Increasing Province Loyalty

[ConstableBrew]

I was wondering wether or not garrisons really help in the long run. I understand that having a garrison brings up the loyalty of the population. That improvement is there only so long as the garrison is - very similar to an occupying force subduing the people.

What I am wondering is wether or not increasing the garrison size increases the rate of loyalty improvement or does it simply add x% while the garrison is in the province.

Also, does the % loyalty increase given by a garrison change with varying loyalty levels. I.E. will a garrison of 100 give less of a % increase where the inital loyalty is at 1% than the same garrison in the same province with initial loyalty at 150%?

I am also interested in knowing if rotating garrison troops affects loyalty in any way. For instance, if I have two provinces and I exchange the garrisons in each of those provinces with each other will that be any different than simply leaving the garrisons alone.

Does leaving a garrison in a castle affect anything? I've had generals get the Lazy or Very Lazy vices. It seems that they were always part of a garrison that had sat in a castle for some time.

And finally, does a garrison reduce the loss of loyalty due to high taxes, or does that loyalty loss always occur? If I had a province with loyalty 150% including a garrison of 100 and set my taxes to high, would loyalty drop any faster than if I had no garrison and the loyalty started at 150%?

[massamuusi]

A garrison according to my experience adds a bonus to morale for as long as it is present, not longer. Time is the key, but since you can't occupy the province if the morale sinks, it doesn't matter, you need them. But what it does, it does improve morale, so having bigger armies in provinces allows you to increase taxing accordingly.
Although, with some time, you should be able to have all provinces of same religion (not portugal, scotland) full taxation with one unit as army/garrison. Oh, and having them in or out castle didn't seem to have any difference to me. Could be that I missed something though.

Like said many times before, have all provinces good loyalty to prevent the reappearances (140?)

[nick_maxell]

loyalty depends on garrison size (roughly 10% per 100 men in my experiance but might depend on difficulty setting) - other more important factors are:
dread level of gov. (I think 5% per scull)
fort/border fort (not sure about how much)
and how many share your religion

the 140% massamuusi recommends is on the safe side - start to worry when you are under 120 for an extended time and the ppl have another religion for uprisings. For reappearances I think they actually have to rebel but I might be wrong there)

an important point is that some provinces are more likely to rebel than others (Lithuania and Portugal are very rebellious eg) so you have to keep more troops there than in other provinces to keep loyalty at the same level.

I don t think having troops in or out of the castle has an effect but letting your general or gov sit for too long attracts bad vices (and you get the absentee gov vice if gov isn t there for a long time)

hope that helps



nick

[Maeda Toshiie]

By RabTheRab at .com

Building (happiness bonus):
Town Watch (+10)
Town Guard (+10)
Town Militia (+10)
County Militia (+10)
Brothel (+10/level)
College of Surgeons (+40)
Church (+20)
Mosque (+20)
Monestery (+10)
Reliquary (+30)
Cathedral (+40)
Grand Mosque (+40)
Watch Towers (+10)
Border Fort (+10)

Posted somewhere on the Org (currently taken from .com)
Tax Happiness/Loyalty (using normal = 100% for baseline)
+35% Very low
+20% Low
=== normal 100% ===
-20% High
-35% Very high

[ConstableBrew]

So what are the factors that make the base province loyalty go up over time? Is it a constant that ignores tax rates?


BTW - Reappearances occur when an heir comes of age after the faction was destroyed. I've prevented reappearances by killing off all heirs and the king, except for the youngest heir. Then you kill the new king. This is especially effective if the heir that becomes king is not married. Not married = no children = no reappearances.

[Inuyasha12]

Definetly, you should always have a peasant militia of about 5 units in each province to increase loyalty. The buildings help, but in the long run it's all about the troops, no troops means revolt, almost in all cases.

[Tomassi_Rossino]

Forts help loyalty, at least reduce the chances of a rebellion. When you invade do not suddenly raise taxes. Build Town Militia to police the towns and then when loyalty is about 150 then I'd say you could raise taxes. Keep the number of men in the province above 100. If you are having trouble with taxes just put Auto Tax Manager on.

