Rebuilding units

[Tenlarn]

Hello all, new to the TW games, picked up MTW about a month ago, and haven't been able to stop playing. New to the forum so if I make some mistakes I apologize. I do have a couple of questions and haven't been able to find the answers yet. I have read that you can send units to be rebuilt with new men and weapons, at provinces that have that abiltiy, but I have yet to figure out how. Is it possible and I don't have that level yet? Currently I am in the early years of Spain and have taken a few losses, still working on my strategy, I have a few units I want to keep, but they are begining to be picked apart. Thanks for any help.

[massamuusi]

The army has to start the turn in a province with the sufficinet training facility, for example, spearmen need spearmaker, and advanced units need the same facilities that are used to train them.
Select the army, then select the unit training menu, then drag the units you wish to retrain from the army onto the training queue. Units will be trained 1 / turn.
Note- when you retrain, you get all the armour/weapon/morale bonuses that units trained in that bonus would get when retraining, also, you keep the previous bonuses, such as valor, unless the unit is below maximum strength, in which case the unit will be reinforced with men that have the valour a new unit trained in that province would have, and the new valour is calculated same way as merging two units.
If you want to get really good quality troops as soon as possible, you can use 3 provinces together, build the necessary unit training facilities, after that, have province a build weapons smith (+ weapons quality), province b build armoury (+ armour quality) and the province c build churches etc (+ morale). Then train one unit in each, and make them circle each province, being retrained at each, this way, after circling the three provinces your units have better morale, weapons and armour. Possibly even better valour, depending on provincial bonuses and training facility level.
It's costs slightly more than having all upgrades at once, but it's much faster to have the provinces specialize, than to try make them all build all the buildings. You can do that later, of course, but at first it is useful to get as good troops as early as possible.
Hope that helps you.

[Tenlarn]

It does thank you, now I understand.

[ConstableBrew]

Quote[/b] (massamuusi @ July 20 2004,09:06)]If you want to get really good quality troops as soon as possible, you can use 3 provinces together, build the necessary unit training facilities, after that, have province a build weapons smith (+ weapons quality), province b build armoury (+ armour quality) and the province c build churches etc (+ morale). Then train one unit in each, and make them circle each province, being retrained at each, this way, after circling the three provinces your units have better morale, weapons and armour. Possibly even better valour, depending on provincial bonuses and training facility level.
It's costs slightly more than having all upgrades at once, but it's much faster to have the provinces specialize, than to try make them all build all the buildings. You can do that later, of course, but at first it is useful to get as good troops as early as possible.
Hope that helps you.

Interesting use of facilities and provinces. However I don't think it would pan out to be very useful... bear with me as I work it out before your very eyes

Distributed Unit Production
We have three provinces: A, B, and C and want basic spearmen with uber buffs.

To start, each province would have to build a Fort (400,4y), Town Watch(200, 2y), and the basic Spearmaker(200, 2y). We will also need a Keep(1000, 8y) before we can produce any buffs. We will start with these buildings in all three provinces. This is year 0. We will also assume that all three provinces are adjacent to one another in order to facilitate movement between provinces.

Province A will provide the armor bonus and build a Armourer(400, 4y)
Province B will provide the morale bonus and build a Church(200, 4y).
Province C will provide the weapon bonus and build a Swordsmith(400, 4y)

So after 4 years we will be able to start producing units with atleast one buff. We train one unit in each province on year 5. On year 6 we move each unit to a neighboring province. On year 7 we re-train each unit, giving them each two buffs. On year 8 we move each unit to the last remaing province. On year 9 we re-train each unit to give them each the final buff. On year 10 we have three spearmen with full buffs. (Basically units in province A go to B. Units in B go to C. And units in C go to A.) If we were to continue this process without changing anything we would get a crop of three spearmen every six years. Not too efficent in the long run. (3:10, 6:16, 9:22, etc.) Essentially these three provinces produce spearmen at the rate of half a single province. This rate can be improved easily.

On turn 5 we begin the process of training units in the cyclic retraining process described above. We also begin production of the following buildings.
Province A builds an Swordsmith.
Province B builds an Armourer.
Province C builds a Church.

Now when we get to turn 9 our provinces will each have two of the three upgrades. Come turn 10 we will have finished our first batch of uber spearmen and will be ready to start our second. Now our spearmen will only have to visit a second province in order to become uber. So turn 11 we train new spearmen. On turn 12 we move each one to the neighboring province. On turn 13 we train the units. On turn 14 we have our new crop ready for harvest.

This will put us two turns ahead of the previous setup if we had left it alone and not added additional upgrades, additionally we produce three uber spearmen in just four turns. (3:10, 6:14, 9:18) If we decide to go all the way and all the third and final upgrade to each province then we will produce uber spearmen at a rate of 3:1. (3:10, 6:14, 9:18, 12:19, 15:20, etc.)


But is all this effort worth it? It may very well be worth it if we intend on using three provinces to produce massive numbers of spearmen. This method will also be very demanding on the cash flow. Not only are we building several buildings at one time, but we also have to pay support cost on the units that we are upgrading as they really aren't usable yet. To do this you will have to spend cash as follows(turn:CASH): 1:1200, 5:1650, 6:150, 7:150, 8:150, 9:1350, 10:450, 11:150, 12:150, 13:150, 14:1650 If your bank can keep up with this demand than you are doing very well. It is also very unlikely that thise schema will be useful as this is only for basic spearmen. (Sorry, I mean uber-spearmen)


Had we decided to build up a single province to produce uber spearmen we could produce uber spearmen on turn 13 and beyond. That would put the distributed process only 4 units ahead in overall production by turn 14. Not a huge advantage. And again, we would have to deal with the disadvantage of spending the extra 400 bucks on the duplicate Spearmakers as well as the bulkiness of the three provinces.

