Fighting the Byzantines

[HicRic]

I'm playing a GA game on Expert difficulty. The Byzantines were winning, so I decided to knock them down a peg or two. However, I was in for a nasty shock.

I have never encountered another factions army with the strength of the Byzantines. I find them impossible to beat; none of my conventional tactics or ideas work I need some advice.

Bascially, this is what happens:

Byz Infantry and Vangarian Guard run up to my lines from the start and smash into my front ranks. Whether or not they charge spears or swords, they tear through them in short order, even when I have two points of valour above them. I'm using Chivalric Sergents and Men At Arms, by the way. I've even pinned Vangarian Guard with spears from the front and then slammed 40 feudal knights into their rear-and they just kill my spears AND turn and kill my knights And don't get me started on Katanks. I can't kill them, period. Spears all around do nothing. Spears in the front and knights/swords in the back-nothing

I've tried deploying Pav Arbs in my front line to shoot them as they march up-but they just march fast up to my lines and charge straight away The Pavs just get two volleys off and then have to fall back to avoid being charged.

I am at a loss of how to counter them. I can take on any other faction's army with these men, and win What should I do against the Byzantines? Anyone, help a poor fool, please.

Oh, and my typical army facing them consists of 4 pav arbs, 4 Chiv Sergs, 4 CMMA and a couple of feudal knights. It's mostly Katanks, Vangarian Guard and Byz Infantry I'm having trouble with.

[Chimpyang]

Conventional warfare really doesnt work against the Byz, the Katanks are easily dealt with, just get some horse archers (pref decent ones such as Turcoman Horse, Boyars, Szlezky) and give them the run around, if using HA isn't you style, then try including some JAv's in your lineup, although short on ammo the Javs can do some REAL damage to the heavily armoured Cav. As long as there's a pinning unit to hold the Katanks.

As for the Vang guard, they're tough nuts to crack, but using armoured units is the worst thing to do. I reccomen concentrating missile fire on them, then pinning them wit ha highish valour unit before sending some AP unit (militia seargents, billmen) to inflict some damage. Any spare cav you have can be send into the Byz inf. If they are as low valoured as you say, you cav should do lots of damage to the swordsme. But always support the cav with your melee units to encircle the engaged units and to protect the cav's flanks. the Byz inf's morale isn't great but by playing it on expert you need all the davantages you can get as the AI has a morale bonus in battles but as soon as one unit starts routing others may follow.

Also, going for the gen is a good idea as the morale hit incurred is enough to offset the Ai's advantage.

[Kommodus]

By playing as the Byzantines, I learned about some of the Byzantine army's weaknesses. Basically, they are very weak against cavalry. Thus, you might want to modify your standard army - lose some of those infantry units (particularly the spearmen) and load up on cavalry.

It sounds like you're playing as a Catholic faction, so be sure to bring some heavy Catholic knights with you. They will be able to chew through Byzantine infantry with ease. However, do not take on Varangian Guard with your knights, except to deliver a final charge against an already-weakened unit. VG will take losses against knights, but their excellent combat stats will eventually give them the victory. The only weaknesses of VG are that they are slow-moving, and usually do not appear in large numbers. Thus, try to isolate the VG, deal with the rest of the army, and then swamp the VG with armor-piercing units, like some good polearms. VG have excellect morale; expect them to fight to the last man and inflict significant losses on your troops.

Against Kataphracts, polearms are effective, as others have pointed out. Also, Catholic knights heavier than feudal knights can defeat them most of the time, especially if you support them with something else. Kataphracts are slow-moving for cavalry and vulnerable on the flanks; try using the superiority of your own cavalry's mobility to outmaneuver them in a cavalry battle. If you are attacked by a cavalry-heavy Byzantine army, try defending in the woods with polearm troops.

