Medieval Mod Economic Fallacies

[Kenseu]

Hey guys, quick question: I've been having fun with MedMod (although there are a few features that annoy me, so I'm looking for other mods to try out. Any suggestions?) but I've recently come up against a problem. I was trying to calculate out each province's potential income value to determine which governors should go where (Got a nifty little .xls file if anyone wants it. It shows all the provinces that border the ocean, and what trade goods they have [In the high age]. All you have to do is fill in whether they have a dock or not, and whether you're at war with them and voila you can calculate it out). I made some calculations, but I wanted to check, so I fired up the game and went to my main money bags, Venice. I wasn't sure how much acumen affected trade goods value (The figure +.5 per feather was in my head, but that worked out to be some astronomical figures.) so I deposed my governor with 9 acumen, and checked the economy of that far swampy city. It was making 42 in export taxes per province it traded with, except for a few that had silk. Now 42 isn't bade when it's multipled by 18, but according the the MM_HIGH.txt, glassware and silk are valued at 30 each. So, I should be making 60 per, right?

I checked out a few things. I'm playing as the HRE, and I know that MedMod uses homelands, so I wondered if that affected it. It doesn't. With no govenor , Saxony makes 19 on grain, which is valued at 25. Another hunch I had was that maybe other ships affect trade? I'm allied with just about everyone and at war with no one, so I've no blockades to worry about. Just to make sure I destroyed all French navies (My long time ally. Since about 1110. It's now 1237) from the North Sea to the Baltic. No change. So, my questions is this: What is up? Is there something I'm missing in the .txt files that changes trade? Is there some sort of conflict here? Am I looking at the wrong information?

I was going to e-mail Wes, but I figured that I'd throw out the question before I bothered the guy. Any help would be much appreciated.

[ah_dut]

i've never really realised the problem, and as far as i know wes is a bit ill at the moment

[Blodrast]

never played medmod, so can't really help you.
all i do know from vanilla mtw/vi is that the price you get for exporting goods depends on several factors:
- the rarity of the goods (which changes in each age)
- the size of your trade building in that province
- vnv's of your king and/or governor of that province

I am not sure exactly what the standard figure refer to, though; i.e., if silk sells for 30, is that computed w/out a governor ? w/ or w/out a trade building ? etc.
I guess some more thorough testing is needed here.

[Kenseu]

If you go to your M:TW:VI folder (Or more precisely, to your Medieval - Total War/Campmap/startpos folder, there are 5 text files, one for each of the time periods and one for the CampMap tutorial. Medieval Mod adds 3, one for each of the Medieval Eras. Inside these files is the non-visual or engine information that the games uses for the campaign map (As far as I know. I'm sure other information affects it). These files tell the game what land masses there are, where the land masses are, what landmasses touch others, what factions there are, what religion the factions are, how the AI factions behave etc. Within these files, there is a specification for the trade goods' value (Not sure if it specifies what trade goods there are. There are some goods that I don't recall existing, like salt, but it could just be that MedMod takes them out of the game.). Now, what I don't get is, if these files tell the game how much the goods are worth, how is it that they're worth less than what the file states, with no (apparent) in game modifiers?

Oh, and for clarities sake I should probably add that I've got a Merchant's Guild in Venice and a Merchant in Saxony.

Another peculiar thing I should mention is that the buildings make income that doesn't equal the amount of money I'm getting from all trade (in that specific province). The buildings are making less than what the province is making in trade, and if I destroy them, my income goes down, but the buildings don't add their income separately from the trade into the province's income. I'm really not getting it. I'm guessing it's come code I'm unaware of (which is basically all) or some modifier I've missed.

[RedKnight]

Kenseu, take a look at my work in modeling province income here (an Excel spreadsheet). It has a lot of cover notes concerning precisely how economics works. Although I haven't played MedMod (yet), I doubt it changes how economics work per se. In any event, it sounds like my info will give you a lot more to work with and compare what you're finding against.

Sure I'd love to see your spreadsheet, post a link or email me, mikestar@speedfactory.net.

