Cardinals - what's the point?

[Feanor]

Does anyone construct the buildings needed in specifically to make these robe wearing fellahs? I can understand building the reliquary to get an inquisitor, or upgrading your taverns for better assassins. I've never thought, 'Oh good I can build cardinals now.'

Am I missing the point? How should I be using them? I'm learning as I play this game that more or less everything in it is there for a good reason.

Thanks

[Papewaio]

They are upgraded bishops... good for defending against inquistors, and useful in muslim zones to change them to your faith before you invade.

[Despot of the English]

There's no better unit to spread the Catholic faith and having a Cathedral is great for morale and brings in a little bit of income too.

[Sinner]

They also have a better hat than the bishops.

Seriously, it's no different than saying 'why tech up to build knights rather than mounted sergeants, given all the expense and time required '. We do so because the more advanced unit has a greater effect. A cardinal might save your general from being the guest of honour at the inquisition's Sunday BBQ, whereas a bishop would have had to have reached for the sick bag; a cardinal preaching instead of a bishop might just provide that little edge that converts a region's religion in your favour enough to provoke/avoid a religious revolt.

Those robes are also really funky and really go well with the hat.

[eadeater]

Personally, I don't use bishops or alims or cardinals much at all. I find that there are better things to spend your money on and better things to strive for when developing your provinces than the reliquary to build the cardinals, as their effect on the game is not as profound as that of better military units or farming/trading/mining improvements which fill the coffers with gold. Essentially, when I conquer a province, the population converts by itself fairly quickly, and a spy would be much more useful in keeping them happy than a cardinal. As for protection against inquisitors, well, a good enemy agent is one that has just died improving one of your assassins.

[Colovion]

It's easier to take over stupid rebellious provinces like Scotland when they're already converted - as well as provinces that will undoubtedly revolt after teh first invasion - when they're converted more or less to your cause. I've been using Alims as the Turks and they work very well at keeping rebellions from happening after invading. It makes for it being easier to be able to take your large stacks out of provinces when they should be out attacking the enemy - not playing cleanup crew with the unrest in a newly conquored province.

[Sinner]

I generally only have one or two cardinals, bypassing bishops entirely. Like Colovion, I often place one in a region I'm planning to invade to make sure the majority are catholic or soon will be. If I have a second cardinal, he's primarily a spare in case the first gets assassinated, occasionally is sent to a second invasion target if I'm being greedy or have to move fast before another faction might muscles in, plus I tend to get touchy about other factions starting to convert my regions and I use him to return the region to 100% catholic as quickly as possible.

[Ludens]

Cardinals are better at raising zeal, so they are useful for crusades. Imams also raise zeal, unlike Alims, so they have their uses too.
But what is the use of Orthodox bishops? They don't need zeal and for conversion it would be cheaper to spam priests. Why use them?

[Sinner]

Cardinals are better at raising zeal, so they are useful for crusades. Imams also raise zeal, unlike Alims, so they have their uses too.
But what is the use of Orthodox bishops? They don't need zeal and for conversion it would be cheaper to spam priests. Why use them?

I assume by zeal you mean population faith - it's only the 2 inquisitor units that raise zeal for catholics, or did this change in v2.01?

Orthodox bishops will convert populations quicker than priests, so it's the same question as why use cardinals over bishops: they do the job better and may provide the edge to save the day. Although I'm assuming that the religious agents have the same restriction of only the highest ranking agent having any effect in a region, the same as how spies now work in v2.01.

[Medieval Assassin]

The feller's do raise zeal.

[Sinner]

Which fellers? Do you mean Cardinals now raise zeal in v2.01? If so, that's them off my shopping list.

[Ludens]

Which fellers? Do you mean Cardinals now raise zeal in v2.01? If so, that's them off my shopping list.

Catholic Bishops, Cardinals and Imams raise zeal as wel as faith. The only exception is the Alim: her raises only faith.

[Sinner]

Catholic Bishops, Cardinals and Imams raise zeal as wel as faith. The only exception is the Alim: her raises only faith.

Are you running a modded version of the game? I just checked the orginal crusaders_unit_prod11.txt file on my v2.01 CD and the only units that effect zeal - as per column 66 of the unit prod file - are both type of Inquisitor & Imans (Ulamas in the file), for catholic & muslims respectively. Cardinals, bishops (both flavours), priests & alims only effect faith.

