Community Mod 1.0

[CBR]

A public version is now ready for all who are interested in trying something different and much better IMO.


Installation details:

This mod will work with VI so you dont need a second install.

It also works with Mods like Reconquista, War of the Roses (soon to be finished) and Barocca's STW mod for VI.

There are 2 ways you can install it: using an autoinstaller or a zipfile for manually copying the files.

Autoinstaller can be found here

A zip file here

There is also a webpage with a list of all unitstats here

The autoinstaller should find the correct folder by itself but if you have several VI installs, you might want to use the zip file instead.

Unzip it to a temporary folder. There are 3 files to copy into your VI folder. Copy High+.txt to Campmap/startpos folder and copy the other 2 files (mpcrusaderprod.txt and mpbuild.txt) to the main/root folder of VI.

The autoinstaller also comes with an uninstaller that can be located in your main VI folder. Or delete the 3 files manually.

When you have installed the mod you will have one new era: High+. This era is the one the host picks to use the new unitstats.


Changes:

I already described the basic ideas I had with this mod in an earlier thread, but I will gladly do it again.

This mod is meant for 10k but can also be played at 8-9k, but 10k is the standard I aimed for. Its designed to be played without using upgrades. You can still upgrade units but its simply not worth it as you can always spend money buying another and better unit instead.

Morale has been tweaked to be between 5-8 for infantry and 4-9 for cavalry.

Spears have been improved (+1 attack compared to VI) but are individual much slower at turning so flank/rear attacks are more deadly. Heavier spears also have slower running/charging speed.

Polearm units have been made cheaper compared to swords and now have +4 attack v cav instead of +3. Urban Militia and Militia Sgts have now polearms.

Missile armed have been improved by being cheaper and having more ammo (36 arrows for bows instead of 28)

Horsearchers now use the same bow as foot archers so will have slightly better accuracy.

The slow marching speed for pavs and heavy footknights have been changed to normal speed. Several lightly armored units are now fast foot.

Javelin armed skirmishers have more ammo and are now equipped with a heavy throwing spear instead (same weapon as Bonnachts) Melee units like Almughavars have same ammo as VI but also use new weapon.

Some units have been removed from the mod (historical reasons mainly) but otherwise its still like High era.

Several units have had their stats changed. Mainly an increase in armour/defense for some of the cheaper units. And of course the general +1 attack for spears.

40 men infantry units have been changed to 60 men.

Mongols and Burgundians are included in the mod. Mongols with improved infantry while Burgundians are a standard western faction.


Gameplay:

Picking an army will be different compared to what you are used to in VI. No upgrades might sound strange if not boring at first, but the increased morale and new costs for units means that you have a lot of choices when buying an army.

The mod tries to encourage combined arms so having swords only as your infantry is not the best idea. Spears now works well as your main line unit while using swords and polearms on your flanks.

The heavy sword/polearm units of 800+ florins can still be used in frontal assaults using wedge against most heavy spear lines.

The heavy cavalry will be stronger against the swords but there will be fewer units and they face more spears/polearms in the mod compared to VI. Increased use of missiles also hurt the cavalry.

Archers and missile units in general are more important as they are cheap and archers with 36 ammo can be quite devastating. Pavs still have a role at the front but cost 400 florins compared to 300 for basic crossbows/archers and 100 florins saved is a lot in this mod.

I know some might say things like "RTW is out in a few months anyway" or "Why bother trying to learn about all the units" But I believe the gameplay and unitchoice is quite intuitive because of no upgrades. And from the fun I and the testers have had so far, I would say its quite worth spending some time on this mod until RTW comes out.

Im a modder by heart so I cant rule out a 1.1 but as it is now I feel that the mod plays as it should, so give it a try.

Oh yes the testers. All you who stood up to version conflicts and several beta versions.. without your encouragement and suggestions this mod would never have been finished.

A big thanks to all of you.

[Orda Khan]

On the contrary CBR, all the thanks go to you for your determination to create a Mod of such quality, it's MTW as it should have been.

It was great to see all the positive comments after last night's games and I'm sure there will be more if people give it a try. I certainly am not at all interested in playing the regular game now....this is so much better.

That last 3v3, looking at the 3 defending armies cresting the ridge, I remember thinking how much more realistic it looked. They teamed up and did a major, nasty job on my ranged units ( excellent team work guys ) The gameplay is simply superb and I sincerely hope the MP community support you and give it a try, it's no less than you deserve for creating this masterpiece.