Yours in efficient plunder and pillage

[Kenseu]

Not a bad chart. I've got a few qualms, but I can appreciate how annoying it is to go through and get all the information and compile it. I was wondering if anyone had done something like it, so I did a search on these boards and the .com's, but I didn't find anything. My chart is pretty bare bones. It's a calculator more than a projection. You're required to fill in the blanks. And, since I keep on thinking of adding new things and Excel doesn't let you add columns between existing ones, it's a bit rough. It's a real pain after filling all of the provinces in to find that you forgot Ireland. Thank god for cut and paste.

But back to your chart. I appreciate the notion, but unfortunately your chart doesn't really help. I basically understand the principles of MTW's economy. As far as I know, there is still nothing that can reduce the value of individual goods. You can have trade blocked, or trade incompatible (e.i., the same product) but there's nothing that seems to make anything loose value. And I still don't get what is up with the trade buildings not making the same income as the trade is supposed to be worth.

But thanks for the information.

Oh, and I've got a question. Can anyone tell me the per acumen modifier? +.1 per feather, right?

[Papewaio]

Good rule of thumb is 10% more per feather... not sure if Expert has a .8 multiplier or any such difference, but it may have.

[RedKnight]

Governors are 10% per feather, the King is 2% per feather. Steward and Trader virtues add 10% but watch the math; a Great Steward king appears to add 9.1% (not 10%) because he's 10% of the base value (9.1%=1.2/1.1).

It was not real annoying to go through and get most of the info, since most of it was pulled directly from MTW .txt data files, as explained in my ss. I put it in a database and massaged it around. It's testing how the economy works to ensure you have the right formula, that can be trouble. But perhaps that's all you meant. You say you've searched around... did your searches find my stuff? (takes an arrogant bow) But then, if you were always searching relative to MedMod, you would never have found me... I dearly do want to play MedMod one of these days, but am having too much fun with MTW to work on it. I have yet to play VI even, although I have it installed.

I'm not understanding your words about things losing value. They don't, in my experience. However, what can really bite you, is if you haven't closely tracked every single vice and virtue that affected your governors. This game has some very simple things that work together to make a very complex scenario. If you can show me a particular example, perhaps I can help. There are many things that can make the trade not be what it is worth relative to precise figures... how far off are you in worst case, and in median case? Trade suffers from a lot of rounding, since it is based on many small trades. Farming is a much better direct test of econ, then see if trade agrees within the realm of a lot of rounding error. Also I have found my figures to be off by up to 20% as explained in the ss for reasons unknown; some suppose it to be hidden steward virtues that are attached to the province and not the governor (i.e., they continue to apply even if the one who 'earned' them died).

Yours in efficent plundering

[Kenseu]

Papewaio: Yes, I assumed it was that. Thanks for the confirmation.

As for .8 modifier, what exactly to you mean? That on Expert setting, goods are worth .8 (80%) or their original value.

Red Knight: You know, I'm not really sure. As far as I know, my King only has no trade affecting V or V. He might have steward, but I'm not sure. All my provinces seem to be affected, however, so maybe it's an old King's vice that is stil holding sway? I'll check later today, but it's bed time for me.

As for goods loosing value, I should be more clear. What I mean is not that goods are losing value in game (Although I could swear they were worth more earlier), what I mean is that they aren't as worth as much as they should be, according to the .txt's. If Venice sells glass and silk, both of which are worth 30, then I should be making a minimum of 60 per foriegn province, right? So, how am I making 42 per province? If I use the .8 modifier suggested above, Saxony's trade (19 when it should be 25) work out to 76%, which is close to 80, but Venice equals 70%, which is close but a littler farther away. So, I'm really confused.

[RedKnight]

Kenseu, my noble friend, please see the equations in my spreadsheet (Notes, row 33). If Venice sells glass and silk, both of which are worth 30, then I should be making a minimum of 60 per foriegn province, right? So, how am I making 42 per province? Sounds like a bad governor AND king, is that possible? And we could look at the possibility of rounding. Can you list all economics v&vs for Venetian guv and for your king, and their acumen, and we'll work through it. What's the tax rate? What's the merchant-building level? But you've said it's late - get to this tomorrow. Although I might be busy through Monday and get back to you Tuesday, shrug. Anyway. I live to learn I'm wrong, to pursue truth

bows deeply

[Quokka]

The thing you have to remember with trade and income from mines is that 100=52 Florins per year. Trade imports are valued at 20% of their export value.

