What is every one view on if the Mongol empire did not fall when it did, maybe it would still exist today, but it would probably be much smaller, kind of like what happened to the Soviet Union with some of its states breacking away.
I'm just wondering what every body thinks on this topic. stuff like If Ogedai didn't die when he did, or Ariq-boke won the civil war bettween him and his brother Kublai.
hmmm, I don't know what your talking about. Mongol still exists today united, though much smaller and much weak.Originally Posted by [b
I mean the empire as a whole not just Mongolia or the nations after it completely disolved. I'm talking about a long lasting Mongol Empire and it's effects on history.
I can't get much too specific about Mongolian history because I don't have MI, but I think it would have been impossible for any one man to control the vast territory. Besides, the Mongolian purpose was not to have a permanent government or dynasty and set up a trading post to trade with neigboring nations, while settling down.
I think that was there goal, why else would Chingis khan(?Ghengis Khan) come up with laws to rule by, or why would they promote trade through out there empire. As for one person ruling such a vast teritory, I believe it could be done.
who knows...much like the butterfly effect...
one army reaches the field a day early...one leader lives one day longer...
might change lots of things...
pillage, plunder, burn...
1. Most of Europe would have been conquered and occupied, the Pope would probably be suffocated to death.
2. The mongol empire would eventually split up (as in history). Tribal ties are still strong among them even after Genghis Khan united them.
3. After long term garrison duties and living in urban areas, the general level of competence of Mongol armies would only go downhill.
Possibilities:
1. Mongol civil war
2. Massive internal rebellions (eg. fall of Yuan in China)
3. Religious wars. (Mongols in Europe convert to catholicism, while those in the Far East are buddhist.)
In the end, the mongols would retreat back to the steppes. There would be no Russia that we know of. Instead the Mongols would (probably) for their own nation there.
Keeping the ashigarus in line since 1575
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Let's take a quick snap at what really happened to the branches of the Mongol Kingdom;
The Golden Horde transformed into a Qibchaq-Turk state, and then states. They started to speak Turkish as first language and gradually gave up the Genghis Law.
The Il Khans, though resisted in their Mongol identity for longer, devolved into local Turkic/Persian dynasties.
Kubilai'i descendants became the Yuan dynasty of China, Chinese in all respects but blood.
The Mongol hordes located in Western Turkestan, though preserved the Genghis Law for longer than any, adopted Turkish dialects and amalgamated with the urks and other locl population to give way to the folks of modern peoples inhabiting there. The outblow of Tamerlane was an offspring of the Chaghatai branch but already speaking Turkish...
In summary, wherever they went, they gradually dissimilated into the local cultures/populations and became the integral elements of their new habitats, no more retaining their initial identities but contributing many elements of it. They had to, because they were always a minority (population-wise) wherever they invaded.
Therefore, little would have changed if they continued their march westwards or in other directions. They might have flamed for longer, but would eventually die out like they did.
_
Ja mata Tosa Inu-sama, Hore Tore, Adrian II, Sigurd, Fragony
Mouzafphaerre is known elsewhere as Urwendil/Urwendur/Kibilturg...
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If they had survived longer we wouldn't be as far advanced as we are now.
Really this is the same question as what if Alexander the Great hadn't died at such a young age?
The Mongol Empire was based on militarianism and was built on nomadic foundations. While laws may have been put down to try and create the possibilty of a one day civilised Empire, as with all empires based on militarianism, as soon as the empire is no longer able to expand (either due to the inefficiency of central government over a large area) it will eventually die or split apart. The Mongol Empire already had begun to do this before it lost its recognisable form.
The Mongol Empire also had great cultural dillution into many different cultures and so either a very multi-cultural advanced society could have developed or the different cultures would be intollerant of one another and would have engaged in wars of annihilation with each other.
Either way, the Mongol Empire would not have survived more than a couple of centuries in any recognisable form.
Cowardice is to run from the fear;
Bravery is not to never feel the fear.
Bravery is to be terrified as hell;
But to hold the line anyway.
1)As soon as Ghengis bought the farm the Mongol Empire was gone. Why? It was split up, it had been successful because Ghengis had united them. So they started fighting each other to gain supremacy and couldn't go outward.
2)There weren't many Mongols(look at Mongolia small place), they just couldn't repopulate.
3)Ghengis's goal was China, he never achieved that goal(his sons did though). There was no I want to build a utopia it was &@#%^* Chinese, they keep pushing us around then his sons were for power.
Sometimes I slumber on a bed of roses
Sometimes I crash in the weeds
One day a bowl full of cherries
One night I'm suckin' on lemons and spittin' out the seeds
-Roger Clyne and the Peacemakers, Lemons
as said they'd just have civil wars and the muilatary would start to slide, and they'd have to retreat to the steppes or die. or amalgate into the locals anyway. diluting the mongol power.
Mouzafphaerre is right tho, while they excelled at defeating the armies of other nations, because of their nomadic nature as soon as they settled down to ruling, not conquering, they slowly but surely stopped being mongols, and became a minority group (ruling minority in china for a while) who eventually just became another part of the cultuire they had defeated.
The chinese were perticularly good at this, while I don;lt recal the exat dates and such they were invaded and conquered several times, and ever time the invaders slwly became a part of the chinese culture, rather than replacing it. This is on part because they were so advanced for the tiem, but also because they didn;t seem to mind being conquered, taxes might be high for a while and the rulers change, but the people carry on doing what they had been for years before, no matter who says they are in charge.
As for mongols ruling, well, if ghengis had carried on west, the roman empire would have fallen before him, that is very likely, and the pope would not have susrvived, at least not as the pope, but the mongols would soon have been learning latin, living in houses rather than huts and the glorious mongol empire would soon have been nothing more than a memory. yes, the implications on russia would have been dire, but even they would have probably absorbed the culture of the mongols into their own, and long term changes would have been slight.
I was trying to find some help in the ancient military journals of General Tacticus, who's intelligent campaigning had been so successful that he'd lent his very name to the detailed prosecution of martial endeavour, and had actually found a section headed "What To Do If One Army Occupies A Well-Fortified And Superior Ground And The Other Does Not", but since the first sentence read "Endeavour to be the one inside" I'd rather lost heart.
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