Baffled - Armenian Heavy Cav loses to Treb Archers

**Colovion** · 08-05-2004, 02:38

I see that the enemy has some treb archers, I don't want them to be a frustration so I bring some Armenian Heavy Cav along to help out. For some frea reason the Treb archers start apart from their main army on a small hill. I think "awesome! attack!" and charge my Horse up the hill.

I got slaughtered. I killed one archer.

How is that in any way possible?

PS - I used the wedge formation and they were 3 deep. I totally bowed their formation but it didn't break. Valour?

**CBR** · 08-05-2004, 02:48

Valor can mean everything. Even treb archers can be very powerful if valor was high enough. And you were charging uphill which would give them something too.

CBR

**Si GeeNa** · 08-05-2004, 02:53

If you used only wedge throughout the melee, you might have suffered greater disadvantage. I always switch to Close formation after the charge is home. Usually, my cav is 2-3 men deep. So as they form up in Close, they can form into quite a long line.

But of course all this count for scratch if you have not enough valour. I trust the Trebz were not in forest.

Trebs have quite good melee for archers.

**makkyo** · 08-05-2004, 02:59

Originally Posted by Si GeeNa

Trebs have quite good melee for archers.

I learned this that hard way. A similar thing happened with some of my inf (the name is excaping me right now).

**Colovion** · 08-05-2004, 08:32

If you used only wedge throughout the melee, you might have suffered greater disadvantage. I always switch to Close formation after the charge is home.

Yeah I did that - no dice. - but I realized that the Horse were zero valour. I tested it with Horse at 2 Valour against their 3 valour and I broke them on first charge, slightly uphill.

**Sarnaen** · 08-05-2004, 09:07

Hehe, another caught by the Trebizond mantrap.
Trebizond archers are amazing all-round infantry. In my Byzantine armies, I take 4 Byzantine Infantry, 4 Trebizond Infantry. The Trebizonds unleash hell with their bows, then fall back behind the Byz Inf and form wedges (as this maximises their unusually high attack), ready to flank. When melee is joined, the Trebizonds flank, the Cavalry (Usually 2 Byz Cav, 2 Kataphraktoi) sweep around the edges and crush everything else through a mixture of horse archer and Knight tactics.
They're a nasty surprise for someone who isn't expecting them, and should be treated more like Janissary infantry than archers. They're not as good as Janissaries, but they're still a very tough collection of men, and more common.

**Nowake** · 08-05-2004, 09:11

Originally Posted by Colovion

I see that the enemy has some treb archers, I don't want them to be a frustration so I bring some Armenian Heavy Cav along to help out. For some frea reason the Treb archers start apart from their main army on a small hill. I think "awesome! attack!" and charge my Horse up the hill.

I got slaughtered. I killed one archer.

How is that in any way possible?

PS - I used the wedge formation and they were 3 deep. I totally bowed their formation but it didn't break. Valour?

Just as a side note, the wegde formation is only godd when you want to sneak your unit through tight coridors between enemy lines, not effectively charge. The masse is much more effective in a line .. matter of common-sense

**Sarnaen** · 08-05-2004, 09:17

I actually find it works quite well when hitting an enemy who's formation has been disrupted by the Byz Inf. They're already curving one way or another, and at the right angle, you can get several men into contact quickly, keeping the charge bonus. Then I switch to closed and surround. Seems to work well for me.

**CBR** · 08-05-2004, 12:20

Ah the Trebs had valor 3 while your cav was valor 0? That and uphill position would explain it.

Charging in wedge like that is not the best way to do it really. Your cav has a charge bonus and with so few men actually hitting the enemy you dont get so much out of the charge as you could have.

CBR

**Blodrast** · 08-05-2004, 21:40

to be more specific: wedge is probably the worst thing to do, since you get +2 Attack and -2 Defence. Since Trebs have a good attack to begin with, and vanilla AHC don't have a remarkable defence...and as people mentioned, charging uphill and the valour difference...disaster.

Edit: sorry, Katank is right. I switched the bonuses in my mind by mistake: wedge is +3/-3, hold is -2/+2. Thanks, Katank.

**katank** · 08-05-2004, 23:32

wedge is +3 attack and -3 defence while hold would yield -2 attack, +2 defense.

attacking uphill down 3 valor is a very bad idea especially since they have 3:2 numerical advantage.

I feel sorry for your cav.

**Pendaran the Sword** · 08-05-2004, 23:57

I use 4 valor trebs online to deadly effect.

**Maeda Toshiie** · 08-06-2004, 03:02

Originally Posted by Colovion

Yeah I did that - no dice. - but I realized that the Horse were zero valour. I tested it with Horse at 2 Valour against their 3 valour and I broke them on first charge, slightly uphill.

1. Next time, check the number of little triangular flags on the units. The number of them indicate the valour of the unit. Of course, if there arent enough men, some of the flags wouldnt appear.

2. Check the rank of the general in command. Kata princes have a lot of stars

3. I only train v2 AHCs out armenia with master horse breeder. Otherwise they are quite useless.

4. When dealing archers, draw them down the hill (usually with HAs) and then hit them from both the front and the rear. Often enough to break their morale. However, at expert, this may be a little more difficult.