Help needed. France in high era

[afrit]

I have successfully played France in the early era but I keep getting stomped when I start it on high. I have started 2 campaigns (on hard) and each time I got attacked by the HRE AND england.

First time around I was playing defensively, counting on high income from Flanders, Antioch and Tripoli. I was actually running a surplus!. Then I got attacked by HRE in Toulouse. I dragged the siege long enough and then managed to take Lorraine and Burgundy from them. But then England invaded Ile De France and I could not dislodge them. And then Egypt sunk my fleet in Outremer and now I had a third war on my hands : . It was not looking good and I decided to restart.

Second time around, I tried for early alliance with England and HRE in the hope of keeping one of them off my back. No such luck. Both refused. I also built inns in Normandy and Champagne and hired every merc I could get my hands on. I was ready to attack the English in Anjou, but then the HRE again invaded Toulouse. This forced me to divert forces east. Still I declared war on England and beat them out of Anjou and Brittany. Problem is I took so many losses in Anjou that I do not have enough power to finish them off in Aquitaine.

I am going to try again later tonight. I am thinking of either a defensive strategy where I will abandon Toulouse to the Germans (they'll get excommed for it and then other nations may take them out for me) and concentrate on repulsing English attacks in a defensive battle. Or a blitzing strategy where I throw everything at England early on and hope to knock them out of Europe in the first 3-4 turns and then return to fight the (inevitable) attack by the Germans.

Any recommendations? Anyone has a winning strategy for France on high? (specifically on VI and hard setting).

Thanks

afrit

[Sinner]

I'm normally playing the other direction: sending my English armies to thrash the French, but from what I recall of High...

Flanders & Ile de France are your 2 most important regions, for cash/sea link/Wessex link & troop building respectively. I consider Toulouse a nice-to-have region since it has that CK valour bonus, but you can leave that for the initial few years. Toulouse also provides you with a good sea link to the south and a route into the Iron-rich Iberian peninsular, again you have to survive the initial English & HRE assaults before you can worry about your own conquests. If you can, keep Normandy for the title, I recall it gives +1 Command - I rarely assign titles myself, so I'm not 100% sure on that.

I'd concentrate on keeping Flanders & Ile de France, building inns to recuit mercs to help, and primarily push the English, aiming to cripple or take Wessex, their prime troop building region. Try producing a few emissaries to backdoor the English by bribing armies further north or maybe spies to incite Scotland to revolt - the Scots don't need much of an excuse, they're always revolting.

I recall that Burgundy is a good province, so that should probably be your objective in the war against the HRE. It also provides a land link down to Toulouse. I don't often end up fighting them myself, so hopefulyl others can give you a better pointer for dealing with the Germans.

[katank]

I remember smashing all of the English continental possession on turn 1 and using mercs to supplement my forces in striking up to wessex.

In outremer, attack the Eggy in Syria and Edessa immediately and before long you should be at Egypt which is a nice citadel.

I think with the one High French game I played, I had a killer timer rushing and ended up with two nice empires.

In the East, shipping everyone to the front is important.

keep the eastern med open and keep shipping in troops from Cyprus.

Take the war to the enemy and you should be good.

[Blodrast]

hey, you're on the right path ;)
you got the main idea, and Sinner is also right, esp. about Burgundy.

You can take a look at the suggestions I made in the Guides thread for France in high -- oops! looks like they're gone.
Wow, I didn't know some files were lost, but it seems like 80% of the Guides are gone !...

I'll try to post it again.

Edit: ok, posted it again. Here is the link.

[Sociopsychoactive]

I think it might be a better bet to fight defensively against the english while you throw all you have at the HRE. They are still weak at the start of high, so once you get the civil warring (easy to do even in high) then turn to england and beat them off your continent. Inns is a good idea, but don;t be afraid to let the mercs die, they cost to much to let live for that long.

