Ineffective units...

[RollingWave]

Although I think CA did a pretty good job to make almost all of the many many units in this game useful to some extend... but there are still some that just seem to be not so worthwhile if you factor in their ability compare to requriements/cost/and otehr similiar units etc....

Here's a few obvious once...

Ghulam cav: high req (not much easier to get than Fedual knights) but not very powerful... if you get v2 once from lesser armenia I guess they are ok... but obviously if ur in lesser armenia you oculd easily get the v2 armenia cav which has a better charge and everything else is the same... while are far easier to access..... being only 25 gold cheaper while a gazzillion time higher req is .... only the almos might even consider using it much imho.... and even then using high valor saharan in conjunction with bodyguards tend to work jsut as well and cheaper....

Abyssian guard: i think someone in CA might have made a error in it's upkeep entry or something (like putting a extra 1 XD)... these things themself aren't horrible.. until you consider they break the bank like knights to keep them in numbers... while they certainly aren't knights and ghazis are a age ealier and if used well can be even more effective ....

Berbers: I think they are slightly overpriced.... they cost like horse cavs but they lack the most fundemental advantage of horse cavs... being fast..... they can't outrun other cavs.. although they can beat most light cavs which makes them useful as protection for ur desert archers... but i don't think that trade is really worth the speed loss.. as they are basically unusable in terms of normal HA tactics....they are only useable if u build them out of morroco... which at least make them decent archers...

Add on.

[Quokka]

Lithuanian Cavalry: Horrendous build requirements for essentially Mounted Sergeants with +1 Def and only available in Lithuania and Livonia.

Janissary Archers: All that building for a 1 Att/ 0 Def Archer? Add a Swordsmiths Guild and get the much better Janissary Infantry.

[Axeknight]

Handgunners and Aquebusiers - Sloooooooow reload time (you only get one shot before the enemy's on you), even the lightest of cavs ride right over em like they weren't there, and the morale effect isn't useful anyways (organ guns are much better for that, especially fired into a mob of knights or on the extreme flank shooting into a melee, and they come in around the same time anyways). What can these guys do that arbs can't? I don't like em

[katank]

abyss guard are useless

JAs with valor bonus in Georgia are quite decent.

The handguns and arqs are useful. the gunpowder morale penalty is awesome.

they are also great at AP and can smash armor like nothing by shooting into rear of pinned knights.

the have decent defence and armor and the handguns are just about maa.

[RollingWave]

Right... forgot about lith cav... that's the same as the ghulam situation but a gazillion time worse XD...

Oh here's another one i forgot.

Ballista: let's face it... except maybe against a fort it's usless in a seige... and in a battle it's like a super long ranged single archer that can't move..... but i rather have 60 shorter ranged archer thx. it's not accurate enough and only hit's one unit at a time... except for the very rare occasion where you kill a king/general or something archers will always get much more kills while are much more tactically flexible.

[katank]

ballistas do have their uses.

they are quite accurate and good anticav if you have spear protection.

a pity that it can only kill one man at a time so 28 kills max.

[Armchair Athlete]

Spanish Javlinmen. Why build them at all when you can get the outstanding Spanish Jinettes?

[Oaty]

Quote[/b] (Armchair Athlete @ July 18 2004,00:41)]Spanish Javlinmen. Why build them at all when you can get the outstanding Spanish Jinettes?

You get 20 more of them and they do'nt take up as much room, plus javelins are quite deadly and those extra 20 can make a big difference

[Gith]

To state the obvious just for kicks, peasants.

[gaijinalways]

Peasants have their uses. There have been quite a few threads on this topic already, so briefly they can be used as;

A flank attacker

artillery fodder

a delayer

a distracting force

I would say camels are less useful (damn slow), pav albs and pav xbows in attacks (to slow to advance quickly and too slow to retreat off even in some defense situations) the extra shielding doesn't help when you are running, love cutting these guys down)

But in a sense, some units seem too expensive or take too long to make (building requirements) or too limited to an area (Swiss pikemen are great if you get Switzerland and don't finish the game before you get a chance to build them)

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] ] Abyssian guard: i think someone in CA might have made a error in it's upkeep entry or something (like putting a extra 1 XD)... these things themself aren't horrible.. until you consider they break the bank like knights to keep them in numbers... while they certainly aren't knights and ghazis are a age ealier and if used well can be even more effective ....