So basically, you need to modify your army. Instead of swords/spears/archers/medium cavalry, you should load up on heavy cavalry and polearms. I should note that halberdiers will mop up both Byzantine infantry and Kataphracts, but they will lose against VG. Spearmen will probably be almost completely useless, since they will be easily beaten by Byzantine infantry and VG. Catholic swordsmen will also have a tough time, since they will be significantly outnumbered by Byzantine infantry and outmatched against VG and Kataphracts. Armor-piercing missile troops can be useful, but only if they get a chance to shoot for a while. Your traditional army stands little chance; adapt and live

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (Chimpyang @ July 20 2004,17:10)]As for the Vang guard, they're tough nuts to crack, but using armoured units is the worst thing to do.

In general, using armored units to deal with armor-piercing attackers is not the worst thing to do... As the armor goes up, so does the defense, whereas the armor piercing attack goes up only a fraction of a point for each extra armor point.

To explain: a +4 golden armor feudal man at arms has +4 defense whereas a varangian guard will have only +2 attack against the more armored feudal swordsman - thus, the feudal man at arms with no extra armor will actually fare worse against a unit like varangian guard than the higher armor version of the same unit.

The situation is a bit different for the 'generic armor' of the units. Since, in this case, high armor is not always matched by extra defense. An example could be halberdiers who have super-high starting armor with no matching defense stats.

--

As to byzantines: their key strength usually lies with high-star generals. Variangian guards have good stats but nothing breath taking unless coupled with a 9 star general with virtues that boost morale... My tactic in dealing with byzantines: load up on missiles. Even vanilla archers when in high numbers (6 units and more) on a hill slope can take out an approaching kata general in a few volleys. Once the stat-boosting general is gone, byzantines are highly likely to rout even if charged by slav warriors (byzantine infantry has very low morale to start with).

As to varangians: I shoot them down the same way as the kata generals.

[desdichado]

I notice you are using feudal knights. I rarely use them as I don't think their worth the price. Get some Chiv knights asap and dismount them. Throw them at the first Kats that come close enough and watch them chew them up.

I would use them same tactic I use against the Golden horde - I target their heavy cav as much as possible in every battle. Even if it means I have to withdraw from battle I don't mind losing if I can weaken them. The Byz don't seem to produce overwhelming numbers of either kats or VG and if you can wipe most of them out the byz infantry will be easy to deal with by themselves.

[econ21]

Varangians have caused me fits, but as has been said - their numbers are finite. Just mass arbalester fire on them to kill them as quickly as possible. Remember you can afford to lose a wave of troops, even some battles to thin their numbers. Arbalests and CS etc are two a penny & often are ransomed back after the battle. VG are rare and the arbalester bolt takes no prisoners.

Kats are rather less daunting. They do not stack up very well against Chivalric Sergeants, but your spears will be very vulnerable to Biz foot and you'll need a good general to bolster morale. Halberdiers are pretty solid units against heavy cav and are not so vulnerale to swords. You need AP stuff to kill kats reliably and your standard army appears to have none.

Your CMAA swords should be able to beat Biz infantry one on one, even on expert. The problem is the 100 to 60 quantitative edge. Make sure they are in a thin, eg double, line so that you are not enveloped and try to flank them with your knights.

[katank]

agreed, attrition is likely something you can afford more than them.

I don't agree with the evaluations of combat comparisons as the Byz gen will give so much bonus that often the Byz inf will get +4 attack, +4 defence (they have 8* and 9*'s) and will totally destroy your CMAA

[HicRic]

Fortunately a good Byz general is something they have in short supply-the armies I'm looking to defeat are only one/two star generals. I'll be taking plenty of advice you guys have given me, though-I was just surprised when my armies finally came up against something they couldn't beat.

I think another problem I have with that army is the lack of units, namely, only eight units that can fight in melee. When you add the fact that the Chiv Sergs aren't all that good against the likes of Byz Inf and those VG I guess that's why I'm losing. I'd love to be able to shoot down more of these units, but unlike everyone else (am I seeing a trend here? ) they tend to just march up to just outside of arb range and then charge at my lines, so I don't have the time to kill many of their men with missiles.
I'll definately see about changing my armies that are facing them. I woudl use Chiv Knights, but I'm playing as Denmark, and I had some income troubles to begin with. These are solved now, but I'm a bit under developed. So I can't build them yet. Almost can, though

VG? One of the armies has 3 units of them Nasty. I'm definately going to try some Chiv Foot Knights ASAP, too. The horse archer idea against Kats is a good one, alas playing as Denmark I'm not in a position to build any yet.