Thanks CBR

......Orda

[Nigel]

Well, I for one very much enjoyed the honour of suffering the first ever defeat of this mod.


But yea, I am looking foreward to the Rock-Paper-Scissor principle finally working properly.

[M.Cornelius Marcellus]

Great Job CBR and thanks

Marcus

[Duke John]

Most excellent It may not be worth alot, since I am not that much online, but I will now delete my regular campaigns and solely use yours. Finally some realistic battles.

I shall use some tricks to make this more widely known.

Cheers, Duke John

[Kaatar]

That's much better than the original. And now my guys won't just bugger off at the start because of low morale. I'm SO using this.

Thanks buddy

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi CBR,

thx for these great stats. I absolutely love waht you did to the Turcoman Horses. Now they're finally up to my expectations. I found it so ridiculous for dedicated Horse-Archers to have the same morale as Vanilla HA.
They should be deadly now. Quite a gift for Turk- Players.
The other units look good, too. More men in the Muwahid unit makes sense. And I guess I could even use Arab Infantry. A unit whose use I couldn't see until now. Just bought Ghazi all the time.
Where are my Futtuwa? Gone? Why? Do they resemble too much the JanInfantry and are thus obsolete now?

I can't wait to play it, although I only played ShogunMI recently.
Don't bother about Rome coming out. I guess it will take time until MTW is abandoned.

Cheers

R'as al Ghul

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi CBR,

thx for these great stats. I absolutely love waht you did to the Turcoman Horses. Now they're finally up to my expectations. I found it so ridiculous for dedicated Horse-Archers to have the same morale as Vanilla HA.
They should be deadly now. Quite a gift for Turk- Players.
The other units look good, too. More men in the Muwahid unit makes sense. And I guess I could even use Arab Infantry. A unit whose use I couldn't see until now. Just bought Ghazi all the time.
Where are my Futtuwa? Gone? Why? Do they resemble too much the JanInfantry and are thus obsolete now?

I can't wait to play it, although I only played ShogunMI recently.
Don't bother about Rome coming out. I guess it will take time until MTW is abandoned.

Cheers

R'as al Ghul

[Znake]

I gonna give it a try ..

[shingenmitch2]

I have only played one game so far, so the jury is still out on the game-play stat tweeks.

But I will say that on first blush, unit picking is what IT ALWAYS should have been. This is fantastic. You want a better spear, pick the logically better spear unit. You want a better sword, pick the intuitively better sword unit. I didn't have to do my usual fekking little dance of "okay -- if I buy x at Valor 3 it costs XX, but maybe this lesser unit at V4 which costs XX is a better overall value, now what happens with this next unit if I do V3 A1 -- ah it costs..."

[shingenmitch2]

CA take note of this mod

LongJohn or Capt. Fishpants, download the thing and try it. See why unit picking (at 10,000k) seems so much cleaner and clearer. It is a VERY interesting model that CBR has come up with. It is finally intuitive and that will really help noobs who want to play online.

I think it should provoke some very intersting design debate at CA. Here is someone who is putting forth easy solutions that could be implemented -- this isn't usual bitching w/o offering help. You guys might not decide to implement for one reason or another, but it really should be analyzed and given consideration.

[Puzz3D]

By adjusting unit price upwards CBR has solved several basic problems without requiring army purchase rules. First, the amount of upgrading you can do at 10k is limited which makes unit behavior based on type more predictable. You don't need this upgrading for morale purposes anymore since the infantry's morale has been raised. Second, cavalry is a real threat to rout ranged units since armor upgrading is limited. Even cav archers are a serious threat to ranged. Third, less armor upgrading means more effectiveness in the shootout. If you mismanage your ranged units during the skirmishing phase, it will be very costly to your melee inf later. Fourth, you cannot afford to buy 16 elite units at 10k, so loading up on only the best units isn't an option. Fifth, the ranged units have been made relatively cheaper compared to the melee units. This means more variety in the armies without disadvantage, and a gameplay that remains close to the combined arms design of the mod. You are better able to tailor the army to your style of play than in the regular game. It also means that the muslim factions are improved relative to the western factions, and they don't seem disadvantaged now compared to western factions. As Mitch points out, unit choice is more intuitive. You can basically go by the unit's cost to judge its strength, so there isn't a huge learning curve related to army purchase.

