What's required for to build a keep?

[Grifman]

I can't figure this out. I capture some territories with forts, but I can't upgrade to a keep right off the bat like you could in MTW. Is there some other prequisite? I can't find it in any of the building descriptions. I eventually get to where I can upgrade to a keep, but I haven't found the pattern of what is required yet.

This mod is great, one of the best I've seen of any game really, but it really needs a tech tree/unit FAQ. Can anyone enlighten me? Thanks.

Grifman

[komninos]

Depending on what calture you are
Catholics (Democrats) need a Stoa

Orthodox or Muslim (Oligarchy, East Empires) need a Provinsial Govenors Estate

Pagans can't built these so they can't get more than that.

[Saracen]

I just D/L the mod and it is great work. Just out of curiosity is there any documentation (I have found none) for the mod. How were you supposed to know for example the answer to this person's question? Secondly will the issue of to much money been addressed? Money was part of the challenge of the original game but I find it to be no issue here resulting in armies much to large for the period. If it is not going to be addressed is there a file I can modify that would reduce the income of provinces to about 20% of their current value. I would also like to reduce the starting money. Other than no apparent documentation and this money issue this is a "professional" job and I thank those who made this effort.

[Red Harvest]

Have to agree about this mod being a very professional looking job. There are some limitations imposed by the game engine of course (like referring to catholics, pagans, etc.)

Hope they can work out the money issues. I see one problem when that happens though...the AI will resort to building huge numbers of "trash" units rather than a few good hoplites. Probably will need to adjust the build priorities to get it right.

[komninos]

Hi we are testing a small patch that deals with the ecomony model you can get it here when you get it extract the file in the main MTW dir. Remember to extract them not dump them there! All the files have to go to there directories.

Yes documentation is missing but with my spelling and all the work that something like this needs ... I don't think we can get one done.

[Meneldil]

I've started a game with the Spartian/Lakedomian, and I'm a bit disapointed by the way greek factions play. They mainly recruit hopliton and hopliton only, since everyone gets a bunch of money after a few turns (even with the patch). If they don't have access to hopliton, they recruit a bunch of javeliner (akontistes I think) to keep the loyalty at 200%.

With so many enomotia hopliton involved, battles are just plain boring, because the only way to defeat a 1600 hopliton army with a greek faction is to recruit more than 1600 hopliton (I'm speaking about the early age).
It quickly leads to huge battles, with huge armies only composed of enomotia hopliton -E.H- (so far, the biggest battle I've seen was 11000 vs 7000 with a total of 15000 E.H) and without any strategy. Of course, that's more realistic than MTW, where a whole country was only able to recruit a few thousands units, but fighting a battle like that would take a couple of hours.

I think E.H should be less powerful, or at least limited in someway (with a 4 turns recruiting time, or something like that), but that's just my opinion :)

Right now I'm going to have a look at the Persian, who will hopefully be as funny to play as the Thracian.

PS: I hope you'll consider this post as a constructive criticism, and not as a bitching post. I just thought this problem was worth a post

[Red Harvest]

Hi we are testing a small patch that deals with the ecomony model you can get it here when you get it extract the file in the main MTW dir. Remember to extract them not dump them there! All the files have to go to there directories.

Yes documentation is missing but with my spelling and all the work that something like this needs ... I don't think we can get one done.

I'll give it a try, thanks!

I've not tried digging through the text portions and editing. Would you like some assistance in proof reading some of the HTW text for the next update? I could start looking at editing a few things for you if would like. The content looks good.

There might be a way to provide some sort of basic documentation without doing a lot of writing--maybe a spreadsheet format for key stats for the units, and build requirements for the structures. Some folks did this in the past for MTW. For some other simple documentation you could just start adding lines to the "readme" or another file. I've got an idea. You could start a thread in this forum for information that should be included in a sort of "HTW game info/FAQ/readme" that would serve as documention. People could add suggestions, and the original post could be edited periodically to incorporate them. This would make the documentation of new things a sort of group project. This could eventually be made part of the "official" HTW.