[ConstableBrew]

Why does it seem everyone is more concerned about the number of men garrisoned in the province than the loyalty level itself? Everyone sounds like they have set upon the idea that X size garrison is mandatory. Why? How? Does any one actually know, or is it just something that most people have found to work well enough to seem to avoid most loyalty problems?

I'm sorry if it sounds like I am whining for an answer. I've read what Doug has posted in another thread, about valuation of garrison troops and loyalty bonuses they provide. However, that doesnt' address my questions as they are more about the algorythm of loyalty. I'll do some research.

[Sociopsychoactive]

In my experience Garrissons and troops in general do NOT effect loyalty in the long run. the loyalty change they cause is the same wherever they go, 10% for 60 troops ect.

What fluctuates the loyalty of provinces is other factors. Buildings and troops both give set bonuses, these effect the base loyalty but the base loyalty itself is effect by loads of other factors, some of which are...

Distance from the province to the king
Whether the province has sea access to the king
Whether the province has sea access to the rest of the empire
Whether the province is succesfully trading
Religion of the province compared to the faction
Excommunication of the king
natural disasters/epidemics
Whether the province shares several borders with an enemy faction, allied or nuetral do not seem to effect much if at all.
Whether the province shares borders with a province of different religion.
Amount of time the province has been held by it's current ruler.
Amount of time the province has been governed by it's current governer
governers dread/vices and virtues
governers piety
provinces zeal rating
Kings dread/vices and virtues
kings piety
Influence of the king
whether the king breaks alliances. (This one may just be speculation, but I've broken alliances without suffering an influence hit or excommunication, and still seen major loyalty changes, without breaking sea routs)
Whether the province has recently rebelled
Whether nearby provinces have recently rebelled, or factions re-emerged nearby
Whether a crusade/jihad is heading for the province
whether the province has good farms
when your empire reaches approximates 60% of the map


There may be many more, and some of those may be incorrect but as you can see it;s a multitude of factors. You see a provinces loyalty shoot up (especially if it was a rebel province) because you have owned it for longer, the governer has governed for longer, the religion is coming into line with your own, you (usually) are setting up sea and trade links, the province is sharing less borders with the enemy (if you are still expanding).

It would be immpossible to pin down changes from all these fators to numbers as they are constantly changing all the time, suffice to say loyalty changes all the time and things that do a standard number increas to loyalty (buildings, troops) do not change the rate at which the loyalty changes, just the numbers at that precise moment.

[Despot of the English]

You can get a revolt if you don't have at least 100 men garrisoning a province. Not sure if this can happen even if loyalty is high though.

[caravel]

Massive garrissons are usually pointless and costly. The only garrisson size that matters is the 100 troop garrisson. Anything above this is only useful for holding down a recently conquered disloyal province to stop it revolting while it adjusts to your rule. Once you've occupied for a few years the population will adjust (and the religion if necessary). This isn't due to the actual size of the garrisson you had there, it's due to your actual occupation of the province. More troops does not increase loyalty any faster, you have to keep them loyal with a large garrissons presence as well as spies and any loyalty improving buildings.

[Blodrast]

Quote[/b] (Beorhtwulf @ July 25 2004,15:43)]Massive garrissons are usually pointless and costly. The only garrisson size that matters is the 100 troop garrisson. Anything above this is only useful for holding down a recently conquered disloyal province to stop it revolting while it adjusts to your rule. Once you've occupied for a few years the population will adjust (and the religion if necessary). This isn't due to the actual size of the garrisson you had there, it's due to your actual occupation of the province. More troops does not increase loyalty any faster, you have to keep them loyal with a large garrissons presence as well as spies and any loyalty improving buildings.

the 100 garrison is pretty much a standard. You do need it because otherwise you will get the bandit type of rebellion, IIRC.
You may need bigger garrisons for the more rebellious provinces, and for deep in-land provinces (distance from the king is very important).
But more troops sure DO increase loyalty. That is exactly how you maintain a decent level of loyalty when you conquer a province: put a lot of troops in there, until they get used to it and you don't need as many troops. But for the initial period (which varies a lot from case to case, as Sociopsychoactive well pointed), that is practically the ONLY way to boost loyalty: lots and lots of troops (peasants are as good as anything else).