So Silk and Glassware are both valued at 30 or 0.3*52=15.6 Florins per year. Trade income can be hard to figure as there is a lot of rounding and the Governors and Kings Acumen must be taken into account.

[Kenseu]

Quokka: I'm not exactly sure what you're saying. I'm not importing goods, I'm exporting them. And what do you mean by 100=52? How do you draw that conclusion. And, finally, what's up with your equation? 0.3*52=15.6 I've no idea where you get that from.

As for my king and governors, I should clarify that the income of 42 is without a governor. With a 9 Feather Governor, Venice is making 102 per trade port (On Very High taxes. On normal it's 42 without the governor, 80 with.).

My King has no stats that affect trade or income, as I can see. He's got 6 Influence, 1 Piety, 3 Dread, 2 Command, and 2 Acumen. He's V&V's are Great Warrior, Magnificent Builder, and Irritable. My Venetian governor is a little better. He's got 9 Acumen. The only (direct) income affecting stat is Steward.

I've got a Merchant's Guild in Venice, and, as I stated before, it's income doesn't equal that of the Venice's trade income. It's making 2438 per year. Venice makes 2569 per year in Import/Export. Oh, but I just figured that one out. The docks in Venice are making 131 a year. 131+2438=2569. Well, one mystery down.

But that still doesn't solve the goods problem. And it's not a local problem. All my provinces make less than what they should by default. After looking around, I wondered if Zeal affected it. Venice has 100% Zeal. Burgundy had 51%. Burgundy is making 53 a year in trade with a 5 feather governor. That gave me hope for a second, but on further review, it sells Wine and Wool, and should be making a minimum of 55. And Croatia, which has 50% Zeal and a 4 Feather governor, should be making 30 per province, and is making 19.

So, since I'm provided a lot of information, I'm going to re-cap it all here. (Note: Saxony seems to have changed since my last check. But I've been hitting the End Year button a few times to get spies in place and the like, so that might affect things. Do Famine and floods last more than one year? But I don't think that works, because the numbers aren't halved. They're just random percentages.)

Ruler: Emperor Herrmann II
Influence: 6
Piety: 1
Dread: 3
Command: 2
Acumen: 2
V&V:
Great Warrior: +5 Health
Ireitable: +1 Dread
Magnificent Builder: +10 Happiness to all Provinces, +2 Loyalty to all Generals.

Province: Burgundy
Loyalty: 200% (Normal/Very High)
Zeal: 51%
Religion: 100% Catholic
Income: 888 (Normal), 1021 (Very High).
Farming Income: 483 (Normal), 604 (Very High)
Mining Income: 364 (Normal/Very High)
Trade Income: 41 (Normal), 53 (Very High)
Trade Goods/Value: Wine: 30, Wool: 25
Per Province Trade Income: 41 (Normal), 53( Very High)
Economic Buildings: Trading Post, +80% Farms, Gold Mine Complex, Silver Mine Complex
Governor: Lord von Holstein
Loyalty: 9
Piety: 0
Dread: 4
Command: 0
Acumen: 5
V&V:
Magnificent Builder: +10 Happiness, +2 Loyalty
Highly Educated: +1 Command, +1 Acumen, -1 Piety
Murderous Temper: +2 Dread, -2 Piety
Eager to Retreat: -1 Loyalty, -2 Morale
Captured: +3 Morale, -1 Command
Steward: +10% Agriculture, +10% Happiness