[Saracen]

I D/L the "patch" and over wrote the files in the proper directory. Will this have an impact on a saved game? What is required to build a Stables by the way. I never see one be built but it is required to build some units. Yet I seem to be able to build all the normal horse units? Another mystery to me, LOL!

I can build Egyptian and Phoenecian warships. Egyptian costs 3 times as much and twice as long to build but has worse stats???? What am I missing here?

I am building units and structures in a dozen provinces every turn. I am still gaining 10,000 to 15,000 bucks a turn. I did do the patch. Any thoughts?

[Saracen]

This economic model is just ruining the game for me. Perhaps I can do my own editing. I see three files in the startpos directory. I assume the hellenic_cl.txt is classical, pcl.txt is proclassical and da.txt is geometric? Is that correct? I see inside those files something called "setTreasury" which I assume is the amount of start funds that I can reduce drastically. I also see regional attributes that shows a column called "income". I am assuming that is the base amount of farm income which I could also reduce. Am I correct in all these assumptions? I see something called setimportpercentage which I changed from 20 to 10. I assume that will reduce the imports by 50%. I am going to reduce the treasury to 10% of the current amount and reduce the regions to 50% of their current income to start, just to see what happens. I am hoping that a rduction in the economy will reduce the army sizes which I also think eventually become to large. We shall see.

Also I looked for the Egyptian warship to make adjustments to its stats. Anyone tell me where I can find that. Thanks to all for any assistance.

[Ldvs]

Few units require a high level of buildings, the highest buildings "only" give extra valour.

I dont know what faction you're currently playing but not all have the choice between the phoenecian and egyptian warships. When playing the phrygians i only choose the phoenecian one too ~:p

da.txt = geometrical

If you want to modify units' stats open your Hellenic_unit_prod2.txt (Use the gnome editor it's much more handy)
Although there's no "egyptian warship", it's called by another name and i don't know which one. If you want my opinion, you shouldn't lower the value of the tradable goods, the small factions heavily rely on trade.

[Meneldil]

I kinda agree with saracen here. I'm not playing the mod anymore apart from historical battles because I can't fight any battle 'manually'. As soon as I attack someone, I have to deal with armies of (at least) 5.000 men (if they are greeks) or (at least) 15.000 men (if they are from eastern factions). Battles just can't be played right now, except if you have a good couple of hours to spend, and if you're prepared to watch a not so exciting fight between 1.600 over-powerful athenian enomotia hopliton and 1.600 over-over-powerful spartian enomotia.

That's quite a shame because everything else in the game is perfect : the campaign map, the battle maps, the icons, the new units models, the music, etc.
It's just that seeing the AI having 20 full stacks of his best units in each province kinda kills the fun (there are sometimes so many units in greece or turkey on the campaign map that scrolling the map becomes laggy !).

Hopefully, the economic model and the units can easily be modded (I've never tried to do so, but it shouldn't be more difficult thanediting VI startpos)

Anyway, I'm in no way bitching and or whining, since your mod is by far the best MTW mod (IMO), and I fully understand that the game must be hard to balance with so different factions. This is (I hope) a constructive post that will help you to make some balance changes (if you're planning to do update the mod once more).

[Saracen]

Wow!!!! What a HUGE difference this has made in the entire feel of the game for me. I started as the Spartans as there is less units and provinces to fool with and I have been tweaking the Hellenic_DA.txt file (started in Geometric)and going in and out of the game to see the differences. For the first 15 years I was dealing in the HUNDREDS of Gc. I had to care much more about economic improvements in the early game. The stacks and stacks of units and the ocean full of ships have been reduced dramatically! I was at a net +6 income for the first few years, yes SIX!!!! I really had to struggle to keep the books balanced. Here is what I have settled on so far:

Normal Difficulty is what I was using:
1. Reduced all treasury's to 10% of their original value. For example the Spartans started with 495 Gc.
2. Reduced all provinces to 50% of their original income value
3. Tradable goods value reduced by 50%
4. I did increase the setimportpercentage from 20 to 40. Originally I reduced it to 10 but the imports were in single digits while the exports before reducing them by 50% were in the high double digits. For example Sparta exports Olive Oil and was getting 71 per year for each country it exported to. I had sent merchant ships almost all over the map and was getting over 1500 Gc per year. I consider that to much looking at imports and farm income for balance so I cut it in half but increased the imports.

