Help needed. France in high era

[Blodrast]

Sociopsychoactive, why ?
The HRE doesn't have good provinces (just ordinary ones, nothing outstanding; maybe some iron, but spain's iron is MUCH handier and it comes with much better provinces). HRE doesn't have coastal provinces, either, so: no trade benefits from its provinces, and loyalty problems SURE to appear later on (esp in the inland provinces).

Moreover, HRE being what it is, it will certainly be excommed and as usual everybody will gang up on them, making them so much less of a threat. This is definitely not the case with the English.

On the other hand, English provinces have none of the above mentioned disadvantages, and all the advantages. Not all of them are rich, granted, but you can make good money from Wessex and Mercia, both from farming and from trade.

Besides, a key point is that the English CAN'T defend their island provinces using troops from the mainland ! That's a huge advantage !

I say let them have Aquitaine and Brittany and Anjou, I don't care. I'll take Wessex and Mercia, and let them hit their heads against the troops in Ile-de-France and Flanders and Burgundy.

But I am definitely more than interested to hear your arguments for a pro-kill-HRE standpoint.

[Sociopsychoactive]

The point of going after the HRE is not to get land, and most definately not to keep it. The point is to break their back, so they canot be a significant threat. As it;s starting in hight, the english have enough troops on the mainland to be a serious threat, and the french provinces arn;t developed enough for an instant kick off. The HRE's armies at the start of high are still relatively weak, although they are large in number. After two or three good wins over them you can force them into civil war, then turn your energies and armies to the english. unless provoked the english may well give you time to kick the HRE.

While HRE provinces may be inland they are usefull aswell, if you blitz to switzerland thats always good, if you just take a few borders thats also good as you expand your empire without threat of excommunication, and have (relatively0 easy fights to defend them, if you go merc heavy. Also they are almost all reasonably rich farmland, so get you a steady income which is greatly needed early on.

[afrit]

@Blodrast

Your guide link did not work for me. If you have a summary saved somewhere, do you mind copying to this thread?

@Katank

I tried your "blitz the English and Egypt on turn 1" with mixed success. It can definitely work, but I did not manage to pull it off totally. I took Anjou in turn 1 (besieged it to be accurate), but I did not venture an assault and waited for it to fall in 3 years. I simply did not have enough troops to simultaneously assault Brittany and Aquitaine. The English longbows are deadly, and I had no counter to their FMAA other than my Jedi king! So I waited until after Anjou fell and I got a Prince. And then I made my move against England. I did win in Brittany (barely), and would have captured their King if I won in Aquitaine too. Alas my King could not defeat their superior force. Although I lost badly, under different circumstances (e.g different terrain) I think I can win that battle.

As for the Egyptians, I did capture Syria and Palestine (with its castle intact!). But did not push into Sinai for fear of rebellions in the newly conquered provinces and the fact they had Gulam units of 80 men (yes, eighty! I didn't know you can build 80 cav in a regular campaign). I am happy with having Tripoli and Antioch secured. And with the extra provinces I may just outproduce the Egyptians.

@Blodrast again
I have not tried the "attack Wessex" strategy. I may try it if the other approaches fail. Taking Anjou has the benefit of protecting one side of Ile De France, which we all agree is crucial for French success.

@Psychosocioactive
A quick and deadly blow to the HRE is definitely tempting. I think, however, that it would stretch forces too much. If you wait till a decent merc force materializes, it may be too late. If you have successfully done it on high, I would like to know more detail on the build and attack sequences.

Keep the comments flowing. THanks for the help.

A few things I discovered:
1. Egypt will not try to land a marine force into Tripoli (although they can) as long as I had a nominal garrison there (100 peasants!)
2. At least for the first 4-5 turns, the HRE will leave you alone. I did, however, leave some troops on the border as a (nominal) deterrent. Had HRE invaded, I would be toast.