[Blodrast]

Sociopsychoactive, why ?
The HRE doesn't have good provinces (just ordinary ones, nothing outstanding; maybe some iron, but spain's iron is MUCH handier and it comes with much better provinces). HRE doesn't have coastal provinces, either, so: no trade benefits from its provinces, and loyalty problems SURE to appear later on (esp in the inland provinces).

Moreover, HRE being what it is, it will certainly be excommed and as usual everybody will gang up on them, making them so much less of a threat. This is definitely not the case with the English.

On the other hand, English provinces have none of the above mentioned disadvantages, and all the advantages. Not all of them are rich, granted, but you can make good money from Wessex and Mercia, both from farming and from trade.

Besides, a key point is that the English CAN'T defend their island provinces using troops from the mainland ! That's a huge advantage !

I say let them have Aquitaine and Brittany and Anjou, I don't care. I'll take Wessex and Mercia, and let them hit their heads against the troops in Ile-de-France and Flanders and Burgundy.

But I am definitely more than interested to hear your arguments for a pro-kill-HRE standpoint.

[Sociopsychoactive]

The point of going after the HRE is not to get land, and most definately not to keep it. The point is to break their back, so they canot be a significant threat. As it;s starting in hight, the english have enough troops on the mainland to be a serious threat, and the french provinces arn;t developed enough for an instant kick off. The HRE's armies at the start of high are still relatively weak, although they are large in number. After two or three good wins over them you can force them into civil war, then turn your energies and armies to the english. unless provoked the english may well give you time to kick the HRE.

While HRE provinces may be inland they are usefull aswell, if you blitz to switzerland thats always good, if you just take a few borders thats also good as you expand your empire without threat of excommunication, and have (relatively0 easy fights to defend them, if you go merc heavy. Also they are almost all reasonably rich farmland, so get you a steady income which is greatly needed early on.

[afrit]

@Blodrast

Your guide link did not work for me. If you have a summary saved somewhere, do you mind copying to this thread?

@Katank

I tried your "blitz the English and Egypt on turn 1" with mixed success. It can definitely work, but I did not manage to pull it off totally. I took Anjou in turn 1 (besieged it to be accurate), but I did not venture an assault and waited for it to fall in 3 years. I simply did not have enough troops to simultaneously assault Brittany and Aquitaine. The English longbows are deadly, and I had no counter to their FMAA other than my Jedi king! So I waited until after Anjou fell and I got a Prince. And then I made my move against England. I did win in Brittany (barely), and would have captured their King if I won in Aquitaine too. Alas my King could not defeat their superior force. Although I lost badly, under different circumstances (e.g different terrain) I think I can win that battle.

As for the Egyptians, I did capture Syria and Palestine (with its castle intact!). But did not push into Sinai for fear of rebellions in the newly conquered provinces and the fact they had Gulam units of 80 men (yes, eighty! I didn't know you can build 80 cav in a regular campaign). I am happy with having Tripoli and Antioch secured. And with the extra provinces I may just outproduce the Egyptians.

@Blodrast again
I have not tried the "attack Wessex" strategy. I may try it if the other approaches fail. Taking Anjou has the benefit of protecting one side of Ile De France, which we all agree is crucial for French success.

@Psychosocioactive
A quick and deadly blow to the HRE is definitely tempting. I think, however, that it would stretch forces too much. If you wait till a decent merc force materializes, it may be too late. If you have successfully done it on high, I would like to know more detail on the build and attack sequences.

Keep the comments flowing. THanks for the help.

A few things I discovered:
1. Egypt will not try to land a marine force into Tripoli (although they can) as long as I had a nominal garrison there (100 peasants!)
2. At least for the first 4-5 turns, the HRE will leave you alone. I did, however, leave some troops on the border as a (nominal) deterrent. Had HRE invaded, I would be toast.

A few mistakes I made:
*I Built an Inn in Champagne instead of NOrmandy. It was totally dry, presumably because there was no war with HRE.
*I produced a ship from Toulouse thinking that I was gonna lose that province anyway and at least I could salvage a ship from it. Turns out that nobody attacked it, even though it only had 100 peasants. In hindsight, 3 UM's or even 3 peasants from it could have tipped the balance of the battle in Aquitaine that I eventually lost.