I am sure I will probably keep tweaking until I get the feel I am looking for. If anyone wants the Hellenic_DA.txt file I am using I will be happy to email it to you with details of the changes that are contained. donaldcole@charter.net

Anyone know what ship is the Eqyptian warship? While I am in the mood to make changes I would like to fix that.***I found it, it was the Cog. I adjusted it as follows range-3, attack-5, defense-5, speed-2, strength-5. I looked at the other ships and their values and the cost and interpreted these values accordingly.

[Ldvs]

It's just that seeing the AI having 20 full stacks of his best units in each province kinda kills the fun (there are sometimes so many units in greece or turkey on the campaign map that scrolling the map becomes laggy !).

Well you didn't see my Persian war campaign, the Persians were toying with a 46 full stacks army , but with the new economic model it only happened to me in this "era". It's up to you to gang up with small factions before one of the major faction overrun the map. (exactly the same strategy as the viking era in VI).

[Saracen]

Using the Gnome Editor, does anyone know the "formula" used to calculate the support cost per unit that you see in the game? Column 4 in the Editor has an interger number. For example Polmiste has a 1 in that column and their support cost is 16. Spartans have a 2 in that column but their support cost is the same, 16. Horses tend to have big numbers in that column and their support costs show it. Help please if you know.

[komninos]

Hi all,

A good way to calculate support for anything is 20% of building value. I have avoided it since the support cost is a bit strange how it is calculated in the game and I can't figure it out.

Any way I was afraid that increasing the support will make the original starting in negative while I felt that a 4 unit complement was a mast in every territory.

Thanks for the input though ... I will increase the support cost of all units a bit while keeping the rest of the values unchanged except the starting values that will be change to 20%*the_sum_of all_provinces*10_years.

I will come back to you with this so check back!

[Saracen]

I am in about year 25 of a game as the Athenians. My income is about 6000 a turn and my support costs are about 3700 a turn. I have accumulated about 30,000 Gc. Trade accounts for about 4800 of the income. I am in every sea area possible. I have attacked mostly rebels and not been attacked by any faction. I have about 7 provinces and basically been left alone to grow as I choose. I think this gives me a good "best case" scenario" of the feel of the economic model I have adopted. Obviously any kind of war where my trade was cut could put me in a negative annual income. I could potentially go from about a +2000 a turn to a -2000 a turn. I see many provinces still with single stacks some with 2 and a few mostly the Eastern armies with 3 or 4 but the quality of their troops is not as good. This is the settings I am using. All regions base income reduced by 50%. All start money is 10% of the original amount. For example 6000 became 600! Tradable goods value cut by 50%. Imports percentage increased from 20% to 40%. This yields the original import value. I am very pleased with the "feel" of the game so far. I am going to continue playing and will advise of any further tweaks. I have it in my mind that I want to reduce the trade further perhaps by as much as an additional 50% which means the tradable goods would be 25% of their original value but I want to play a few more turns in hopes of getting in a big war and seeing if I really struggle which is what I want to do.

Looking at the unit information I would like to see more balance in the armies particularly the Greeks. I have gone back and looked over some historical data and as many of you have mentioned in other threads the proportion of Hoplites is far to much. One of the areas I see as an issue is the support costs. 16 is equal to many of the crap units in the game yet they are among the elite of all units. These units should require more support costs and perhaps take even longer to train. I am going to start working on this issue by doing the following, increasing the build time to 3 years and increasing the support costs to 80. These units are the core of the Greek armies not necessarily the majority in all cases. I am going to go digging in the attic for some source material pertaining to the composition of ancient armies. I will tell you what I find.