[CBR]

Quote[/b] ]Where are my Futtuwa? Gone? Why? Do they resemble too much the JanInfantry and are thus obsolete now?

Well yes I removed Fut and turcoman foot as they already had so many other different hybrids. Jan archers have been improved so the Turk player now has one archer type for each 100 florin increment.

Jan and ottoman units are more historical and turcoman foot are now a mongol unit.


CBR

[VikingHorde]

Are the stats allso good for campain play. If those stats are much better, then it could be a good idea to add them into my next mod release. I often wonder how to make the game harder, so could be a good idea.

It's a shame that I don't have internet on my own PC, could be fun to play online.

[AggonyDuck]

Gah Futuwwas and Turcoman Foots were my favourite hybrids....

[CBR]

Well I think you would find the Turks to be a good faction and gives you many options. You still have several hybrids and Saracens and JHI are both good choices for heavier melee troops.


CBR

[Jochi Khan]

Hi CBR

What can I add to the already glowing compliments from those who have already tried your mod.

The praise is all richly deserved by you.

3v3 and 4v4 battles have been tremendous.

To those who have not yet installed it...get it...
I only have one install of mtw/vi but all my mods are on it,
thats how easy things are.

Well done CBR congratulations.

.....Jochi

[dire wolf]

hi there CBR i've tried your stats and i must say i liked them a lot. i wanted to ask if there's some way of using them in the campaign game, other that someone putting them in their mod. i mean, there's some way to replace the original units with yours?

thanks
cheers

[CBR]

dire wolf:

Well I deliberately made it so that people couldnt play the High+ era in campaign. I havent done anything with Mongols and Burgundians to balance startpositions, just what was needed to make them available for MP. The new unitcosts might also change some things and maybe not even suited for SP, but Im not sure.

But the new unitstats can be used for a SP campaign if people wants that. Make a backup of your CRUSADERS_UNIT_PROD11.TXT and then rename MPCRUSADERPROD.TXT. First one is the default unitstats and second one is used for the mod.

Of course that means some swapping files when you want to play a normal game with default stats... But its only one file heh.

In hindsight maybe I should have made the mod so it could be played in SP (even if not balanced for it) since a few have been asking about that...


CBR

[TosaInu]

Hello,

An alternative for SP might be to make a copy of the original High startpos file? Something like High+SP? Edit it so it uses the High+ stat. There's no need to swap then.
This is useful for people who play both SP and MP.

[donbatti]

yay great mod :)

[Bezalel]

Sounds good CBR. Thanks for the time and effort.

[ShadeHonestus]

Okay, question...and forgive the naiveness of it, but I've been away for awhile.

If I install this mod, will it be playable across VI and MTW or do those versions still have to match opponents to play?

I left right before VI came out so not sure how all this goes. Also, silly question and probably best asked elsewhere, but can VI peeps play down on MTW games that are posted...

Thank you much for bringing me up to speed...

[CBR]

VI and MTW (version 2.01 and 1.1) are using the same server but cant see nor play games hosted by the other version.

This mod is for VI so can only be played with other VI users.


CBR

[shingenmitch2]

No response yet from any of the CA guys?
Kind of annoying. I know they read these boards as they occaisonally reply to things. Unfortunately it seems they do so only when they are being very defensive about something or if a post was so stupid they've got an easy slam for it. I think the mod deservses an honest appraisal and comment from them -- heck even a simple acknowledgement that they've taken a look at it.

In another thread I'd asked for a simple explanation for the lack of an hoplite-phalanx overhand-spear animation -- if it is planned, or if they couldn't do it, a simple reason why. I'm still waiting on that reply too.

[Puzz3D]

Mitch,

CA hasn't been around here for quite a while, and if they are evaluating anything it's probably gameplay in the upcoming RTW on which they can't comment. What's interesting is the lack of interest by the community considering all the complaining that was done about the regular game. I've spoken to several long time players who don't want to "ruin" their regular game skills by playing the mod. I've spoken to other players who won't play the mod until it is the standard. So, it's difficult to generate the critial mass necessary to create a new standard. In anycase, if CA wants some ideas on how to improve multiplayer they should look at this mod. It has a straightforward system for army purchase with unit costs which relate directly to a unit's performance in multiplayer, a good RPS, a large number of useful units including ranged units which are relatively cheaper than melee units, and more useable factions with better east/west balance.

