Could the UK have defeated the Nazis on its own

[Papewaio]

Germany certainly had an advantage against Britain alone.

The colonies certainly where behind Britain in a major way... New Zealand had over 50% GDP on the war effort and about 10% of the population served in the forces.

If it was Germany vs British Empire (Japan staying in China) then it would have been hard on the British as it was more spread out. However without having to fight the Japanese it would have allowed the massive British Navy to concentrate in the long term on the Germans. Also more colonial forces could have been devoted to the North African campaign with no Japanese threat.

The issue is though if Germany was solely against the British and concentrated its forces on military targets it could have isolated the British islands and destroyed any effective air cover. This would have then meant all the navy would have to defend against airplanes around Britain. So the British would have lost their airbases then their ports and then their fleet that remained behind. This would have made it relatively easy for the Germans to mount an invasion, all it would take would be the fleet to carry the men across... maybe massive support by paratroopers.

[Tribesman]

What if some of the other Fascist dictatorships had joined with Hitler ?
If Gibraltar was lost and Spanish or Portugese bases were openly available to the German and Italian naval and air forces then Britains links with the majority of its empire would have been impossible to maintain .
Back to subject . Britain may well have held out , but would have been financially ruined and lost her Empire , whereas victory brought financial ruin and loss of Empire , (though in truth it was WW I which bankrupted Britain) .
She would not have been able to defeat Germany militarily by herself in my opinion.
BTW ; Gaelic Cowboy , De Valera did facilitate British requests concerning anti-submarine patrols by flying boats operating out of the six counties , he designated an international air corridor so that the aircraft would not have to fly round Donegal to reach their patrol areas .

[gaelic cowboy]

BTW ; Gaelic Cowboy , De Valera did facilitate British requests concerning anti-submarine patrols by flying boats operating out of the six counties , he designated an international air corridor so that the aircraft would not have to fly round Donegal to reach their patrol areas .

Yeah but Foynes was the really strategic one no coincidence it is the same county as shannon. Lough Erne was where the flying boats were kept but it was a far inferior setup to what could have being achieved at Foynes. Heh sneaky oul Dev another FFer on the fence back the allies but trying to tell everyone at home were neutral sound familar Tribesman yeah good ol Bert.

[fenir]

Eadeater;
1. I Think my previous posting has all but refuted your claims to the "cut off concept" you mention in your post.
All the facts I have entered are able to be easily checked, espeically if you live in London.
The Submarine campaign you mention, failed. the Nazi High command even admitted it. You don't start something with 57 Submarines when you know you need ~350. Remember a lot of those Submarines they started with might have also been only Coastal. Not true u-boats that we tend to think of, eg: Das unter see VII class. I can't remember off hand.

2. The Campaign needed to sink ~750,000 tons of British Shipping per Month!
They never achieved it. This was based on the pre war tonnage of ~22 million tons of British Shipping.
When you add the British, and all the other merchant Marines together, they actually needed to sink something Closer to ~1,250,000 tons per month.
Which they got no were near.

3. The Campaign to cut Britian off failed before the attack on the USSR. I have already showen this.

4. Tribesman, The Portugese have been a British Ally since ~1515AD, it is the oldest continous alliance in the world.
They where openly supporting Britian, with out actually declaring war, i suspect because of General Franco next Door.
But that aside, General Franco had no interest in going to war, as Spain had just suffered a "huge" civil war, that only ended in 1939. They lost alot of people, and their whole country was in ruins. They where far from a threat, and if they had offered bases to the axis, then they themselves would therefore be an extension of Hitlers new Realm. Something that Franco was loth to do, as he was still trying to consolidate his rule in spain, remember spain was still hugely divided, and the civil war had only been over for 6 months or less at the out break of war.
The guy did have the sense to refuse even German and Italian, support and equipment after the Civil war ended, as he feared a nazi inspired take over attempt. Which in the context of the time was probably very real.

5. Papewaio

The issue is though if Germany was solely against the British and concentrated its forces on military targets it could have isolated the British islands and destroyed any effective air cover. This would have then meant all the navy would have to defend against airplanes around Britain. So the British would have lost their airbases then their ports and then their fleet that remained behind. This would have made it relatively easy for the Germans to mount an invasion, all it would take would be the fleet to carry the men across... maybe massive support by paratroopers.

Let me try and answer if you may?

one the isolation never happened, because the germans never had the strenght, that i have already showen.