[Saracen]

Some 3 hours later a a few pounds lighter from being in a hot attic I have come up with some reference materials. First a little background. I started board gaming, mostly war simulations with Avalon Hill games in 1960 when I was 15. Between than and 1978 I went from board games to military miniatures of which I have several thousand. Every house I owned in that period had to have a "war game room" which was basically a pool table with a 5X9 sheet of plywood on top painted green. I have collected several sets of war gaming rules written by many historical experts. I also have a library of books concerning war gaming and military history. Bought my first computer in 1978 and gradually my gaming has moved over to the computer which I have done exclusively for over 10 years. This game is like fighting a battle of miniatures and reminds me of those "old days". At any rate when we played ancient miniatures we would fight balanced battles. An example of how the rules worked would be say each side gets 1500 points worth of troops. The rules would provide army lists which would give you how many points a particular unit will cost. A unit of Hoplites might cost you 250 points where a unit of light slingers might be 25 points. Also and more importantly each army had a list of percentages of troop types allowed. You were not allowed to spend all 1500 points on Hoplites. It might give you a minimum/maximum % per unit type, for example you might only be able to spend 20%-25% of your 1500 points on Hoplites. Perhaps Slingers might be 15%-20%. These are just examples but you were "forced" by the rules to play with an army that was a reasonable simulation of the composition of that army from an historical perspective. If I wanted to be Carthaginians you couldn't take all elephants for example. I think you get the idea. Some of the rules sets are even more specific and give you an actual list of units to use vs an opposing army of specific units. Then of course the historical data itself of specific orders of battle perhaps give us the best picture of army compositions. When the Greeks fought Greeks they tended to have smaller armies with a greater proportion of Hoplites. There were different mixes of troops when the eastern armies arrived on the scene. Terrain also had a bearing on troop types used.

So how does any of this bear on this mod of MTW. The nature of the software does not "force" a particular army composition. With the almost unlimited funds available we wind up with to many total troops and the troop types tend to be the "best" you could buy. Hence 16 Hoplites units vs 16 Hoplites units, not exactly what I would call a historical simulation. Before I start I want to say that this is simply for my own enjoyment of the game and I am not putting "anyone down" for what they have created or how they wish to play. I wouldn't have anything to work with if it hadn't been for the fine efforts of the folks who created the mod.

The first step is to get the total economics under control. I am probably 80% of the way there with the modifications I have made so far. As I said I will probably "tone down" the trading even further but that is for another discussion. My first step will be to take the reference materials and come up with some idea of appropriate army compositions. I am going to start with the Greek Hoplites as that is the most glaring inconsistancy I see. I have to use the game software provided as the "tool set" so that means to me a combination of unit cost, build time and support cost. For example if I first take away 90% of your available funds, reduce your yearly income by 80% then make you take more time and money to build them and yet more money to support them I can "force" you to build less Hoplites and more of other troop types. Your total army will more closely resemble historical reality. here is a list of the reference materials I am going to use:

Warfare in the Classical World by John Warry
An illustrated encyclopedia of weapons, warriors and warfare in the ancient civilizations of Greece and Rome. From the rise of Mycenae to the decline of the Roman Empire 1600 BC - 800 AD.

Ancient Empires - A simulation of wars of antiquity by Greg Pitts & Scott Bowden, Emperor's Press LTD.

War Games Research Group, war game rules 3000 BC to 1250 AD
5th Edition, June 1976

War Games Research Group, war game rules 3000 BC to 1000 AD
Revised August 1981
Revised January 1982

War Games Research Group, war game rules 3000 BC to 1485 AD
Revised August 1992

The Shock of Impact - Rules for the ancient period by Ian S. Beck and Michael Bussey, copyright August 1981

Classical Warfare - Rules for ancient warfare from the Pharaohs to Charlemagne by Gary Gygax, published by TSR Rules copyright 1975

Tactica - A historical approach to ancient wargaming by Arty Conliffe, copyright 1989

[Pericles]

