Refeered Multiplayer Campaign

[ConstableBrew]

I've started playing with the god mode where one can switch between factions by pressing the number keys. It seems that it is possible to play each and every faction at one time. I may be totally wrong as I've done only a little expermenting, but if this is possible then we can all hvae the multiplayer campaign we've all been longing for. I imagine that one player would have to referee the game and it will probably have to be a play by email (PBeM) style game with each player moving his units and setting his queues up or possibly just writing down the desired actions and saving the game then emailing the saved game file to the referee. The referee will then take the time to process all the turns. Any battles will be setup and played out in realtime between players online.

Has anyone done anything like this? Is anyone interested?

[afrit]

I am very interested. In fact, I posted twice in the last week about this (once in PBM forum and once in main hall). Unfortunately, not many replies.

see


thread in PBM

and

as followup post in main hall

I don't think you can get a real multiplayer in the sense f two players simultaneously playing against each other. If you switch factions every year (or every other year), the AI could really mess up your faction's plan in the intervening year. Also, there is no mechanism for 2 players to face each other in online battle. Also, switching this often will slow down the play bay mail so much it won't work.

The only way this would work, is to have a competitive play-by-mail where players switch factions after playing for many years. Here how I propose it:

GA mode/Expert difficulty

First player (or team) picks a Hard faction to start with. PLays until first round of GA points calculated.

Second player picks different faction (switch using god mode cheat). Plays until next GA poinst counted.

First player turn . He can either play his original faction, OR pick a new faction to play with (a faction that player 2 has not played yet).

Second player turn. Pick new faction or return to old faction he played.

etcetera

At end of game, the one who owns the faction with most points wins.

There is a lot of competition in such a game. WHich factios fo you pick? do you go after your opponent's last faction, or develop a third one? how do you set up your faction so that it does well under AI guidance for the next 25 years.

It is not true multiplayer, but competitive enough.

afrit

[ConstableBrew]

I was thinking something along the lines of one turn per day/week or some similar time frame.

1. Referee sends out saved game to all players.
2. Each palyer uses cheat to open saved game as his designated faction.
3. Players write down all actions and email the referee them. -- Ideally players could send the referee a saved game with the actions of his faction setup just waiting for a press of the end turn button, but I think that would cause too much confusion for the referee. By each player writing them down the referee then has the ability to recreate each action for all the palyer's factions and then end the turn and let the computer process the remaining factions.
4. Referee processes all player actions and advances the game to the next turn.
5. Any battles that occur with players (between players or player and computer) are then played out through the game. This is done by the referee scheduling a time/date for players to meet online, pick the proper units, and then fight out the battle.
6. Somehow (not sure about this part) the referee will update the campaign with the results of the battles.
7. Save the game, repeat process.

A well managed game might take some sort of abstract written by the referee to bring players up to speed as it is likely that several days will pass between turns.

[ConstableBrew]

I just read through the posts you mention above - as I expected alot of people would love a multiplayer campaign. I'm going to be out on a trip for the next few days and won't be playing any mtw. I haven't had a chance to play with the god mode more than a few minutes, so if someone (afrit?) could help me clarify just what is do-able I'd appreciate it.

[katank]

I doubt it would be possible to do MP.

there is no way for reinforcements in MP and neither are there ways of making shattered units on the campaign map.

just autocalcing everything might be an acceptable solution.

[afrit]

I agree with Katank that it is not possible to do a proper (simultaneous) MP campaign game.

Specifically, in ConstableBrew's post steps #3 and 5 are a problem: -ian (god mode) will not allow you to play more than one faction at a time. I.e when the referee hits End Year, only the faction he is playing will be skipped by AI. All others will go Thinking... and so a human-played faction will be replayed by the AI and possibly change all actions.

As for #5, there are no mechanisms to transfer the results of online MP battles to the campaign map.

Unless major hacking/recoding is done the MTW executable, simultaneous MP campaign will not be achieved.

(I still think my idea of an alternating reign multiple player campaign is worth a try. It is not true MP, but makes for interesting game. Once I have time, I will launch a PBM based on that idea in the Throne Room).


Having said all that, I still think CA should include a RTW multi-player campaign feature. (Yes it is doable).


afrit

[katank]

yep, your idea is very interesting. it forces you to become strong but also keep other factions more or less balanced.

too bad my save games don't work or I'd be glad to participate.

[TonkaToys]

Quote[/b] (afrit @ July 19 2004,04:23)]I agree with Katank that it is not possible to do a proper (simultaneous) MP campaign game.
...
Unless major hacking/recoding is done the MTW executable, simultaneous MP campaign will not be achieved.

Hi all

I'm working on an online MP campaign system (check out my sig for additional info).
It's hard going but I am progressing. Hope to have a playable simple system available soon.

[afrit]

@TonkaToys,

Nice work Very interesting map. I see your approach is to redo the entire playing interface. Looks like a lot of work. I hope you get it done before RTW comes out.. I'd like to try it.

Another approach is to try to hack into MTW to develop tools for the multiplayer game.

I am not a full-blown programmer (at least not on PC's, I've done some Mac work), but I think some things can be done to facilitate MP game. In particular we need the following:

1. A hack or modification of the god mode -ian to disable AI for some factions instead of all or no factions

2. A compare savegame tool to extract the moves that a player has done so as to help the referee reapply them.

3. A mechanism to help players resolve the dialog questions of Auto-calc battle vs play personally vs abandon province etc..