However, After the defeat in France, Hitler had hoped, and approached the British, to sue for peace on very favourable terms.
As always, once you anger the Anglo-Celtics, it's very had to get them to back down from a fight.

Now some back ground.....
France 1940.
Germans,
~136 Divisions, including 10 new panzer divisions.(concentrated armour).
~2,500 tanks....remembering that the PZkpfw IV had only been out for a short period, and only had a 28.5 calibre 75mm, so it was useless against the British Matilda II, French Char 1 Bis, and Somua s35. And they where only in very limited numers.
3,000 Aircraft. of all types.

French, British, Belgium, Dutch. (The Allies).
~137 Divisions, (94 French, 12 British, 22 Belgium, 9 Dutch). Remember, the British where only nation in the world to have a totally mechanised Army in 1940.
~3,000 Tanks.
~1,800 Aircraft of all types.

NOTE: Another miss Conception, People say the British started the Bombing of Cities, tell that to the Polish in Warsaw, Lodz, etc.., tell that to Rotterdam, etc.... It was Hitler, as he thought by scaring the populus, Governments would sue for peace. Didn't work.

Now we know what happened here, but what is interesting, is how much got away.
Most people seem to think the Germans had it all one way. Sorry, you're wrong. The British Matildas, beat the heck outa Rommel. The French Chars and S35's gave the nazi's a very big fright. They would actually have to bring 88mm Flak guns up to deal with the Matildas, etc... This happened quite a bit, hence the new panzer IV models within ~5 months, and the up gunned pzfKw III with the new 50mm.
And the Hurricanes and D520's of the French, were a scourge on German Aircraft.

Dunkirk, ~338,226 British and French Soliders Evacuated from here, ~110,000 French, and nearly all the British BEF had been taken off.

Now the figures above, are the most often quoted ones, but lets work out what got away from the nazi war machine?

3,000 Taken off at Valery-en-Caux, June 12.
11,000 at Le harve, June 13
30,000 Taken off at Cherbourg June 15-18.
21,000 taken off St. Malo june 16-17.
32,000 taken off at Brest, June 16-17 (port destoryed by allies retreating, French Fleet Sails to Britian, then some to North Africa, some went direct).
57,000 taken off at St. Nazaire, June 16-19.
190,000 taken off at Bayonne, June 19. (also included in this total are Free Polish).
Also an unspecficed amount at Marseilles in the Mediterranean.

Now lets total this.

~682,000 Troops. They also go off alot of equipment.
This is with out all the Different naval vessels and assorted Forces from all the other contries of Europe that had arrived, or where arriving, or to arrive.
Also all the merchant Marines were directed by their respective Governments to head for Britian. Britians merchant marine near Doubled over night, (another factor Hitler Forgot to include)

Now several important facts, RAF still intact. RN, at full strenght, also the largest and most powerful navy in the world, (for still a couple more years.)

Then we can add to this, the oppsite of Hitlers Atlantic Wall, the huge coastal defences of the Southern UK.
On top of this, The entire East Coast of the UK was mined. I mean it was Heavily mined. No shipping here at all. It was also banned.
After Dunkirk, the South Coast became the same. Beach Mining the normal, also only a few areas of southern England are able to support an amphibious assult.

Ok the Ball game.
16th of July 1940, Hitler Orders the Loose waffle, (luftwaffe) to "overpower" the British RAF, in readiness for Operation Sealion. The invasion of the British Iles.

Now lets look at it in the context of the information we have at hand today. Because we can see both sides, as in 1940, they only got to see one side, and guess the rest.

The Losse waffle was actually ill prepared to meet with this new directive.
1. German aircraft, lacked the sufficient range or bomb carrying capicity to mount a major campaign, over a hostile territory, against a well armed adversary.
German Airman, also lacked experiance of this kind of campaign, and most Important! German Fighters lacked range!
German Fighter range was so short, they could only cover a small portion of Southern England, and only for a short time.

(So any bomber outside fighter escourt range, was dog meat. EG: the Losses where so large, that the Germans switched to night bombing British cities The Loose waffle dropped 35,000 tons of bombs, and it cost the Germans 650 Aircraft. A HUGE amount of Aircraft and crews).