I am in about year 25 of a game as the Athenians. My income is about 6000 a turn and my support costs are about 3700 a turn. I have accumulated about 30,000 Gc. Trade accounts for about 4800 of the income. I am in every sea area possible. I have attacked mostly rebels and not been attacked by any faction. I have about 7 provinces and basically been left alone to grow as I choose. I think this gives me a good "best case" scenario" of the feel of the economic model I have adopted. Obviously any kind of war where my trade was cut could put me in a negative annual income. I could potentially go from about a +2000 a turn to a -2000 a turn. I see many provinces still with single stacks some with 2 and a few mostly the Eastern armies with 3 or 4 but the quality of their troops is not as good. This is the settings I am using. All regions base income reduced by 50%. All start money is 10% of the original amount. For example 6000 became 600! Tradable goods value cut by 50%. Imports percentage increased from 20% to 40%. This yields the original import value. I am very pleased with the "feel" of the game so far. I am going to continue playing and will advise of any further tweaks. I have it in my mind that I want to reduce the trade further perhaps by as much as an additional 50% which means the tradable goods would be 25% of their original value but I want to play a few more turns in hopes of getting in a big war and seeing if I really struggle which is what I want to do.

Looking at the unit information I would like to see more balance in the armies particularly the Greeks. I have gone back and looked over some historical data and as many of you have mentioned in other threads the proportion of Hoplites is far to much. One of the areas I see as an issue is the support costs. 16 is equal to many of the crap units in the game yet they are among the elite of all units. These units should require more support costs and perhaps take even longer to train. I am going to start working on this issue by doing the following, increasing the build time to 3 years and increasing the support costs to 80. These units are the core of the Greek armies not necessarily the majority in all cases. I am going to go digging in the attic for some source material pertaining to the composition of ancient armies. I will tell you what I find.

Keep up the excellent work!

HTW is by far my favorite mod.

It just needs to be tweaked.

As far as building costs/time to build/income goes, the Viking expansion is a good guide to go by.

Also, ALL starting armies should be reduced to 25% to 40% of current totals.

The Greek hoplites should be expensive and take more time to train.

[Pericles]

Some 3 hours later a a few pounds lighter from being in a hot attic I have come up with some reference materials. First a little background. I started board gaming, mostly war simulations with Avalon Hill games in 1960 when I was 15. Between than and 1978 I went from board games to military miniatures of which I have several thousand. Every house I owned in that period had to have a "war game room" which was basically a pool table with a 5X9 sheet of plywood on top painted green. I have collected several sets of war gaming rules written by many historical experts. I also have a library of books concerning war gaming and military history. Bought my first computer in 1978 and gradually my gaming has moved over to the computer which I have done exclusively for over 10 years. This game is like fighting a battle of miniatures and reminds me of those "old days". At any rate when we played ancient miniatures we would fight balanced battles. An example of how the rules worked would be say each side gets 1500 points worth of troops. The rules would provide army lists which would give you how many points a particular unit will cost. A unit of Hoplites might cost you 250 points where a unit of light slingers might be 25 points. Also and more importantly each army had a list of percentages of troop types allowed. You were not allowed to spend all 1500 points on Hoplites. It might give you a minimum/maximum % per unit type, for example you might only be able to spend 20%-25% of your 1500 points on Hoplites. Perhaps Slingers might be 15%-20%. These are just examples but you were "forced" by the rules to play with an army that was a reasonable simulation of the composition of that army from an historical perspective. If I wanted to be Carthaginians you couldn't take all elephants for example. I think you get the idea. Some of the rules sets are even more specific and give you an actual list of units to use vs an opposing army of specific units. Then of course the historical data itself of specific orders of battle perhaps give us the best picture of army compositions. When the Greeks fought Greeks they tended to have smaller armies with a greater proportion of Hoplites. There were different mixes of troops when the eastern armies arrived on the scene. Terrain also had a bearing on troop types used.