I think by providing modding capability along with the dev's many posts explaining how the game engine works that CA has left it to the community to come up with their own standard for multiplayer. Unfortunately, the larger community was unable to evolve that standard. With the Community Mod, CBR has attempted to make the tactical gameplay be what most players expected it to be in the regular game. There is nothing magic about the final official version v2.01. That version is only three steps of refinement from the original v1.0 release, but there were important changes to multiplayer made in those patches in areas that cannot be modified by players. Ironically, the kings dying at 56 years was very likely the only reason the v2.01 patch was made. We've certainly seen statements from devs indicating that they are only going to put a certain amount of effort into multiplayer and that single player is the priority. You don't have to have great insight to figure that this style of development is going to carry over into RTW as well. I think we are going to be facing the same situation RTW multiplayer that we have in MTW.

[Bezalel]

They may be worried about how it would effect the campaign. They would probably want to stray from having a system for multi and one for single. If they only had CBR's method, a campaign would be equivalent to the 99999 games on mp (if they keep the 'every two stars=+1val' rule). This lacks the intricate nature of morale.

P.S. Correct me if I'm wrong about valour in your mod CBR. Just throwing out an idea.

[Nigel]

Very good post, Yuuki.

Quote[/b] ]...only going to put a certain amount of effort into multiplayer and that single player is the priority.

And that is hardly surprising. What is the ratio of regualr MP players to all people who have bought the game? 10% ?
I wonder if it's even that much.

So while this may be sad, it is nonetheless the reality we will have to live with.

Quote[/b] ]I've spoken to several long time players who don't want to "ruin" their regular game skills by playing the mod

Another very important point when considering the hurdles of a MP mod, along with "will it interfere with my installation" and "RTW will be out soon, anyway".

Quote[/b] ]I've spoken to other players who won't play the mod until it is the standard.

Very understandable, too.

The lesson is :
We should make a RTW mod optimized for MP as early as possible. And before a standard for the regular game develops. That will make it much easier for a custom build mod to penetrate the community.

I realize that this is easier said than done (especially since I am not a modder myself).
But I think the early warning signs for RTW would be :
* is RPS working?
* is there enough variety in useful (i.e. cost efficient) units?
* are factions sufficiently balanced?
* (add whatever else is important)


If the answer to many of these is NO, then there is a starting point for an early RTW Community Mod, which could come out before standards with the official version of the game get set in stone.

[shingenmitch2]

Actually Yuuk,
one of the devs was, at least , tracking the reaction to their new Scythian units, as they came on for a retort to a peeps post for that. So they do still knock around on here. The second question about the animation goes strait to Single play and should hardly be secret dev work.

[CBR]

Quote[/b] (Bezalel @ June 07 2004,19:39)]They may be worried about how it would effect the campaign. They would probably want to stray from having a system for multi and one for single. If they only had CBR's method, a campaign would be equivalent to the 99999 games on mp (if they keep the 'every two stars=+1val' rule). This lacks the intricate nature of morale.

P.S. Correct me if I'm wrong about valour in your mod CBR. Just throwing out an idea.

You are correct in the sense that units in SP can get very high morale values because of generals and upgrades. If MP morale is increased that would make it even worse in SP.

I remember in one of my few SP games that I had some morale 20 royal knights

The MP community have for a long time wanted seperate stats so CA wouldnt be limited by concerns for changes in SP gameplay. In VI we got 2 new columns in the unitstat file just for MP/custom battles (era and faction for a unit) and if we could get one for cost and even morale then it would be perfect I think.

So if CA could do a bit more for MP then it would make any needed MP statchanges a lot easier to implement.

One problem with morale is that there is a big difference in 1v1 to 4v4 games. IIRC LongJohn did mention that the current morale system maybe wasnt suited for big games and some tweaks could be done.

Having a whole allied army rout into your army is not gonna happen in a 1v1 so high morale is not as important in 1v1 games which is also my experience so far. I have played 1v1 5k games that worked nicely but in a chaotic 3v3/4v4 it suddenly feels very fragile.

That was the main reason I made the drastic morale changes in later versions of the mod.


CBR