And btw, there seems to be a lot of confusion about the loyalty threshold.
You need it above 100% to prevent all but one kind of rebellions: re-emergences. For that, you need it to be above 120%. Pre-VI autotax is set to 100%; VI sets it such that loyalty is always above 120%.

[ConstableBrew]

Sociopsychoactive, Blodrast. Thank you both for you have answered my questions.

[caravel]

Quote[/b] (Blodrast @ July 25 2004,15:19)]the 100 garrison is pretty much a standard. You do need it because otherwise you will get the bandit type of rebellion, IIRC.
You may need bigger garrisons for the more rebellious provinces, and for deep in-land provinces (distance from the king is very important).
But more troops sure DO increase loyalty. That is exactly how you maintain a decent level of loyalty when you conquer a province: put a lot of troops in there, until they get used to it and you don't need as many troops. But for the initial period (which varies a lot from case to case, as Sociopsychoactive well pointed), that is practically the ONLY way to boost loyalty: lots and lots of troops (peasants are as good as anything else).

And btw, there seems to be a lot of confusion about the loyalty threshold.
You need it above 100% to prevent all but one kind of rebellions: re-emergences. For that, you need it to be above 120%. Pre-VI autotax is set to 100%; VI sets it such that loyalty is always above 120%.

That was what I said. But I'm sure the bandits only appear if you don't have a fort in the province otherwise you get no revolt of any kind unless loyalty dips too low.

The only garrisson you usually need is 100 men. As I did say you will need a larger garrisson in recently conquered provinces, but having 800 peasants there isn't going to make the people love you any faster it'll just stop them revolting while you're waiting for them to adjust. As far as I know large garrissons only have affect while they're there, they don't actually add to loyalty on a yearly basis.

[Al Khalifah]

Sociopsychoactive - you listed all the important factors that affect a province's loyalty except the most important one of all. The province's rebelliousness (that's not a word). Every province has a rebellious factor defined in the startpos files ranging from 0 (not very) to 4 (wild). This influences the likelyhood of a revolt and so should give you a guide of which provinces to garrison most heavily or to not bother conquering at all until endgame.

In the early startpos file, all province have 0 rebellious rating except for:

Livonia 4
Portugal 4
Lithuania 3
Prussia 2
Scotland 2
Ireland 1
Khazar 1
Pomerania 1
Serbia 1

[The Grand Inquisitor]

Spies, spies, and more spies. Nothing like them for oppressing the local populace.

Spies are cheap and have a zero maintenance cost. I always have one or two provinces producing spies every turn as soon as I can. I aim to have two spies in every province I control, and four in those 'independantly minded' provinces such as Portugal or Livonia.

Unlike peasant militia, spies will catch enemy agents.

Never overlook the value of strategic agents. A priest,bishop, or alim in every province on the map should be an early goal. They tell you what everyone is doing, and by the time you armies get to those distant provinces, your religious agents have turned the majority over to your way of thinking.

On capturing a province, my building orders are watchtower->border fort. Not only do these increase loyalty but the border fort helps remove enemy agents trying to spread dissent in your lands. Have I mentioned assassins? I like to have two assassins in every province I control to help remove enemy agents.

Then onto a religious building. I then churn out a preacher every turn until it is 100% the right faith. I then move the army of preachers on. Conversion certainly seeems to affect loyalty. Hearts and minds

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] ]the 100 garrison is pretty much a standard. You do need it because otherwise you will get the bandit type of rebellion, IIRC.

It isn't needed to garrison your provinces at all if the loyalty is high enough (above 120? or above 100). I usually leave my governor there to keep the castle in case of rebellions or invasions and to easily find him if needed. I prefer depleted units, a one man garrison is perfect.

[RedKnight]

Hiya Brew Nice name

I went over some highly related stuff here. Please take a look... I don't want to retype a bunch. Still there has been a ton of good stuff here. Thanks for that long list, Socio... whoa And that's probably not everything

Maeda, a couple of corrections if I could - Taxes vs. Happiness (Loyalty) is +25 Very Low, +10 Low, -10 High, -25 Very High, versus Normal. It is the opposite of how much taxes increase income: -25% VL, -10% L, +10% H, +25% VH. You can readily see it in the game (turn off autotax). The income change is best seen with farms - trade has a lot of rounding, but approximates the above. Mine and cathedral income is not affected by tax rate (or anything else, except mine level). Also, in my CRUSADER_BUILD_PROD13 (with MTW/VI 2.01) I see some variances vs. your list in buildings vs. happiness:

Watch Tower +20, Border Fort +30
Church/Mosque +20
Monastery +10
Reliquary +30
Town Watch line: All are +10
Brothel line: All are +10
Cathedral/Grande Mosque +40
College of Surgeons +40

I tested it some in the game; it's easy to do with a QuickSave, then wiping out some buildings.