So how does any of this bear on this mod of MTW. The nature of the software does not "force" a particular army composition. With the almost unlimited funds available we wind up with to many total troops and the troop types tend to be the "best" you could buy. Hence 16 Hoplites units vs 16 Hoplites units, not exactly what I would call a historical simulation. Before I start I want to say that this is simply for my own enjoyment of the game and I am not putting "anyone down" for what they have created or how they wish to play. I wouldn't have anything to work with if it hadn't been for the fine efforts of the folks who created the mod.

The first step is to get the total economics under control. I am probably 80% of the way there with the modifications I have made so far. As I said I will probably "tone down" the trading even further but that is for another discussion. My first step will be to take the reference materials and come up with some idea of appropriate army compositions. I am going to start with the Greek Hoplites as that is the most glaring inconsistancy I see. I have to use the game software provided as the "tool set" so that means to me a combination of unit cost, build time and support cost. For example if I first take away 90% of your available funds, reduce your yearly income by 80% then make you take more time and money to build them and yet more money to support them I can "force" you to build less Hoplites and more of other troop types. Your total army will more closely resemble historical reality. here is a list of the reference materials I am going to use:

Warfare in the Classical World by John Warry
An illustrated encyclopedia of weapons, warriors and warfare in the ancient civilizations of Greece and Rome. From the rise of Mycenae to the decline of the Roman Empire 1600 BC - 800 AD.

Ancient Empires - A simulation of wars of antiquity by Greg Pitts & Scott Bowden, Emperor's Press LTD.

War Games Research Group, war game rules 3000 BC to 1250 AD
5th Edition, June 1976

War Games Research Group, war game rules 3000 BC to 1000 AD
Revised August 1981
Revised January 1982

War Games Research Group, war game rules 3000 BC to 1485 AD
Revised August 1992

The Shock of Impact - Rules for the ancient period by Ian S. Beck and Michael Bussey, copyright August 1981

Classical Warfare - Rules for ancient warfare from the Pharaohs to Charlemagne by Gary Gygax, published by TSR Rules copyright 1975

Tactica - A historical approach to ancient wargaming by Arty Conliffe, copyright 1989

I'm also a wargamer. :)

I personally like to agonize over my purchase choices.

I think this is part of the fun, and forces you to really use tactics in order to win.

I think you are on the right track, and fully agree with what you are doing.

Too bad MTW doesn't use population totals per province.

However, I think using many of your techniques, we can come to a better solution.

Cheers!

[Saracen]

To Komninos - If a "rule of thumb" for support value is 20% of purchase cost that would for example make the Hoplite support cost somewhere around 100 or so instead of 16. That certainly is in line with my thought process. How did it get to be 16 which is almost the standard cheapest support cost in the game? Not bitching, just asking. I see a Spartan listed as 1500 and 3 years with a multiplyer of 2 for support cost in the Gnome editor. I assume that will yield a 32 support cost but since I haven't seen one of those units yet I am guessing. 20% of 1500 would give you a support cost of 300 which is 10 times what I assume it is now. Certainly increasing the support costs with the reduction in overall money would reduce the number of available Hoplites and bring more balance to the unit composition.

Could you provide a list of names you use in the game to help identify units using the Gnome Manager? That way I could begin to compile an excel spreadsheet of units with all pertinant data, look at tweaks such as what we are talking about and generate a list of units and specs which would benefit the players much like the books that were sold with the original MTW.

[Saracen]