A few mistakes I made:
*I Built an Inn in Champagne instead of NOrmandy. It was totally dry, presumably because there was no war with HRE.
*I produced a ship from Toulouse thinking that I was gonna lose that province anyway and at least I could salvage a ship from it. Turns out that nobody attacked it, even though it only had 100 peasants. In hindsight, 3 UM's or even 3 peasants from it could have tipped the balance of the battle in Aquitaine that I eventually lost.

BTW, I did use peasants as flankers in a couple of battles and they sure made a difference. WHo said they are totally useless!


again, thanks.

CHeers
Afrit

[afrit]

On my 5th try I blitzed England and Egypt from turn 1. By turn 5 english king was dead and his faction disintegrated, and I am about to capture the forts of all English provinces in France.

Amazingly, GErmans sat still throughout the whole affair! Now I can concentrate on them.


Thanks for all the suggestions.

Afrit

[Blodrast]

well done afrit.
My thread was removed because my settings were messed up and I thought the old thread on French was gone; it's not gone, and you can find it in the Guides section.
Here is a link to it.
Blitzing the Eggy as well is interesting, especially if it works ;)
I found it a bit too daring for me, in that the Byz also attacked me on occasion, and you can definitely not produce decent quality troops to hold against both; your crusade troops, while very good, won't last forever, and in the beginning you can mostly produce crap in Antioch, Tripoli and Cyprus.

Edit: a few more notes:

- HRE seems to focus on Burgundy and Southern France, most of the time. I am not sure what their early aggressiveness depends on, but some of the time they attacked in the first 2-3 years (without my attacking them first).
- building stuff in Toulouse: I wouldn't rely on being able to keep it for long; in my experience, I was attacked there by italians and aragonese - once by both at the same time...
It's not essential to keep it in the beginning, I believe; sure, it's useful afterwards for CK, but basically I've seen several games where the Aragonese were fixed on Toulouse, got it, and then sat tight and nice for hundreds of years, although they had plenty of chances to get neighboring provinces...

[afrit]

Blodrast,
thanks for the insightful comments. I read your guide. Makes lots of strategic sense. You must have played France quite a few times. To be clear, I was playing Domination and not GA, and that may affect other countries' behavior. Also level of difficulty may affect AI behavior.

I disagree slightly with your levant strategy. I believe the game designers intended for the forces in Outremer to attack early, otherwise why provide them with 4* general and so many troops, yet not enough local production. At the beginning of the game you can outmuscle Egypt. But with time they inevitably get better troops locally (Egypt and Palestine are Castle and FOrtress level already) while France cannot. So an early attack is a must . I found in my several campaign tries that attacking and holding Syria and Palestine in tunrs 1 or 2 is easy. Egypt may not even fight. You can then stay put for a few years getting troops from them.

In Europe it is a different story. WHile the turn 1 blitz worked for me, I have to admit that it was luck and I took advantage of the AI on the battlefield (e.g he allowed me shoot up a whole unit of FK's with crossbows without charging just because I had some good troops around, yet he wouldn't move the FK's out of range!). I think the designers intended for a defensive game in Europe while the levantine provinces provided the money to keep it going. WHich fits more with your strategy. I think you must take Anjou early though to bring those troops from Toulouse home. Just leave a 100 peasant garrison there. Anyone foolish enough to attack Toulouse will then suffer lots of losses in an assault or will siege for several years tying up their troops.


If I get a chance I will try the "attack Anjou and Wessex, abandon Toulouse" strategy in a new campaign.

Afrit



If RTW

afrit

[katank]

egypt is a citadel in start of high.

also, eggy and almos get 80 men ghulam cav and DAs at start of High.

these proved very good on the battlefield just by the pure size of unit.

Egypt is always attack instantly or bust.

Otherwise, they will produce such an amount of peasants, nubians, and camels that they can wear you down cost effectively in the desert and they are richer. They also can spam those fort level from multiple provinces.

securing all the way to Egypt is typically my strategy while at the same time progressing in Europe.

It's a huge boost to try and take Sinai first but not Arabia so you can ransom the Eggy sultan at least once.

this can provide enough to hire some emrcs for war in Europe. if longbows are deadly, hire some mercs for yourself!