If I remember correctly, the reason why they are so expensive is that they are a guard unit, so all that money goes to weapon polishing (a CA member told this so...).

Citera[/b] ]abyss guard are useless as is abyss guard.

And handgunners and arqs are excellent if you know how to use them, I've killed 150+ with arqs, by using point blank range and not spending all my ammo.

Citera[/b] ]What can these guys do that arbs can't? I don't like em

They can kill 30 men in one volley if used right.

Mamluk handgunners is quite useless to, their only use is that they is more useful in the desert in a long battle. The regular handgunners ends up exhausted and after that they are useless.

Hashishin, they are good but with extreme building requirements or only available by Jihads. But their unit is too small, the only useful 12 men unit is berserks. They might be used as ambushers, but they still need the enemy to rout.
Same thing for Sherwood foresters (well not building requirements but availability).

[Demon of Light]

Viking Thralls. These guys are basically peasants with shields.

Bulgarian Brigands. As archers, they are on par with vanilla and in melee, they rout. Often, they rout before they even engage the enemy in a battle you're winning.

Ballista. Grossly ineffective and takes up a valuable unit slot

Not a combat unit but I also find Orthodox Bishops to be close to useless. Who needs faithful parishioners without Crusades or Jihads? To prevent revolts that almost never happen?

Urban Militia. Just build literally any combat building afterwords to get better troops.

[Ludens]

-Crossbowmen, Gendarmes, Khazar Royal Cavalry: none of these guys is useless, but all are made redundant by a small upgrade.
-Ballista: can't hit anything smaller than a wall, and for sieges there are better options.
-Trebuchet/Mangonel: to weak, a catapult is cheaper and is much more accurate.
-Viking Thralls: see Demon of Light
-Abessynian Guard: they should be powerful Gazi, instead they are just expensive Gazi.

[katank]

@AA, spanish javs are also a lot cheaper and more expendable than jinettes.

@ironside, I must have been drunk when I wrote that.

@DOL, ballista are ok very early on in the game as close to 28 guaranteed kills of a cav unit can take away much power from the enemy.

brigands are good skirmishers and are fast. their morale needs some work but they get a valor bonus and a church and chapterhouse would fix the morale up to reasonable.

UMs are extremely useful in the forest and as the HRE, have saved my sorry butt on many an occasion. they are the only AP capable troops you get fort level.

they make capable flankers and rear attackers, particularly against pinned armor.

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] ]Viking Thralls. These guys are basically peasants with shields.

And that actually helps against cav charges and arrows.
But yes, it's a peasant unit not a spearman.

I think I've been quite successful modding the game BTW, most units have a purpose now and are used.

And Katank what valour did those ballistas have? It think they can be useful at high valour in the way you described, but usually they got 0 valour and hit like 2 guys in a battle.

[katank]

I've used ballista in a single battle and it scored about a dozen kills. next battle, it kill 28.

it was bridge defense of khazar and I parked it at point blank range.

soon after, it was a virtual sniper.

taking down 28 heavy cav, often the general is nothing to sneer at to me, although arbs will probably get more kills in.

[PseRamesses]

I must confess I´ve never used foot javelins. It´s just based on their poor performance when I go against them so I really have no experience with them. Most units I´ve found a use for but thoose darn javelins are no good IMHO. Anyone found them really usefull?

[ah_dut]

hello, PseRamesses the reason that the AI can't use foot javs is skirmish. if you take it off and they get even 1 volley in they can do some decent damage, i like them personally

[RollingWave]

Javilns in general are very good ... if you want a good small very effective budget army you should always pack it with 1-2 group of javlin men... cause these dudes have the ability to litterally blow away a unit of ur choosing in very very short time (everything from peasent to kings....)
and most of them (espically jinnets) perform relatively well in melee (for their cost)

Urban milita are good units.... not because their stats is awsome or antyhing but cause they are the second lowest req general unit in the game.... when used out of neccesity they are still quiet useful for their cost/req...

