battlefield ninja...

[Whitey]

I am er...dubious about the use of these troops - could someone please tell me what were battlefield ninja or is this a concuction of fantasy like the use of naginata troops...

[solypsist]

hey you obviously haven't seen the expansion packs biggest attraction which is the small but special unit of heroes, each dressed in a winged suit with helmets that closely resemble birds. (owl, duck, eagle, etc.) They move as fast as battlefield ninja but are much more expensive. and historically correct, too.

[Whitey]

hmm...I don't quite know what to say best say nothing...

[Anssi Hakkinen]

There is extensive speculation on BField Ninja in the "some small things" thread, as well as info on what they really were during Sengoku Jidai.

But what do you mean when you say Naginata are a fantasy unit? Naginata/nagamaki were certainly used in combat in the 16th century, and a unit armed exclusively with them is no more unrealistic than a unit armed exclusively with no-dachi (ie unrealistic, but not intolerably so, considering the game's limitations).

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"If you start a fight, you must win it. Fighting, however, is not your objective. The most important thing is to win without fighting."
- Risuke Otake Sensei

[Magyar Khan]

or fight if u a sure that u wont take any loss!

[Whitey]

A Naginata was generally given to women Samurai to be used as protection, It was damn rare for them to be used by men...as women although theoretically allowed the honour of fighting did not do as much as your average man it seems to me that it is just being used as a balancer as it was really not used that often.

[Obake]

Hate to disappoint Whitey, but the Naginata didn't become a "Woman's weapon" until after the Tokugawa Bakufu was firmly entrenched. Previous to that it's use was fairly widespread among the warrior class.

The reason it became such a favorite among women was it's exceptional balance. That Naginata could be wielded at a distance greater than that of the Katana (primarily against mounted opponents) as well as up close and personal.

This flexibility is what made the Naginata such an effective tool. It was also the favorite among the Sohei which is why the WM units in the game are armed with them. What stood the Naginata apart was the fact that it was primarily a defensive weapon rather than an offensive one.

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FearObake
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[Ii Naomasa]

Obake-san speaks the truth (and stole almost the very words I was going to type on the subject (thank goodness for distractions and then refreshing before posting ). Anyone who wants to say that naginata are a woman's weapon better not say it to the face of Benkei, the legendary behemoth of a warrior monk who served Minamoto Yoshitsune (although whether or not he actually used the weapon...or was as large a man as legend makes him is up for grabs).

As Obake-san points out, the naginata, especially the shorter-staved variant, that we today associate with female samurai was utilized after the Sengoku period as a good weapon for women to use against attacking swordsmen in defense of home and hearth. Naginata that stood around five and half to six feet or longer (and their cousin, the nagimaki, which was similar in principle, except more blade and less staff) were (like most polearms, spears, and long blades) true battlefield weapons and date back to the early centuries of the millenia.

Much like the no-dachi and tachi gave way to the somewhat shorter katana during the Tokugawa period (when duels and etiquette became more important than engagements on large battlefields), so did the naginata fall out of favor with the average bushi.

What I find interesting is how so much of our perception of samurai and their ilk is based on the Tokugawa period. Perhaps because it was a period where the warrior class needed to define and refine itself in lieu of having battles to go to.

[This message has been edited by Ii Naomasa (edited 12-27-2000).]

[johnmcd]

...and back to black pyjama men.

I hope they can swim rivers due to their lack of armour. That would be well cool.

[solypsist]

here's a screenshot of that new unit I was talking about. Totally historical. Really.

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[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 12-27-2000).]

[Ii Naomasa]

You know, ninja only started wearing black pajamas during the Tokugawa period. Prior to that, they wore warrior monk underoos....

As discussed in one or two other threads since it became known that they were in the game, while operatives who performed clandestine acts of sabotage, espionage, and assassination were part of the Sengoku battlefield, they weren't necessarily 'battlefield ninja'. In at least some instances, samurai themselves performed these functions (despite all the stereotypical 'code of honor' stuff that gets thrown out the window in warfare...of course, it only affected one's honor if one was caught or admitted to it).

Even so, most of these functions were usually performed in the time frame before the actual main engagement...which is what Shogun tends to represent in a semi-abstract fashion. If the taishos were more stationary, I could see the use of them as a sure-fire assassination-attempt unit (although they probably shouldn't survive long against decent guards).

One could also argue that they can be used as skirmishers (according to some stories, Minamoto Yoshitsune used such tactics involving men whose descendents would later be founding members of some ninja families), but in such a case I'd almost prefer a 'skirmisher' title.

In any case, the ability to traverse terrain efficiently and stealthily would make up for any combat weaknesses...if for nothing else, but the psychological value of having troops suddenly appear behind enemy lines.

You know, we may be working ourselves up over this unit and the kensai unit only to find them as part of some special part of the scenarios CA/DT have in store.

Oh, and solypsist-san, I wonder if most people will get the full reference, as I don't remember the American version (Battle of the Planets) ever directly referring to them as ninja (I may be wrong though).


I wonder if these Battlefield Ninja will be able to transmute?
Yet another childhood memory that has forced its way to the surface!

[This message has been edited by Ii Naomasa (edited 12-27-2000).]

[Whitey]

damn - foiled by superior knowlege ...but it does raise the point stated by Ii Naomasa...those Tokugawa devils really did give us our picture of the Samurai...the thing that interests me is that I was told that during Sengoku Jidai it was a womans weapon by a Japanese bloke (and one who recons he knows the period) - That shows something too.

[This message has been edited by Whitey (edited 12-27-2000).]