Thanks for all the help guys.

[econ21]

It's too late now, but if you are playing with VI, in early Denmark get Huscarls which are pretty much the same as VG and a war winning unit. Just something for next time.

[RollingWave]

Mass cav helps... and in campaign i usually just use normal arbalest with 1 valor instead of pavised once without it....

And in terms of campaign... basically try to take a hint or two from the art of war..... avoid their strong point and hit their weak... use ships and try to creat a front far from their main bulk..... try to kill armise led by poor generals and isolate strong generals then kill them with overwhelming numbers etc.... use a lot of agents... mass coverte their provinces and send spies into once without border forts... soon their empire will collapse under massive rebellions... spy on all their top generals and their emperor to give them assainator vice etc....

[katank]

massed arbs with trash to tie them up is good.

have you tried using halbs? loads of halbs on hold hold can hold out for a while and you massed arbs behind can mow the enemy down.

this is best done if you have a slope you can park your arbs on and get the halbs at the base.

[Si GeeNa]

I've always used HA type of units against the Byz to great advantage. One particular unit that has always been severely underrated is the Mounted Crossbow.

These guys have AP missles. This means that taking out the Katanks or VGs will be less of a headache. Only issue has always been their Rate of Fire.

Playing the Turks in Early, I've always mustered Turcoman Horse and AHC for Byz fight. I might go it with a 1:2 disadvantage due to their Byz Inf, but the flexibility of the Horse units will more than compensate for the lack of numbers.

The best way to wield a Horse-heavy army is to forget about fixed lines. Use the Turcoman Horse to taunt for a good fight. Once the unit is drawn forward, the AHC should co-ordinate in Time and Space to converge on the isolated unit.

VGs don't stand up to AHC charging from 3 diff directions. They get smashed.

[HicRic]

I'd only built about four huscarles in my Early stage-I was going to build more, but when I got around to it, early had finished. I didn't realise I wouldn't be able to build them after that.

RollingWave, why not Pavise Arbs? They take many less casulties as a result of that shield (from missiles, anyway).

I've actually never built halbs before. I'm definately going to have to have a look at my tech tree and build some of them (This is only my second game, so I've not memorised it yet. )

I'd love some horse archers, but I'm in no position to build them yet, due to the fact I'm Denmark and only have some northern provinces.

Right, I'm off to try out some things on them-I'll let you know how things turn out.

[Daveybaby]

You can very often find a unit or two of mounted crossbows available to hire as mercenaries. These guys can be VERY useful against the byz, not only for taking out katanks, but also to generally harass their foot soldiers and (hopefully) stagger their attack, so that your massed arbs can concentrate fire on one unit at a time.

[Armchair Athlete]

If you are fighting in the high period then dismounted chivalric knights make short work of everything the byzantines have to offer. Easy way to get some is just build royal knights (and dismount them). Its a small unit, but can chew through katanks fairly easily, and also defeats VG and byz inf. One tactic I do is build about 6 units of these guys, dismount them and send them in first against any Jedi Byzantine Generals. They will be defeated, but will inflict heavy casualties on the byzantines, and also stand a chance of killing the commander, as when faced with a small army the Ai tends to go stupid and send their cav way out in front with no back up. In early period, well its much harder, but massed archery focus firing on the General is probably the best bet. Javelins are also good (if you have Spanish Jinettes, use them. I often bribe El Cid as soon as i can, no matter which faction I am playing, just to have a province that can build Spanish Jinettes and also gain a cool general).

[katank]

jinettes are catholics and russians only.

pav arbs aren't that great in field battles due to horribly slow speed in withdrawing to bring on reinforcements or reinforcing.

they also are slower than just about anything.

HA and jav combo is awesome against Byz. learn to use these extremely difficult to use units and you can win.

[HicRic]

Well, Pav Arbs may be slow but they can really slaughter anything you can throw at them-and besides, I just keep them close to my army. When they try and charge them, they fall back and my lines just close on the enemy instead. I'll admit that the likes of HA and Javs will probably work very well-but I'll only be getting them as mercs, and I don't have many inns set up.