This one Key thing, of limited range, allowed the RAF to train, regroup unhindered in the north and northwest, in relative safety.
This is borne out in the ariel combat areas, have a look some time, all the fighting was over the fighter command areas, of A, B, C, D, while a very small amount happened upon areas Z, E, F, Y, and W.
For those that don't have access to this information, it is the areas' covering...
1st Area.
Kent, Surry. Sussex, Hampshire.
2nd area,
Norfolk, Hertfordshire, London, Dorst, Devon, Cornwall, Somerset, up to around Britol.

As you look at this on the map, that is a very small area.
Now the RAF knew this, that is why they trained and regrouped just outside of range, and where they could still defend the southern coast.
The British also had several other facts hugely in favour.

1. Radar, no one knew what it was back then, but they knew the British had it.

2. No other nation Germany had faced so far, had a comprehensive air defence organisation.

3. British Fighter units, had very fast monplanes. most other nations didn't. And they had them in large numbers. The French didn't have many at all. In fact the British Supplied the French with Hurricanes during the battle of France.

4. Every time a German was Shot down, they became a POW. Every time a British Fighter was shot down, they where usually home for tea that evening, and then back in a new Aircraft the following day.( that is providing they survived being shot down, but it was the rule more than the exception, hence the joke of it). The German pilots actually use it as their excuse to Hitler.

5. Hurricane, first went into production Oct 1937.

6. Spitfire in June 1936.

7. Outbreak of war, 497 Hurricanes had been delivered to the RAF, and 310 Spitfires.

8. In the battle of France the loose waffle actually suffered quite badly. So much so that only ~700 German Fighters could be mustered for the july start of the battle fo Britian,, (remember the bf 110 was also still in this total, as it was still considered a fighter by the Germans). That was less than the Combined Hurricanes, Spitfires, and Defiants of the RAF by just a little.
The RAF actually had more fighter aircraft than the Germans, but lacked pilots.

9. In mid to late 1940 lord Beaverbrook, minister for Aircraft Production, would "bully" quite literally, the Factories to produce more. And by mid to late 1940 British Aircraft production for hurricanes and Spitfires, were being produced at ~400 per month. As opposed to German production of Fighters at (usually less than) ~200 per month. This is only an average, as german fighter production actually steadily decreased between July 1940 to decemeber 1940, to less than 100 per month.

10. During the Battle of Britian, RAF fighter Command, actually increased in numbers, while the loose waffle declined in numbers.
To give an exmaple, in july 1940, the loose waffle could field ~700 fighters, by 1st of October, they had only 275. The Ju87, was considered so vulnerable that it was withdrawn a month before hand. because of the losses it had sustained.
From July 1940 to 1st october 1940, the RAF lost 915 Aircraft of all types, the Loose waffle lost 1733 of all types. It was after this, that Hitler order the attention be turned to the USSR, and Operation Sealion, was postponed indefinitly.

11. Another famous folly by the Loose waffle high command. Their "intelligence" reported to Hitler in August 1940 that the task of Destorying the RAF was almost Complete, well, we know from the information we have, that it wasn't so.
British Fighter strenght had actually increased ~20% over that period, while the losse waffle had decreased by a slightly greater percentage.

12. most people seem to think of the Loose waffle coming in and hitting RAF bases all the time, and the RAF simply defending, but they also hit german bases, espeically the loose waffle bases in France and the low Countries during this period as well. So it was back and forth for both sides. It was so bad for the germans that they sent their fighters off to fields, to setup make shift Fighter bases.

13. So you would send paratroopers in aircraft, against an RAF that was stronger than your own air force, and hope they got through? I think the paratroopers would have called in sick that day.
Besides, have a look at the history of the paratroopers, can't remember how to spell it, I think it's flugsjager. They were still in there infancy, and still training, if i remember correctly, they only had a few at this stage of the war, it was another year before Paratrooper were available to Hitler in any number, remember when they took eben Fort and the canals, there wasn't that many of them, thats what made it such a feat.

14. Another key factor everyone seems to forget, the Germans had no naval presence of note. You stated that their fleet would carry them across? What fleet? From memory they had 10 ships greater than destroyer? Thats less than the Home Fleet battleship contingent, with out the Cruisers and destroyers, and then part of the French Fleet, the Dutch and Belgium Fleet ships. Also some Norwegian and Danish, and Polish Ships.
Lets say that during the battle of Britian, August 1940, Hitler believed the loose waffle intelligence, and choose to attack.

Lets see what they would have faced in this decesion.