In the end I think that using the three provinces to produce three seperate unit types, each one with an appropriate buff (infantry with weapon, spear with armor, halbred or bow with morale) would provide a better dynamic army and a more cost effective production of these low level units.

[massamuusi]

Well, I think you still get the few first units fully upgraded faster this way.

[Ecthelion]

As far as I can tell Brew's theory is impeccable, though as he says neither scenario would really be of much practical use. Interesting reading though

[Quokka]

You don't want to distribute the production too much. Doing it massamuusi's way it takes 5 years to produce a fully buffed unit and what happens if one of the provinces is invaded? Even if for only a turn the Churches could be destroyed if the invaders are Muslim or Orthodox.

Even if one of the provinces is not actually invaded but a neighbour becomes an enemy then you are likely to keep troops in the border province and the cycle will be broken.
And also if one of your provinces is not coastal but inland there may be another year or two required to get the unit where it is needed.

Sometimes that can't be helped, but using 3 provinces to build one unit type is very inefficient and as ConstableBrew pointed out after the first few years building the buildings in each province for the lower end units would speed the process up. It is not as slow as he says though because he forgot that a second group of 3 could be built on year 2 when the first group was moving and that would mean 6 every 7 years and a circle is not the best method anyway.

A better way would be a production line Starting with one unit in Province A and then moving on up and would give you one fully buffed unit every year after Year 4.

A few notable exceptions exist mostly to do with the valour bonus provinces. There are other also but some examples are :

*Chivalric Knights from Toulouse could be retrained in any of the Iron provinces for Weapons upgrades.

*Turcoman Horse Archers can be easily trained to V2 in Tripoli and then retrained, allowing Tripoli to get its farming and trade buildings working.

*Almohad Urban Militia can be trained V1 in Granada an then buffed in Cordoba, or not if they are to be used in the Desert.

[ConstableBrew]

Quote[/b] (massamuusi @ July 20 2004,17:31)]Well, I think you still get the few first units fully upgraded faster this way.

You are right, it does produce them faster, but in the long run it is very wasteful.

[gaijinalways]

I personally don't do a lot of retraining, rather I strive for building units in specialized provinces. Of course, earlier on your units are unbuffed, but so what of it?

I play on expert and I don't find it too easy or too hard to work with that. I try to dedicate provinces for various features, and as the empire grows, of course you may have some duplication but if you need to churn out men you can do it If they are unfinished uber units, don't worry, you'll live. Tatics is more often what carries the day, not supermen

[WorkNeglecter]

Quote[/b] (massamuusi @ July 20 2004,16:06)]Note- when you retrain, you get all the armour/weapon/morale bonuses that units trained in that bonus would get when retraining, also, you keep the previous bonuses, such as valor, unless the unit is below maximum strength, in which case the unit will be reinforced with men that have the valour a new unit trained in that province would have, and the new valour is calculated same way as merging two units.

As far as I know, the MORALE bonus is NOT added in retraining. I have experimented with this, and I have been unable to raise base morale by retraining in provinces with, for example, cathedral or grand mosque.

[Papewaio]

Look at what you use a unit on the battlefield for and go mainly for the upgrades that increase that use.

Spearmen... I like them... I use them as speedbumps that stop the enemy... so they need armour and morale upgrades.

Cavalry... I use them to flank and attack the rear... they do not do well if they get rear attacked so they must strike quickly and get out... so they get sword and morale upgrades.

Bowmen... don't use them often except for defending a province (I take one missile unit in attack to manuveur the enemy)... they need armour for archery duels if they need any upgrade.

Sword/Milita... They are to chomp through the enemy... you either go sword and morale or my preference is armour and morale... armour allows them to ignore arrows and get closer to the enemy... while a sword bonus sans armour is good for the desert.

Playing STW I have tried to see how the various units go by playing purely one type and using upgrades to see which helps. Played pure archer armies with some specialising in armour others in swords and others with morale while have uber elite mix.

Ulitmately in MTW you get a much larger bonus from valour.

Valour = +1 attack, +1 defence and a morale bonus to boot.
A province that gives a bonus to a decent unit is very valuble. Armenian Heavy Cavalry only need minimal facilities to be getting +2 valour.

Generals are the key to getting valour. A half decent 4* General adds +2 Valour. A six star adds +3 valour. So where ever possible nuture your generals up. It is easier and quicker to get a good general then worry about powering up units.

So get quantity (which is a quality all of its own) of a good mix of units and go out and conquer now... tech up later.

[katank]

I find it better to retrain once.

I have a valor bonused province for a unit and then retrain in another for upgrades.

going for master buildings and upgrade can take a long time while having basic buildings of several types in certain provinces can allow for heavy upgrading on a wide selection.

for example, master swordsmith is tough enough to get to without trying to build every upgrade along the way.

also, this way you can always opt for no armo in desert etc.

[Makuri_Dog]

I agree with developing valor provinces straight o master of the appropriate type ecspecially good with cavalry bonus provinces. But i also try to upgrade quickly in any province i get with iro (metal smith) available so later in game can upgrade those units with higher building specs to give better attack, they usually have good armour from there origional province or building specs. But also keep some provinces producing morale only for the desert.

Also don't always retrain like to join up high valour units to make full high valor units,might retrain left overs or if full unit needs upgrade not just for numbers.

unless really rich then build slaughter build slaughter

[katank]

that's why I'm almost constantly at war and I frequently repeatedly combine to make super high valor units and retrain to ensure their survival.