too, there are only 4 classes, not 6:

1st class:
Greek Phalanx
armored, nobles (could afford the armor), normal greek tactics (1 supporting rank)

2nd and 3rd class:
unarmored italian spearman, you can use this picture (square shield is typical for early italian troops):
3rd rank etruscian/italian spearman
I think the 2nd class was a little bit better, maybe comparable to the difference between hastati and principes.

4th class:
you can use this picture:
Light skirmisher (2-3 javelins)

The 2nd, 3rd and 4th classes were formed by social lower classes or allies.

Volsci and Hernici
Here's a picture of the so called Warrior of Capestrano, you can see the strange helmet. That's how italian mountain tribe warriors must have been looking. Another picture:
warrior of the volsci. They used javelins and sword only afaik. Only their nobles should get those breastplates i think. metal was rare in ancient times.

The Samnites didn't use swords. They fought with javelins only.

You should add slingers, a common weapon in ancient times (i think HTW has some), especially those from rhode and the balearic isles were famous.

Carthage should get access to the units of the etruscians, samnites and mountain tribes (units only buildable in italy). They were allied with Hannibal as he rampaged italy.

The cavalry should be rare in early, i think, double production time, the horse needs training .
I think best cavalry of the time means nothing imho, they hadn't stirrups, so they had to fight with javelins.

Alex

[Zanderpants]

Alrighty, nix to the Etruscan chariots and swordsmen then. As for the infantry, that's basically what I had in mind. The heavy infantry are hoplites basically, and the Etruscan Infantry are the unarmored spearmen that you're talking about. I know that the Etruscans were not an equistrian society, but they need at least one horse unit imho. I meant to add slingers, but I accidentally dropped em from the list. As for dba, yes, I know that it's not the most accurate, I'm also using a variety of books on the subject.

As to cavalry, I agree, they should be a rarety. However, cavalry at the time didn't just fight with javelins because they had no stirrup. Yes, many cavalry used javelins, but look at the Macedonian companion cavalry for instance. They seemed to manage pretty well without the stirrup in melee.
Thanks,
Z

[Medieval Assassin]

Im not right great at modding, But I would like to write up the unit descriptions...

[Al Khalifah]

Quote[/b] ]It says that at this time, the Celts actually did have a good cavalry force. Definetly the best in Western Europe at the time, so I think that there'll be mounted nobles, and horsemen, plus the other Celtic units.

Couldn't agree more. The Celtic cavalry was one of the main influences on Roman military tactics and on the development of the Roman army. The Celts inflicted some serious defeats on the early Romans through their clever use of cavalry and even later on Roman march columns were ambushed by Celtic horsemen. They were the main reason why the Romans developed strong, but never as strong, cavalry of their own and in part caused the rise in station of the Equite class (though not the only reason).