Camels rule .... they are even more cost effective than spears vs cavs (even outside of desert).... while moving faster makes them more useful in rout chasing and to chase out foot archers (not ur best option.. but a better one than most things on foot) and their cost req (esppically for eggies) is basicall on par with peasents XD

Peasents are at least good for garrison.. :P though yes never use them in battle unless forced to.....

Brigades are not bad... in fact any archer that can get a valor bonus province are better than vilinna archers....

crossbows are useless though.... they shoudla been a age earlier than arbs which also make pavised arbs useless too... but pavised arbs are sick on the defense and even offesne if u do it right.. even imbaled cause they are basically invunerable to ranged fire themself

treb/mong are acturally somewhat more useful than catapult vs higher lvl castles but you need to be good at positioning.... and pults are much easier to get while more useful overall... so not a great

[solypsist]

i never found the hashishen to be worth the slot in a full banner.

[katank]

I like javs since they are the best jedi/heavy cav killers in early

pin with spears, take them off skirmish and hand target them.

killing half a unit of knights in a single volley definitely helps your side.

throw them from the rear of the knights if possible and after expending them, charge

they are also rather fast and can often chase down routers

[Armchair Athlete]

I have to disagree about the Spanish Javlinmen, Jinettes are faster (easier to keep alive), better fighters, higher morale (I think) and still easy to get (can be built in Leon which has a horse breeder in the start of any era). Sure you get 20 more Javlins per throw with Spanish Javlinmen, but the Jinettes outshine it in nearly every other way. Javlins are certaily good units. But not Spanish Javlimen when better Javlin uits are available.

[katank]

they are cheaper, cost less to maintain and are overall more expendable.

you rather lose a cheapo foot jav than a unit of cav that you paid 250 for, 2/3 the price of an RK.

[Armchair Athlete]

that is true, but if you are using Jinettes properly then very few will die anyway, due their speed they can outmanuever many attackers and only pick fights that suit them. They are also capable of easily attacking and defeating archers their main enemy. Something Spanish Javlinmen have a very difficult time doing (due to speed).

[The_Emperor]

All units have their uses in my opinion, but as for the more useless ones there are a few I never build...

Peasants These guys are only good for a cheap garisson or for soaking up arrow fire or assaulting a castle gate, cheap and expendable.

Urban Militia, same as Peasants but with an AP attack... They run just the same.

Bombards. Can't turn, chance of it blowing up goes up by 10% for every shot after its 3rd volley.

Mangonnels & Trebuchets, can't turn and much less useful than Catapults... Also by the time you manage to tech up to Mangonnels (Master Siege Engineer) you probably already have gunpowder.

Gendarmes, Why would you actually WANT to have these guys when you already have superior Chivalric Knights??

[WorkNeglecter]

Arab infantry. I raised this question recently and was roundly criticised for using Arab inf in battle. I have to agree that they are in all ways inferior to ghazis. The only way to make them worth it is to mod their defense up a bit from -2 to 0, that makes them okay.

But that's a mod, and therefore outside this discussion.

[ah_dut]

we're not really doing anything arab inf are useless though... that's a definite. Lith cav suck even more though

[The_Emperor]

Good point, no use building them when you have Ghazis.

[econ21]

Good thread - I agree with most of the picks here, but would put in a word for urban militia. I don't build them much, but they are ok in the very early stages. They are competitive with vanilla spearmen (attack 2, def -1 vs. attack -1, def -1), especially if strung out two wide. I don't think their morale is particularly bad. They certainly can't really be compared with peasants - who are defence -4. Of course, they are totally redundant when you can get MS or FMAA but for those you need a keep, which can take time in the first reign or two of the game.

[The_Emperor]

To be honest i'd rather take vanilla spearmen along than Urban militia, somehow they are more useful to me.