They would not have had air domination. In fact they where weaker, while the RAF was stronger. They had no navy to support a landing, and suppress the Coastal battries of 15in, 12in, 8in, 4.7in, etc... guns. Or to destory the pill boxs, and coastal defences, the Railway guns guarding the Southern coast, and no mine sweepers to get rid of the mines in the English Channel. Even without the RAF, to me that wasn't looking good.

The RN, RAF all watched for the attack Grouping, and for the concentration of the limited naval units.
Therefore enabling them to bring the Battleships of the home fleet into play.
It would have taken the Germans ~4 to 6 hours to cross the English Channel in the first wave. Remember landing caft are slow, and the English Channel is to shallow close to shore to allow ships. And taking a port directly was out of the question, as the defences would get them, 10-15 miles out.

Thats enough time to bring the Home Fleet into the English Channel and Destroy the invasion before it got to British Soil.

IF, this didn't happen, then with out a shadow of a doubt, the coastal battries would have had a field day. And the Germans a Blood bath.

For an example, have a look at the cost of attacking in June 1944. Look at what was needed D-Day to kill the Defences to get men and material ashore. A hell of a lot! and we still got creamed in some areas.
And they wer'ent even facing a Navy, let alone a navy with lots of battleships, Crusiers...etc with lots of big guns.
Infact they faced no navy! The Atlantic wall had even been neglected, thinking the allies couldn't get in there anyway, and still, look at what it cost?

This is another simple calculation nearly everyone forgets. Britian had a very heavily defended Southern coast. Go and have a look around Dover castle, and along that Coast even today all the way to Cornwall. Even after they have destroyed and taken away alot of the Defenses, there is still a lot there. Have a look at the old gun Emplacement maps. Remember it was every now and again, that British Coastal batteries would open up on Germans in France, 23 miles away! With a 15in Coastal gun.(note: they never did hit anything that was worth much anyway, but still, a bit of fun. Also use Rail guns)

And if you think Germany would have got heavy Equipment over to support their attack, you should have another look at what they had. The largest panzer going over would have been a panzer II in the first wave. The British would have been able to throw grenades at it to kill it.

The Germans in 1940 had no such man power, or equipment, to invaded a Island nation. As von Rundstadt said, in lay mans terms, it was a freckin joke.

Cut Britian off?

Invade Britian?

Have a look at what it takes to mount an invasion by sea against prepared fortifications of the kind the British had. Then Factor in just how tenious the English, Scottish and Irish actually are. Then factor in a RAF gaining strenght, and stronger than the Loose waffle, and then add the RN with it's fleet on the ready.
It was an impossible task.
Sorry but I agree with Von Rundstadt on this, it was bollocks.



PS: Sorry no over whelming facts today, it's nearly all by memory, i just couldn't sleep.

fenir

[gaelic cowboy]

Excellant post thank god we never had to find out really if UK could have done it alone two heads and all that.

[Tribesman]

Fenir ; . It was only a "what if " post , thanks for addressing it though . But as an after thought , the Regia Marina covertly operated out of Spain in their attacks on Gibraltar and the Vichy French overflew parts of Spain when they bombed Gibraltar as well , both violations of Francos' neutrality .

[gaelic cowboy]

Winks and nods all round so it seems in wartime Dev catches pilots who misteriously end up in the north. The US ships weapons on boats to england Franco pretends not to see enemy plane and soldiers operating on his own turf. Stalin and Hitler agree not to kill each other and divide europe together while crossing their fingers behind their backs. The Japanese want to observe all the forms of some kind of 19 century war code inform the enemy blah blah yet behave like animals on local populations winks and nods.

[Bob the Insane]

Great post Fenir, I was looking for those naval figures myself fort the battle of the Atlantic... The impact of the wolfpacks was always over played, basically as stated there where too few u-boats and too many ships to sink.

I am british, half English and half Irish and ex-British Army, so I guess that makes me a little patriotic but I am not daft, defending our island was one thing, defeating the Nazi's in europe was something else entirely...

The primary reasoning for us in the UK selling our souls to our american cousins was to win against germany, not just to hold our little island safe and this is because Churchill knew in the long term we were not safe even if we prevented them invaiding... He made a speach about how we could only ignore what happened in europe if we found someway of towing our island some 5000 miles to the west which is as true today. There was either victory or defeat, no middleground, anything but total victory was a defeat... So even during the Battle of Britain the emphasis was to recuit the USA into freeing europe from occupation and how it was in the USA's own interests...