Increases in a given line are not additive - a Border Fort only adds 10 to what the Watch Tower gives. Additional Town Watch buildings just hold the 10 that Town Watch gave, so they don't add any more Happiness (although at least it doesn't go away). So, Town Watch is all that matters for happiness, in that line. The different kinds of religious buildings are not in the same line, though, so they do add together - a province with church, monastery, and reliquary will be +60 Happiness in total.

It can be a little messy to to understand how loyalty and tax level interact if you use tax collectors and have auto-tax on. This is because (1) different tax levels cause different drops in loyalty (10 or 15, depending on what increase it was, as said above); (2) each peasant increases loyalty by 16.00 to 16.67 (it's 16 2/3rds but is rounded down, so 1 peasant gives 16 but 3 give 50; also as pointed out, a 60-man unit adds 10 loyalty); (3) since a peasant adds more loyalty than is needed for a one tax level (16+ vs. 10 or 15), a peasant might cause two tax-level increases if it wraps around; and (4) auto-tax has a window of 20 loyalty so that the province won't hover around rebellion, which means you have to have 130 or 135 loyalty before it will move to the next tax level (so that the next one will be at 120; it needs 10 or 15 extra, depending on how much the next increase will drop loyalty).

Socio, in a quick test, I didn't find that my happiness changed if I killed my trade building and farms in a province... you sure that they (or income) matter?

I used to have big stacks of peasants, to increase taxes and ward off rebellion, but now I play a lot leaner, only making just enough to not revolt, and only increase taxes if the province income is worth it (see my other thread). Or at least, early in the game... later in a game, it's too much work to fine tune. Right, I don't know why some folks say you always need somebody in each province. I can't recall ever having a rebellion if loyalty was at least 120 (often much more), even with nobody there. Or that you have to have a fort. But maybe I just wasn't paying attention enough. If it does happen, it's pretty rare though, esp. if you usually at least make a fort, and a lot of times I will give a title to a 4-acumen peasant and let him stay in the castle (so I readily know what Lord just went dumb, in the v&v summary).

Still, something stupid could happen with your king or whatever (cough), causing an sudden drop in loyalty, so it can be wise to have some extra peasants laying around. Unless you are really careful and/or micromanage it to death.

Thanks for the tip on spies on your own soil, TGI... I always forget them due to how they take a little effort to make. One of these days I'll try a game where I make plenty... since they have no maintenance, they could be good tax collectors. (Can someone test how much they affect loyalty?) And, using priests as spies on enemy soil is smart... they don't get hit by border forts, yet are both a pain to the enemy and an aid to you (if the province is a different religion).

Constable, you touched on something I've always wondered about - whether peacekeepers accelerate the normalization of a newly-conquered province. That is to say, will 10 peasants for three turns be more effective than 3 peasants for 10 turns? I don't know, but I'll test it some day.

Conquer on

[Sociopsychoactive]

True, it wasn't everything, I forgot one major one.

Having taxes set to very high for a long period of time.

While the loyalty drop is well documented here, it seems to me (and others have noticed it aswell) that having very high taxes for quite a while (approx 20 years) will cause the loyalty to suddenly drop a large amount. It doesn't always, and it isn't a set number of years, but having taxes whacked up isn't likely to make people happy in the long run, aswell as the short term.

As to trading, mines have no effect as far as I know, and sea access is a major one, but whether it's trading or not effects the rate at which it changes as far as I know. I've conquered two provinces at the same time, both with the same percentage of a different religion, both held by rebels, both with sea access and trade goods, both with similar (and crappy) farms and both with no infrastructure at all. In one I built a port and then a trade post, in the other a port and then nothing, they both didn't have a governer and the one that started trading (I already had boats ready) went up in loyalty faster than the other one.