Obsolete troop types

[Daveybaby]

Chances are that all a modern jet would need to do would be fly *near* a biplane and it would be torn apart by turbulence , or even set on fire by afterburners!

w.r.t. the battle of hastings - the axemen actually performed pretty well - pretty much the only reason that harold lost is because his men were undisciplined - the normans repeatedly performed fake charges and retreats, and when small numbers of impetuous axemen broke ranks and charged down off of the ridge to chase them, they were slaughtered piecemeal in the open by the normal knights. General consensus is that if the Saxons had held their far superior defensive position, the normans would have lost.

So i dont know if you can assume that the changes came about because of one battle - these things changed gradually over hundreds of years - a gradual evolutionary progression, which MTW doesnt really simulate.

[katank]

If it's evolutionary, why can't my units get upgraded for a price or if they surpass a certain valor threshold to superior units?

you might be able to change v4 feudal knights to v3 chivalrics etc.

[Daveybaby]

Well, like i said, MTW doesnt simulate it. It just gives you a set of 'idealised' units which were available at certain periods of history. In reality the nature of these units was constantly changing and evolving.

Admittedly you also get revolutionary changes due to new technology - gunpowder being the obvious example, but the evolutionary stuff is also there - its usually a large number of smaller steps which make up the changes.

[Ludens]

Well, like i said, MTW doesnt simulate it. It just gives you a set of 'idealised' units which were available at certain periods of history. In reality the nature of these units was constantly changing and evolving.

Admittedly you also get revolutionary changes due to new technology - gunpowder being the obvious example, but the evolutionary stuff is also there - its usually a large number of smaller steps which make up the changes.

That sumarises it all. Reality is evolution, but that would be very hard to program and difficult for the player to understand. So the game uses programmed 'revolution' that simulates what happened, but not what could have happened.

wonder if they'll bring back movies like in Shoggy?

I have discussed this with several respected Org members before and they have assured me that the movies will return.

Aside from all that why or how do the Saxons get mounted units in Viking invasion. Did they ever actually have Mounted nobles or mounted Bodygaurd units.

I understand they did not. Saxon Thengs rode to battle and dismounted to fight on foot. The Saxons, unlike the French Normans, did not have horses that were powerful enough to carry a warrior and his armour. You also need to train horses against the noise and confusion of a battlefield and to make them willing to charge into a mass of men (especially if the mass of men is tipped with spearheads).
However, they probably had light cavalry (horsemen in game), like the Celts.

[Sinner]

w.r.t. the battle of hastings - the axemen actually performed pretty well - pretty much the only reason that harold lost is because his men were undisciplined - the normans repeatedly performed fake charges and retreats, and when small numbers of impetuous axemen broke ranks and charged down off of the ridge to chase them, they were slaughtered piecemeal in the open by the normal knights. General consensus is that if the Saxons had held their far superior defensive position, the normans would have lost.

So i dont know if you can assume that the changes came about because of one battle - these things changed gradually over hundreds of years - a gradual evolutionary progression, which MTW doesnt really simulate.

The huscarles - the 'professional' warriors in Harold's army - mostly did keep their ranks, it was the fyrd - the rank & file 'militia' who served for a couple of months per year - that were the ones who broke ranks, getting slaughtered & thus weakening the Saxon's numbers until eventually the Norman's could stage a successful assault during their last gasp wave of attacks with Harold's death being the final blow.

As for the story that the Norman forces faked retreats, that is considered unlikely - not impossible, but unlikely. William was leading what was in effect an adhoc force made up of various nationalities and groups lured by the promise of loot, complicating the task of coordinating them. In their very first advance the Normans failed to keep in line, with one wing getting ahead of the others and being routed by the Saxons before the remainder of the Norman forces could intervene. This example of poor command & control indicates that it would be unlilkely that fake retreats would have been possible in the heat of battle due to the danger of them turning into actual routs.

The idea of the fake retreats comes from the Norman chronicler of the battle, and it's likely that he wanted to avoid tarnishing the victory by admitting that the Normans broke at least twice only to be rallied by their leaders. The feigned retreat tale was commonly used by the victors of a battle to mask any embarassment that part or all of their army nearly or actually ran away.

[katank]

supposedly it was after noticing that the fyrd gave chase to being out of position and getting isolated and massacred from the initial Norman rout that the Normans started feigning retreats.

supposedly it's possible to do so with William's cavalry to perform such a task of feigning retreats but not actually routing.

[CherryDanish]

The idea of the fake retreats comes from the Norman chronicler of the battle, and it's likely that he wanted to avoid tarnishing the victory by admitting that the Normans broke at least twice only to be rallied by their leaders. The feigned retreat tale was commonly used by the victors of a battle to mask any embarassment that part or all of their army nearly or actually ran away.

Interesting and very likely the truth as the victor often rewrites history.

The AI tried this on me last night feigning with mounted sergants, my archers had a field day and their whole army routed and broke. I finally got some good use that day from my hobilars that I had held behind my spearwall and I chased down hundreds of fleeing Germans. The lesson here on offense is don't feign cav attacks against a hardened position backed by a significant number of missle troops. On defense the lesson is sometimes it's better to get distracted micromanaging a distant unit and neglect your main troop body so you don't get suckered into chasing down fast cavalry and getting butchered yourself ;).