BTW, I did use peasants as flankers in a couple of battles and they sure made a difference. WHo said they are totally useless!


again, thanks.

CHeers
Afrit

[afrit]

On my 5th try I blitzed England and Egypt from turn 1. By turn 5 english king was dead and his faction disintegrated, and I am about to capture the forts of all English provinces in France.

Amazingly, GErmans sat still throughout the whole affair! Now I can concentrate on them.


Thanks for all the suggestions.

Afrit

[Blodrast]

well done afrit.
My thread was removed because my settings were messed up and I thought the old thread on French was gone; it's not gone, and you can find it in the Guides section.
Here is a link to it.
Blitzing the Eggy as well is interesting, especially if it works ;)
I found it a bit too daring for me, in that the Byz also attacked me on occasion, and you can definitely not produce decent quality troops to hold against both; your crusade troops, while very good, won't last forever, and in the beginning you can mostly produce crap in Antioch, Tripoli and Cyprus.

Edit: a few more notes:

- HRE seems to focus on Burgundy and Southern France, most of the time. I am not sure what their early aggressiveness depends on, but some of the time they attacked in the first 2-3 years (without my attacking them first).
- building stuff in Toulouse: I wouldn't rely on being able to keep it for long; in my experience, I was attacked there by italians and aragonese - once by both at the same time...
It's not essential to keep it in the beginning, I believe; sure, it's useful afterwards for CK, but basically I've seen several games where the Aragonese were fixed on Toulouse, got it, and then sat tight and nice for hundreds of years, although they had plenty of chances to get neighboring provinces...

[afrit]

Blodrast,
thanks for the insightful comments. I read your guide. Makes lots of strategic sense. You must have played France quite a few times. To be clear, I was playing Domination and not GA, and that may affect other countries' behavior. Also level of difficulty may affect AI behavior.

I disagree slightly with your levant strategy. I believe the game designers intended for the forces in Outremer to attack early, otherwise why provide them with 4* general and so many troops, yet not enough local production. At the beginning of the game you can outmuscle Egypt. But with time they inevitably get better troops locally (Egypt and Palestine are Castle and FOrtress level already) while France cannot. So an early attack is a must . I found in my several campaign tries that attacking and holding Syria and Palestine in tunrs 1 or 2 is easy. Egypt may not even fight. You can then stay put for a few years getting troops from them.

In Europe it is a different story. WHile the turn 1 blitz worked for me, I have to admit that it was luck and I took advantage of the AI on the battlefield (e.g he allowed me shoot up a whole unit of FK's with crossbows without charging just because I had some good troops around, yet he wouldn't move the FK's out of range!). I think the designers intended for a defensive game in Europe while the levantine provinces provided the money to keep it going. WHich fits more with your strategy. I think you must take Anjou early though to bring those troops from Toulouse home. Just leave a 100 peasant garrison there. Anyone foolish enough to attack Toulouse will then suffer lots of losses in an assault or will siege for several years tying up their troops.


If I get a chance I will try the "attack Anjou and Wessex, abandon Toulouse" strategy in a new campaign.

Afrit



If RTW

afrit

[katank]

egypt is a citadel in start of high.

also, eggy and almos get 80 men ghulam cav and DAs at start of High.

these proved very good on the battlefield just by the pure size of unit.

Egypt is always attack instantly or bust.

Otherwise, they will produce such an amount of peasants, nubians, and camels that they can wear you down cost effectively in the desert and they are richer. They also can spam those fort level from multiple provinces.

securing all the way to Egypt is typically my strategy while at the same time progressing in Europe.

It's a huge boost to try and take Sinai first but not Arabia so you can ransom the Eggy sultan at least once.

this can provide enough to hire some emrcs for war in Europe. if longbows are deadly, hire some mercs for yourself!