It looks as though Byzantine won't be posing too much of a threat in my current game for much longer. I've "taken steps" to ensure they don't continue on their rampage across the map. I seem to have "accidently" raided two of their back provinces, killing both a king and an heir. Their current king is in a province all on his own...suffice to say the royal line is taking quite a beating. I've also managed to beat them a couple of times with my slightly-dodgy armies, so I should be okay.

Oh, on a slightly related topic, I was looking at my tech tree, and the Halbs are limited to two factions? Irritating, I wanted to be able to build them, rather then hire them. Well, I guess I can afford it.

[katank]

arbs do just as good a job most of the time and when you need to swap due to out of ammo, they are a lot faster and thus leaving you less time in the lacking any missiles limbo mode which really sucks against the horde.

how's halbs restricted to two factions? they are all catholics and russians.

[RollingWave]

From a campaign point of view....

When you can build pavised arbs (master bowyers) you can either build v1 arbs or v0 pavised arbs.... v1 arbs are better archers ... that's not even begining to figure in the slow speed's effect on positioning and the effect of fatique etc... (heavier armor = tire faster = shoots less effectie etc...)

Pavise arb's only advantage over arbs is the fact that they are the king of archer duals... but it's not like arbs are sissies in archer duals or anything... being high range high damage and pretty high defense for a archer... they beat most other archer anyway....

All i'm saying is... i find that in campaign that normal arbs tend to be more tactically and stratigically flexible.

Byzantian woulda acturally been pretty hard if the force wasn't with them XD.... (that and mass merc abuse) they start with a lot of border and very little troops/production capabilities... (they have one province that can produce most things but all the other province will take a while to get thigns going)

Anyway... the key to beating large empires in later game is usually agents and ships... try to collapse them from within (either with religion or spies etc...) and hit where they don't have much of a garrision (which is easy when u control the sea)

[HicRic]

Does fatigue and valour really affect archery effectiveness? I didn't notice that before. Cool.

Thanks for all the help you guys have given me in this thread. It's been a great help.

A round of drinks for all

[katank]

no problem. shooting tires the archer and explains why some HAs can't outrun slower cav after a while which can't be accounted for by just the motion. fatigued pavs can be overrun by anything.

inherent missile valor improves accuracy.

[Daveybaby]

Quote[/b] (katank @ July 22 2004,16:24)]shooting tires the archer and explains why some HAs can't outrun slower cav after a while which can't be accounted for by just the motion.

Heh, yeah... those poor horses get really tired from all of that shooting, probably because its difficult to operate a bow when youve only got hooves

One thing pavs are very good for is just sitting there soaking up arrows. Sometimes if i'm facing a LOT of archers (like last night vs the horde - well over half of their army was mongol warriors, with the most of the rest being MHC and HA) i just leave them out front even if theyre out of ammo and just let them soak up the arrows that would otherwise be aimed at my spearmen and archers.

A bit cheesy, really.

[HicRic]

Oh, I wouldn't say it was cheesy. The whole point of armoured units (or this case, Pavise) is to help soak up arrows. If they're going to be stupid enough to shoot at Pav Arbs with their arrows, it's their fault.

[Ranges]

IN a campaign with the english i used the following setup against the byz:

first attacks: softening the enemy
Simply use Steppe Heavy Cav.. These guys are average in combat, but good archers.. And fairly easy to get in Kiev (and if you're going to stop the horde, you might want kiev anyway).

After softening up

Phase 2: Hurting Them.
An army of.. Surprise 8 steppe heavies, 8 knights ( i used chivs, you could try feudals, should work). Simply harass them with your steppe heavy cav, and charge any isolated unit (the dumb one that chases you..) with say.. 4 knights:?? *smirks* They die. To the man.

This is a very cautios, micro managing approach, but it allows you to kill huge amounts of the usually slow (or lightly armed) byz with few casualties on your side.

Just remember to withdraw before they pin you down.. And try again the next turn.. :)

Good luck