Here is the status of my current game with Athens. Using the reduced economic model I created in year 127 I have accumulated 35993 Gc and expanded to 9 provinces. As I previously indicated no major wars just taking rebel provinces. I have expanded my fleet to take in EVERY sea area so my trade is maximized. My current yearly income is 7724. I just changed the DA_hoplite in the Gnome editor and changed the support integer from 1 to 6. The support cost for a Hoplite is now 96 instead of 16. That is 18.3% of the purchase cost. My yearly expenses just went to 6314 from 5228 giving me a surplus of only 1410. If I had been paying 96 instead of 16 from the beginning there is no way I could have built as many Hoplites as I did. Right now they are about 1/3 of the total army unit count which really is not unreasonable when I look at the army lists I have been studying. With that kind of support cost I would have had less available funds and hence less Hoplites. I think a combination of reduced economics and increased Hoplite support cost will change the entire "flavor" of the game in the direction I think we are looking for. I assume the CL_hoplite is a later time hoplite. Since you reduced the cost to 475 I will reduce the support cost to 80 which is a 5 integer. What is the Spartan that costs 1500? What is the Ath_hoplite, Arg_hoplite and Later_hoplite? Is there any other units by a different name in the Gnome editor that is a Hoplite? I am going to change the CL_hoplite support number to 5 but will leave the Spartan alone until you confirm what that is? Anything else labeled a hoplite will get about 20% support cost as above. I assume the Macedonian Phalanx is in their somewhere. What do you call it?

I am going to start a new game with these support cost changes to see the impact.

[Ldvs]

Spartans are Sparta's warriors, their only strengh, so don't plummet the upkeep too much (they don't have any heavy cavalry , nor scythians warbands).

CL_hoplite are not the hoplites available in the classical but in the proclassical age, and the later_hoplite, you guessed it in the classical age.

Arg_hoplite are the Argians hoplites
Ath_hoplite are the Atheaneans hoplites (proclassical age)

Ekdromos is the light version of the hoplites (the topless one with no armor)

[Saracen]

I started a new game as the Macedonians with the following adjustments to support costs:

DA_Hoplites 96
CL_Hoplites 80
Ath_Hoplites 192
Arg_Hoplites 160
Later_Hoplites 112
Maced_Hoplites 112
Yfic_Hoplites 144
Spartans 192
Ekdromos 48

They are all based on an integer number that calculates on a unit size of 128. In the game if the unit size is different it is proportional. I gave the Spartans a break, based on approx. 20% of cost they should have been around 300. I think the cost is perhaps a bit excessive but I am not dealing with that right now. One change at a time and then testing.

I poked around in the Classical period set up to see some specific units. I can see why perhaps the economics are so "juiced up". There are a "ton" of units already built. Far beyond the normal start for a Late period MTW game. With reasonable economics you are already "in the red" at the start of a late period. There are multiple huge stacks in almost every province. Personal taste, I would rather start in a more reasonable fashion and build up as in the regular game. The size of the armies mirror the huge stacks that have developed in the past. I am in turn 17 of a new game and I am just starting to see a small sprinkling of Hoplites around the board. I could have built them 6 turns ago but decided I couldn't afford them based on the upkeep vs my spare income. As it is I will have only two in the armies covering 5 provinces. Much better "feel" to it already. Increased support costs seems to be keeping things under control. I have had some requests for the files from folks. If you want them email me donaldcole@charter.net

[Ldvs]

You know you can also remove some units at the beginning if you want to, it's in the same file Hellenic_DA.txt .

[komninos]

Hi Saracen,

You went a long way but before you go any further lets coordinate so in my next update you don't lose the work you have done so far.

I have made this post last night in the Siskinies.

Hi all,

Here are the files for a number of patches and fixes (hopefully) that people talk about. This is mainly for test so post your experience with it.
Things that have changed:
1. New charge system. Somebody said some time ago that we can go from –9 till 9 so this is implemented and gives better granularity for the charge values.
2. New AI preference system. The calculation now take in mind the preferred culture so Persians though they can produce hoplites they will not do it in large numbers but you have to report back on that. If you like the Persian wars system of locking ht units in to the areas please say so I can pass it to the old HTW production files
3. Support Costs. Unit support cost will be ~20% of the production cost. This translates to a lot of money for a big army and lots of initial hostilities since most factions will begin with negative income. This needs further study since you still get of a good + once you get some foothold (though by the time I did that I did not have a big army).
4. Production time calculation changed. This will slow you down a lot! Production times have nearly doubled. Now moral, armor, attack and defense values are taken in to consideration (not only moral)

Oh one more thing ... the files

These changes are more or less what you talk about but when I made them the result was devastating with the previus economic model. I spent the first 5 moves deep in the negative -2000/year and as all entered a war just to reduce the army I had. I finaly got in to a very healthy positive about 10 moves later but I took out the Boeotean and my army was 1/2 of what I had in first turn. So since the changes are BIG please undo some of the changes in the campaign files adn start over with this one.