Province: Croatia
Income: 1141 (Normal), 1392 (Very High)
Loyalty: 158% (Normal) 133% (Very High)
Zeal: 50%
Religion: 99% Catholic, 1% Orthodox
Farming Income: 284 (Normal), 355 (Very High)
Mining Income: 260 (Normal), 250 (Very High)
Trading Income: 597 (Normal), 777 (Very High)
Trade Goods/Value: Hides: 25
Per Province Trade Income: 21 (Normal), 27 (Very High)
Economic Buildings: Merchant (w/ Docks), +40% Farms, Copper Mine Complex, Silver Mine Complex
Governor: Lord von Bartige
Loyalty: 9
Piety: 8
Dread: 1
Command: 2
Acumen: 4
V&V:
Greed: +1 Acumen, -10% Happiness
Well Educated: +1 Acumen, +1 Command
Builder: +10% Happiness

Province: Saxony
Loyalty: 200% (Normal/Very High)
Zeal: 53%
Religion: 99% Catholic, 1% Muslim
Income: 1247 (Normal)
Farming Income: 702 (Normal)
Mining Income: 104 (Normal)
Trading Income: 441 (Normal)
Trade Goods/Value: Grain: 25
Per Province Trade Value: 26 (Normal), 36 (Very High)
Economic Buildings: Merchant (w/ docks), +80% Farms, Copper Mine Complex
Governor: Lord van Braunschwieg
Loyalty: 9
Piety: 5
Dread: 1
Command: 0
Acumen: 7
V&V:
Pious: +3 Piety
Perversion -4 Piety
Magnificent Builder: +10 Happiness, +2 Loyalty
Affable: +3 Acumen, +30% Happiness
Steward: +10% Agriculture, +10% Happiness

Province: Venice
Loyalty: 100% (Normal/Very High)
Zeal: 100%
Religion: 100% Catholic
Income: 2806 (Normal) 3649 (Very High)
Farming Income: 805 (Normal), 1062 (Very High)
Mining Income: 0
Trading Income: 1955 (Normal), 2587 (Very High)
Trade Goods/Value: Glassware: 30, Silk: 30.
Per Province Trade Value: 80 (Normal),106 (Very High)
Economic Buildings: Merchants Guild (w/ Docks), +80% Farms
Governor: Lord von Lothringen, Imperial Chancellor (+3 Loyalty, +1 Command, +1 Acumen)
Loyalty: 9
Piety: 7
Dread: 1
Command: 2
Acumen: 9
V&V:
Magnificent Builder: +10 Happiness, +2 Loyalty
Retreats Often: -1 Loyalty, -4 Morale
Most Charitable: +20 Happiness, +1 Piety
Master of Number: +3 Acumen
Fanatic: +40% Zeal, +1 Dread
Steward: +10% Agriculture, +10% Happiness

[Quokka]

Quote[/b] ]Quokka: I'm not exactly sure what you're saying. I'm not importing goods, I'm exporting them. And what do you mean by 100=52? How do you draw that conclusion. And, finally, what's up with your equation? 0.3*52=15.6 I've no idea where you get that from.

The base value for income is 52 Florins per year (1 a week? I don't know)

If you look in the BUILD_PROD file you will see in Column 23 Income generated by this building. Copper is rated as 100,200 and gives respectively an income of 52 and 104 Florins. The Cathedral and Grand Mosque are also valued at 100 and also generate 52 Florins. This is what I mean by 100 = 52 Florins.
Glassware and Dyes are both valued at 30. Thus they generate 30% of the income that a Copper mine would, which is where the equation came from and not the flat 60 that you thought.
So both goods instead earn 15.6 Florins a year which will be rounded to a total of 32 combined. The rest is scaling due to the Merchant Building and unfortunatley I don't know exactly how that works.

[Kenseu]

Bingo, that's what I'm looking for. Thanks for the help guys.

Okay, I now how one more question, even it it probably can't get answered. What the heck is up with those percentages? Why doesn't 100=100? It just doesn't seem to have a purpose....

Again, thanks to everyone for their help.

[RedKnight]

Hiya Kenseu, I was away for a while.

All the numbers are also explained in my spreadsheet, which is why I referred you there. The only factor that matters from King and Governor are acumen, and virtues that affect income. However some things work indirectly - e.g. Dread and Happiness let you increase taxes, which increases income. Anyway take a look at the spreadsheet, which includes an explanation of the equation used. Quokka has explained some of it, but it should make it even clearer.

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