[Ludens]

Are you running a modded version of the game? I just checked the orginal crusaders_unit_prod11.txt file on my v2.01 CD and the only units that effect zeal - as per column 66 of the unit prod file - are both type of Inquisitor & Imans (Ulamas in the file), for catholic & muslims respectively. Cardinals, bishops (both flavours), priests & alims only effect faith.

I would swear that my bishops and cardinals increased the zeal in my provinces. I have observed it many times that zeal was sky high seemingly without any other cause (except for an occasional inquisitor dropping by). Yes, I do run MedMod 2.04 but I checked the unit files and only (grand) inquisitors and Imams improve zeal.
Strange. Perhaps I should test it when I play a regular MTW campaign again.

[Darth Binky]

I don't use mods (I'm running VI 2.1) and neither of the religious dudes increase zeal.

It does appear that zeal will carry over into nearby provinces. So if you have one that is high zeal with an inquisitor (either flavor) pushing it higher, it'll bleed over into neighboring provinces. I dunno if it does so for sure, but it does appear so.

Also there are a few V&Vs that increase zeal.

But I have been playing as the Spanish, and the HRE and Pope have been huge, and they both keep using lots of high valor inquisitors against me. I am keeping a Cardinal in each province (as well as a couple assassins trained in Syria and a spy to catch enemy assassins, since Cardinals seem to be assassin magnets), and the inquisitors have been much less of a problem. But I haven't seen the Cardinals affect zeal in any way- it still drops over time if the inquisitors go away.

The Muslim ones don't affect zeal either. I always seem to wind up with all my provinces at 0 zeal partway through the game, and there appears to be no way to increase it. :

[sir_schwick]

Inquisitors really raise zeal? I have been using them to drop zeal in my non-crusader territories. It helps whenever my King or Governor becomes a Pervert.

As for Bishops, I love religious agents for spamming. Helps prepare for invasions, draw away assassins,a nd provide cheap intel.

[Productivity]

Inquisitors really raise zeal? I have been using them to drop zeal in my non-crusader territories. It helps whenever my King or Governor becomes a Pervert.

As for Bishops, I love religious agents for spamming. Helps prepare for invasions, draw away assassins,a nd provide cheap intel.

They boost zeal for a while, then it starts dropping off.

[Sinner]

Inquisitors boost zeal until an inquisition starts, then all hell breaks lose and your population get slightly upset with the idea.

The trigger for an inquisition seems to be more time based than an threshold value of zeal - the longer your inquisitor stays inquisiting (probably not a real word but I like it ~:p) in a particular region the greater the chance he'll start getting that urge to turn a few locals extra crispy - else it would be near impossible to get the occasional 90+% zeal.

If this is how inquisitors do work, then to get a high zeal without burning your population, just move the inquisitor every few years, perhaps moving him back and forth between the same two regions so you end up with two sources for well equipped crusades. I've read that there is a zeal cap based upon the piety of the King &/or governor, but since I prefer 0% zeal regions, that doesn't bother me - my Kings are always poor catholics which is appropriate since I play the English.

[BigC5]

So after all that are they worth the extra time and money or not?

[Procrustes]

...

The trigger for an inquisition seems to be more time based than an threshold value of zeal - the longer your inquisitor stays inquisiting (probably not a real word but I like it ~:p) in a particular region the greater the chance he'll start getting that urge to turn a few locals extra crispy - else it would be near impossible to get the occasional 90+% zeal.

....

I recently had a game where I (as the French) ended up with Rome after the Sicilians took it from the Pope and I helped him out with my first Crusade. Zeal in Rome was maxed out afterwards. The turn I created my first inquisitor there he started an inquisition immediately - before I even got a chance to move him! (The inquistion started as soon as he was spawned.) 1600 people burned at once - I felt awful. I've been very careful about moving my inquisitors around since, I keep them away from any of my own provinces that already have high zeal, and when they are "home" I keep them on the move every turn. It's a lot of micromanagement but it works.

(In the French game, the piety of my kings was always very high - I kept alliances w/ the pope, he kept sending me daughters, never got excommunicated, declared crusades as he requested, took the holy lands, etc. Perhaps if I'd been a little less pious this wouldn't have happened, but I like to role play the GA games so it was fun.)

[Procrustes]

So after all that are they worth the extra time and money or not?

Sure they are, but that's just my (humble?) opinion.... ;)

Seriously, they are probably more useful if you are playing one of the factions that can crusade, and if you are playing GA rather than world domination. I like them, but that's me.