[afrit]

egypt is a citadel in start of high.

these proved very good on the battlefield just by the pure size of unit.

Egypt is always attack instantly or bust.

It's a huge boost to try and take Sinai first but not Arabia so you can ransom the Eggy sultan at least once.

this can provide enough to hire some emrcs for war in Europe. if longbows are deadly, hire some mercs for yourself!

I meant to say Citadel, not Fortress for Egypt

Agree with immediate attack (or at most wait till turn 2 to get the troops from Cyprus).

Ransoming the Egyptian sultan is nice, but I find that I can capture the enemy king only 1 out of 4 or 5 tries. They either flee or get killed . Do you have a reliable way to capturing the enemy general? I found that using heavy cav or "noble" troops gives better chances for capture. Other than that, any hints? Or do you mean corner him in Arabia after taking Sinai? I believe he usually retreats to Egypt (but I could be wrong).

afrit

[katank]

for reliable royal captures, you have to do autocalc.

in this case, it might even give a more favorable result as french troops are more heavily armored and suffer from fatigue badly in the desert but autocalc doesn't take that into consideration.

[Blodrast]

you guys may be right about the level of aggressivity to be shown in the middle east provinces; i suppose it also depends on other factors, especially on how aggressive the turks, but usually the byz, are. I got attacked by the byz for no reason (I was definitely not extending north, but south, but for some reason they felt threatened or something, and came down hard on me; that combined to my war against the eggy meant pretty instant death).
Even the Eggy's behaviour varies to some extent, i.e. the duration of time until they attacked me varied by a few good years, which you can put to various uses.
But then again, the Eggy AI is predefined as aggressive and expansionist, so you probably can't avoid war with them; one might as well rush them as you guys suggested.

Not to degrade the importance and the righteousness of your suggestion, you may also want to refrain from attacking the Eggy just to get a more challenging game.
I often find myself setting some limits in my campaigns, just because if I didn't, I always find myself killing and conquering and expanding, and finishing the game a lot faster than I usually want to. Of course, this depends a lot on your personal style and preferences.
For instance, when playing the Turks, with katank's blitz strategy you can get the Constantinople-Georgia-Egypt triangle in some 20 years. I always stop after that, and conquer no more until I decide I wanna finish the game. But even that is too much, because that kinda makes me a superpower, and it's very rare that an AI can throw something challenging at me.
Same here with the French: if you get the whole of France (incl Flanders) and Wessex and Mercia (pretty rich in farming + trade), AND you have the entire middle east from antioch and edessa and syria to Egypt, well...the game is pretty much over.
Sure, you _can_ take that, but when you're done with that, in a few years, nobody will be able to stop you ever again.

Like I said, there's lots of ways to take this, all that counts is having fun

Edit: afrit: what i wrote there is based on my experience playing hard and expert, and also global domination, not GA. Strangely enough, sometimes I did better on expert than on hard (go figure) !...

[katank]

yep. I have the same problem. must force self to turtle now.

however, what I outline with blitzing is just a cure for those who complain how they are unable to succeed at the game and have horrible economy etc.

having the Golden triangle certainly fixes that in that you can be richest by farming alone never mind the incredible trade when it come online.

[Cardinal]

I have noticed that rhe English king starts of in France in "High Era" games, so why not isolate the king from his English provinces by placing boats in the North Sea an English Channel for so to incite revolts in the English provinces?? If they don't revolt, the English tax income will certainly be down and troops will be locked in England/Wales..etc.

Might work!

[afrit]

Cardinal,
Interesting suggestion, but.... Problem is that by the time the french have a serious navy fo defeat England, they have already been attacked by HRE and are fighting a two front war.

Did you try your strategy on a hard setting?

Afrit

[katank]

also, you need to cut the landbridge from flanders to wessex or the effect is not sufficient to produce any significant damage and you must be at war with him too.

far easier to defeat their continental forces and get a ransom.