Send me your mail so we can comunicate on a more direct level and faster.
I will also send you the production files (XLS format)so you and I can have a comon base and don't use gnome with them please!!!

As for the Holitic units most you were OK but here is te official:
DA_Hoplites Dark Age Hoplites, Very heavily armored.
CL_Hoplites These are the well known Hoplites of the Proclassical period
Late_Hoplites These are used in the Classical period
Ekdromos these are standard hoplites with no armor
these are all generic hoplitic units.
Spartans are the Spartan Hoplites
Ath_Hoplites are the Atheneans
Arg_Hoplites are the Argians
Yfic_Hoplites are the Athenean Yficratian Hoplites of classical period
Maced_Hoplites are the Phalangites of the Macedoneans.

Greek cavalry goes almost the same way ... except Medium_cavalry is the Greek proclassical "heavy" havalry.

One more thing what do you thing a good starting condition would be per province? 2 or 3 units and 4 at the capital?

[Ldvs]

One more thing what do you thing a good starting condition would be per province? 2 or 3 units and 4 at the capital?

Only 2 units would be a bit short in case you're attacked, therefore 3 would be a good compromise.

[Saracen]

First and foremost I appreciate this outstanding effort. I only came upon the mod on a serious level a week or so ago. Ancients is by far my favorite period to game and this just "sucked me in". I know I can get somewhat overenthusiastic and just start "spewing" ideas. I would be privileged to work with you. Would love to talk on the phone and coordinate ideas. If you would email me a number and times that are convenient for you I would make the calls donaldcole@charter.net By the way to you use Teamspeak? I have an on line gaming group and we have a server up 24/7 which makes vocal communications free and available.

I looked at the files. What is the difference between the two and which should be tested first. I assume they should be used with your "standard" CL, DA and PCL text files which put the economy back the way it was?

[Ldvs]

I looked at the files. What is the difference between the two and which should be tested first. I assume they should be used with your "standard" CL, DA and PCL text files which put the economy back the way it was?

Hellenic_unit_prod3.txt is the Persian war unit production file.
Hellenic_unit_prod2.txt is the standard unit production file that works for the 3 original eras.

Like you said it, the economy is back to what it was, but the upkeep costs, the training times are higher (Spartans' upkeep now costs 288 gb for example and take 5 years to be trained, basic hoplites take 3 years...).

I'm currently playing with those files, and no faction expended quickly (except the Argians), nor produced full stacks of hoplites (an average of 3 hoplite units per stack).

[Saracen]

How/when is the prod3 file used? I will insert the prod2 file but I need an apporpriate DA.txt file. There was a patched file put out after 3.1 and I don't know which is correct to use. I am using the "original" from the 3.1 mod right now. I took a quick peek at the late era and saw the negative number on income. Now I would move the amount of start units down to perhaps just barely break even but I do like the concept of forcing the countries to go to war and survive. They will by necessity reduce their units through attrition. My only concern is that we will go from no one going to war, to everyone going to war. I think it needs to be somewhere in between. Just an observation.

The Egyptian warship (cog) still needed to be fixed in the new file. I changed it to 3,5,5,2,5 which matches up with the other ships and their value IMO.

[komninos]

Saracen,

These values are calculated and take in to concideration several factors. Though I still have to update some values at the ships.

You can find the latest campaign files in this thread or the Siskinies but then you would have to install this patch after this files to overwrite the production files.

As Ldvs pointed these go to the main directory and 2.txt is used for the original while 3.txt for the Persian war campaign.

At the moment due to the heavyly armed areas you will get in to a lot of truble but I hope I have sometime to remake the campaign files and reduce the units to 3 or 4 per province.

Forget the phone since we might be in different countries / timezones ... I will drop you a line soon with the original production files.

Cheers