4. A mechanism to answer other questions like Accept marriage/alliance/etc...)

5. A mechanism to transfer results of online MP battle between 2 players to the campaign map.

6. A modified version of MTW to disable -ian mode for players to avoid cheating

Most important is #2, because it will allow #5 (if you can modify the savegame, you can do a lot). I think hacking the savegame file is theoretically possible.
As for #1 and #6, maybe one of the programmers can help with that (hopefully it is a simple on-off statement in the code on whether a faction in played by AI).

The toughest one to do is #3.

Here's how it would work:

Referee generates several copies of the same savegame, each with a different faction enabled as the human and sends it to all players.
Players make their moves. Before hitting end-year, they save the game and send to referee.
Referee uses the compare-savegame-tool to come up with list of moves for the faction. Then applies said moves to a master savegame.Then referee disables AI for the factions played by humans and hits End Year.

Now you hit the snag. What would the referee do if a player is given the option to auto-resolve, play personally , withdraw etc.?. Possible solution is for players to indicate ahead of time what they would do (e.g I will withdraw if outnumbered 2:1, but will fight with better odds). Or players are online simultaneously and answer the question as soon as the referee asks it. But then, if one of them decides to play personally you have to force the others to wait You can potentially postpone the battle till all such questions are resolved, but that removes one aspect of the game where the results of one battle will determine whether your army in the next battle has a place to withdraw to or not.

Once battles are decided upon, players play them on their computer against the AI or against each other online (for online battle, an equivalent army is decided for each player since online MP does not allow for depleted units or reinforcements). The results are mailed to the referee who then applies them to the savegame (again using tool #2).


Then repeat process.


I don't think this will be done for MTW, but maybe for RTW the programmers can leave us more hooks (like -ian or other modes) to do a play-by-mail multiplayer .

afrti

[TonkaToys]

Quote[/b] (afrit @ July 19 2004,13:57)]@TonkaToys,

Nice work Very interesting map. I see your approach is to redo the entire playing interface. Looks like a lot of work. I hope you get it done before RTW comes out.. I'd like to try it.

Another approach is to try to hack into MTW to develop tools for the multiplayer game.

...
2. A compare savegame tool to extract the moves that a player has done so as to help the referee reapply them.

Thanks Afrit,

the map was one that was originally designed for Duke John's War Of The Roses' mod.
With the help of an HTML editor it could just as easily be the MTW map of Europe, although there are so many provinces it would probably knacker the server.

It would be a lot easier if we could just decipher the Save Campaign file

edit: shortened the quote

[ConstableBrew]

Quote[/b] (katank @ July 18 2004,23:59)]yep, your idea is very interesting. it forces you to become strong but also keep other factions more or less balanced.

too bad my save games don't work or I'd be glad to participate.

Why don't your save games work? (I assume the answer to this is buried in the forums, but I'm having a hard enough time just keeping up with the new stuff)

[katank]

some strange bug concerning my game that somehow made it impossible for others to load my game without CTD or freezing.

I first realized it when I tried to do some PBMs.

[ConstableBrew]

Hmm.... I suppose the god mode isn't as great as it first appeared to me.

Maybe a round-robbin style PBeM would be possible. A player making a turn for there faction, saving the game and passing it on to the next player in line. That player would then play his faction, save the game and pass it on.

This would be reasonable with 4-6 players, and maybe even 8. There still would be the problem of reproducing MP battle results in the campaign. I do believe someone is going to have to do some major hacking to allow direct editing of saved games.





TonkaToys, I am very interested in what you are doing. I am a VB, ASP, and SQL programmer with a wee bit of Java. I have built Win2K IIS servers before as well and may be able to acquire a machine to put on my 3MB down/ 300Kb up cable line if you need a server. If so, what specs would you think it would need?

Again, anything I can do to help would be a pleasure. My email is mkbrewer@facnet.ucla.edu

[TonkaToys]

Quote[/b] (ConstableBrew @ July 20 2004,15:31)]I am very interested in what you are doing. I am a VB, ASP, and SQL programmer with a wee bit of Java. I have built Win2K IIS servers before as well and may be able to acquire a machine to put on my 3MB down/ 300Kb up cable line if you need a server. If so, what specs would you think it would need?

Thanks for the interest ConstableBrew... I'll send you an email.

[G-Con Daniel]

there is the ability to play multiplayer campaigns in RTW, probably on Gamespy arcade.

[TonkaToys]

Quote[/b] (G-Con Daniel @ July 21 2004,08:34)]there is the ability to play multiplayer campaigns in RTW, probably on Gamespy arcade.

Hi G-Con Daniel

Can I ask where you got this info, as most of the other posts I've seen say there is no MP Campaign in RTW.
I'd like to know, cos then I wouldn't have to create one

Thanks

[ConstableBrew]

I have read somewheres on the official website that there will be NO multiplayer campaign in RTW.

[katank]

yep, I've heard explicitly of no MP campaigns even though many long for it.

[ConstableBrew]

FYI

Tonka has given me a copy of the source and I will begin helping him develop mp-tw. And once I get past junior patron I will start posting in the main thread.