Order Foot in early

[Tamur]

hi all,

I've been wondering for, well, a long time -- is there anything that can beat Order Foot Soldiers in early? I've tried flanking cavalry charges while they're pinned by two units of Feudal Men-At-Arms, pinning with Feudal Sergeants and hitting them in the back with FMAA's, targeting them with two units of archers...

Eventually I can get them to rout, but by the time they do they've mauled three or four of my 100-man units.

Suggestions?

Tamur

[Kagetora]

Order of Foot soldiers are a high moral unit, usually when I play as the Italians, I just use Italian light Infantry and they get the job done, but if you dont have them, than you just hav to pin with a spear unit or you can use Feudal foot knights, you have to mod to get tham though, but I think Fuedal Knights can dismount. You should try to rout everything around them anc encircle them. Feudal seargents are your best bet to use as a pinning force. However, if you put shot after shot of arrows on them it can do alot of damage especially if the arrows are from crossbows. try to get thme to mix up their formation a bit by sending a Cav charge at them follwed by some infantry or another unit of Cav, if the order of foot soldiers are turning or moving, they lose the formation bonus which will make it easier to kill them.

[Sociopsychoactive]

But there are no crossbows in early!

There is, however, a way. Javlins.

Javlins are easy to get (everyone can get slav javlin at least if you have the right provinces) and cut through order Foot's extramly high armour in moments. The best way i would think is pin with FMAA, get javlin to the flank or rear to wear them down alot, when all your javlins are gone charge in with a unit that ha AP attack, say militia seargents, woodsmen at a pinch but preferably something bigge like swabian swordsmen (german and swabia only) viking units (all the good ones have AP) or similar.

usin cav is not the way to go because even out of formation OF have big bonusses against cav, and as they're moral is sky high you'l never get them to rout on a cav charge, which is usually the way cav charges work best. Crossbows or arbs would work pretty well to soften them up, but sticking to early it has to be javlins. Maybe use a good sword unit or three to pin instead of FMAA but the result is pretty muh the same.

[Tamur]

Ah-ha, great! Thank you both, will have to give the early axe units a go and see how they fare.

[Sinner]

One good tactic I use where battlefield conditions allow is to pin them with the best spear/defensive unit I have available, usually Feudal Sergeants or Fyrdmen since I normally only play the English - or a decent merc unit, since I don't care about casualties so much with mercs - with the pinning unit set to hold formation so it'll take as few casualties as possible.

Then I get a second unit with good charge & decent attack, set them in wedge & hit the rear of the Order Foot. As well as improving the effectiveness of the attack, the wedge tends to force the order foot aside, breaking their ranks more easily so that they lose the spear rank bonus. If possible I disengage the charging unit & repeat the attack.

This does require a higher than average amount of micromanagement, plus you can't always get a unit behind the Order Foot due to enemy units protecting their flanks, but when you can do it, it does tend to reduce casualties among your own troops.

If I have javelins available I'll use them before sending in the charging unit or if I can't flank/backdoor. With my unit of choice being the Spanish Jinete: available in all periods & perhaps the most useful javelin troops you can build. You can bribe Navarre or invade without provoking a war with anybody else and start churning out the Jinetes in just a mere 6 years. As fast cavalry they also make great mop-up units once the enemy routs & in a pinch can be used to melee with weaker opponents such as Archers, Peasants, etc.

And even though you don't have crossbows, peppering the Order Foot with as many arrows as you can before melee starts is a good idea, you'll still whittle their numbers down some. If you have managed to bribe the starting longbows from Wales, Order Foot should be high on the list of potential targets for them.

[Doug-Thompson]

1. Play Danes and use Vikings.

2. Horse archers.

[Papewaio]

Hit them with archers, block with spearmen, then flank or rear attack them with urban militia.

Note even humble archers depleting a unit by 10% can increase the chances for the blocking spear unit significantly.

Naturally the results improve as you improve the basic pieces... ie hit them with longbows, block with chiv and flank with billmen.

[Tamur]

Interesting night. I tried pretty much everything mentioned here.

Surprisingly (at least to me), OFS rout almost instantly if they're pinned, under fire from archers (no matter how poorly positioned the archers are) and get flanked. Wedges didn't seem to work at all -- the wedge would hit their back and then crumple into what looked like a simple close formation.

I got them to break ranks consistently by hitting them at a 45 degree angle from the back with my flankers.

I could get them to rout being pinned and getting flanked by a sword unit (no archer support) but it takes a long, long time (eight minutes average with a 3-unit v 2-unit battle).

Cavalry charges do nice damage the first time (i.e. the cavalry hitting them in the back will consistently take down 15 or so OFS) but then the OFS turn around and slice the cavalry unit into fine paste. Breaking the cav off and charging again doesn't work --- the OFS rear line is ready for it the second time.

Viking units and highland clansmen were getting creamed consistently even though they were hitting the OFS units from the back at 45 degree angles.

Mounted archers work wonderfully in a 1 v 1 situation (set the horses on skirmish and the OFS are bound to be exhausted eventually). However, I had trouble managing them in larger battles -- getting a clear shot at their backside is a tricky business.

I can't use javelins worth buckets -- my Jinettes kept getting caught napping and diced. I haven't even tried setting the Jinettes behind my FS units... hmmm.

Anyways, thanks for the fun all, was a good way to learn.

[Doug-Thompson]

... Viking units and highland clansmen were getting creamed consistently even though they were hitting the OFS units from the back at 45 degree angles.

I neglected to mention the valor bonus for Vikings from Norway. That makes a lot of difference. It doesn't allow the Vikings to win outright, but Vikings are very cheap with the Danes' hefty discount.

It's true that holding Order troops in front with spears, showering them with arrows from archers and hitting them in the flank or rear with urban milita works very well -- but there aren't many units that can stand up to a co-ordinated three-way attack, are there?

Substitute Vikings for the spears, Vikings for the urban militia and either keep the archers or substitute Slav javelins for them and the Order Foot will vaporize.

Or just make one unit of Viking Huscarles.

Mounted archers work wonderfully in a 1 v 1 situation (set the horses on skirmish and the OFS are bound to be exhausted eventually). However, I had trouble managing them in larger battles -- getting a clear shot at their backside is a tricky business.

Horse archers are one of the most difficult of all units to use, but it can be done. There's a good guide on how to use HA in the guides section.

I can't use javelins worth buckets -- my Jinettes kept getting caught napping and diced. I haven't even tried setting the Jinettes behind my FS units... hmmm.

Javelins are at least as hard to use as horse archers, frankly.

Jinettes have to work in combination with others to avoid melee. Their range is so short. They can't stop, take aim, fire and still get away against a charging infantry unit.

There's a good example in the HA guide of a "one-two" combination of Jinettes, one luring and the other throwing, wiping out a whole unit of kataphracts.

Foot javelinmen are best used when something else is pinning the target.

In general, though, there are too many Order Foot Soldiers in a full-strength unit for javelins to handle. Javelins are best used against Royal Knights. Kill five or six of those, and that unit is in serious dangers. Javelins are also a serious threat to Crusader knights. Again, a 40-man unit faces serious losses from just a few throws.

Javelins are still effective against men-at-arms, but when you get up to 100-man spear units, you must have a tough holding or pinning unit that will survive Order Foot long enough for the javelins to have effect.