Roman units as Aetholians?

[Red Harvest]

The Hastati, Principes, and Triiari show up in custom as Aetholia, but I've not yet been able to build them in any era as Aetholians. What does it take to build these? Is it a province specific thing, or do you have to be completely teched? I've pretty well teched already in Classical (where they are available in Custom)...but still no Roman units, and no indication that building anything will get them. Haven't tried looking them up in the editor.

Big problem I see is that the non-Greek factions are slaughtered by huge waves of hoplites. There is not much that will slow a hoplite/phalanx down except for another hoplite. They are relatively easy to build and readily available, plus there is so much money that before long every province has two or three stacks of them. So in battling non-Greek factions it is a walkover for hoplites. 16 units of hoplites will walk over 16 units of anything non-greek--battle over. I have to attack provinces three times with loads of archers to whittle down the hoplites... And this results in really lousy generals for non-Greeks--good generals don't last long in battle vs. 16 hoplites, even with 8 stars and selective withdrawal (stars start disappearing.) A big part of the problem I've seen playing as Peonians, and Lydians is that not only do the Greek factions get unlimited numbers of hoplites, but they also get great upgrades (metalsmiths and gold armour) that the others don't get. Also, the Greeks get their best units in all provinces while others are limited (esp. Lydians) and can't build enough decent units to keep up. There should be more separation between the low end and high end hoplites in terms of tech requirements--currently I never even build more than a unit or two of base level, since in two or three turns I can tech to build the better ones. I don't think you should get more than lowest level hops until you have done a whole other castle upgrade. Some of this problem is related to the rapid tech tree.

Lots to like here, but some tweaks would be nice.

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

Roman units are only available in MP or Custom Battles NOT in the campaign.


LZoF

[Meneldil]

I've only played with the thracian so far (as a non-greek faction), and it's now more than okay. Of course, hopliton are much more powerful than any barbarian/eastern unit, but with some strategy and management, you can kick their butt to hell.

[Ldvs]

Big problem I see is that the non-Greek factions are slaughtered by huge waves of hoplites. There is not much that will slow a hoplite/phalanx down except for another hoplite. They are relatively easy to build and readily available, plus there is so much money that before long every province has two or three stacks of them. So in battling non-Greek factions it is a walkover for hoplites.

You're right there, the only way to beat the greek factions is to outnumber them at least 3 to 1. I've found out that the only non-greek faction that stands a chance are the Phrygians thanks to their auxiliaries. You still have to outnumber the Greeks though ~:p but it's more playable.

I don't think Illirians, Poenans and Thracians would have survived a long time if the greek cities weren't stabbing each other. Therefore they are easy picks because they were weaker. The only way i see to prevent the greek cities from training masses of hoplites is to increase the up-keep cost, and sink all their ships before they can build drieres or triremes to protect their merchant ships.

[Ldvs]

I've only played with the thracian so far (as a non-greek faction), and it's now more than okay. Of course, hopliton are much more powerful than any barbarian/eastern unit, but with some strategy and management, you can kick their butt to hell.

Yes barbarian factions are nice in the classical age when they get their "piercing armor" units, they really rips the hoplites to shreds. But still, you must have a numerical advantage.

Happy to see another French sneaking around here

[Red Harvest]

I've only played with the thracian so far (as a non-greek faction), and it's now more than okay. Of course, hopliton are much more powerful than any barbarian/eastern unit, but with some strategy and management, you can kick their butt to hell.

You must not be playing on expert. Strategy and management go to hell pretty quick when you face 16 hops on the field all decked out with gold armour and metalsmith weapons upgrades. It would be manageable, except that the hop armies keep coming in waves. You can't outbuild them and time runs out on really huge battles. The real kicker is watching them invade your other provinces, where you have 16 units and a decent general. 8 hops will walk right over them. Not surprising since you can surround an isolated upgraded hop with four spear/melee units and still lose most of your men subduing it (or lose all of them.) The hops don't seem to suffer much from being hit in the side or rear (or rear and both sides simulataneously.)

[Ldvs]

The hops don't seem to suffer much from being hit in the side or rear (or rear and both sides simulataneously.)

Indeed, you must do it though, as it divides their strengh. It is more realistic in my opinion, as it was a bit ridiculous to watch a unit getting raped from behind without fighting in MTW. I agree on the fact that 16 upgraded hoplite units on expert is almost impossible to beat for a non greek faction : some of the barbarian units are even fearful of the hoplites !

The new add-on "persian wars" changes this a bit, as it allows less hoplites. See
the stadium if interested in this new "era".

[Red Harvest]

From the rear or sides, many of these units would be exceptionally weak. If nothing else they would rapidly lose the "clash of shields" and get compressed into a dense tangled mass. Instead, the hops spread out into a wide circle. This is unrealistic, since they should get pushed back by the massed organized ranks attacking them. I think MTW did a much better job reflecting flanking effects. Rear attack on a spear column leaves them completely vulnerable. The rearmost rank will have to confront this virtually alone, and without support.

There was a reason that the phalanx fell out of favour: mobility, they were hard to maneouver meaning that they had trouble pressing home an attack without serious risk of being attacked at the rear or sides. Also, in reality units being attacked from the flank, can only put up a modest defense. There simply won't be many men to confront the threat and the men at the corner are being shoved and stabbed at from two or three directions at once.

The morale effect would be devastating. Pinned at the front, unable to put up a good fight against the side or rear. The tendency would be to fall back from the multiple threats to live a few more minutes (into an even tighter mass.) Didn't Hannibal crush the Roman legions in similar fashion at Cannae? (Not spear units per se, but the effect of flanking on morale to even disciplined troops was clearly demonstrated--and pure spear units would be in even worse shape.) Hannibal was out numbered 2 to 1 and faced disciplined men of high morale. I'm sorry, but MTW got this effect right.

[Red Harvest]

Roman units are only available in MP or Custom Battles NOT in the campaign.


LZoF

Yep, I figured this out when looking in the txt files last night.

Any consideration into making them available for Aetolia in the Classical Period? Perhaps in a specific province(s) like the capital? Perhaps they would require an Inn and/or traders/ports as well as various building types (e.g. Hastati = Inn, spearmakers workshop + armourer's workshop; Principe = Inn, some sort of blacksmith, plus armourer's guild; Triari = Inn, Master blacksmith, Siskines, etc.) It seems a shame not to be able to put some in the field. Yes, I know it wouldn't make sense to have huge numbers of them, but a few would be interesting. Shouldn't some of the Roman units be better in melee in the woods relative to hoplites? That would be a reason to keep a few around if they were available.

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

We put them in for fun because people wanted to play with them and a Roman invasion expansion for HTW was planned but never materialized due to lack of time.
So this was a gesture to the public so to speak,but historically the Roman units appeared much later on the scene in Greece that is why they are not available in the Campaign and as you know from HTW we try to be as historically correct as possible,so i admit it would be fun,but it doesn't fit our own game philosophy.
Soon you will have Roman units as much as you can handle in RTW :-)

LZoF

[flip]

Red Harvest,

I agree with your considerations about rear/side atacks on hoplites. I'm waiting for Komninos ideas about the issue, I had send him a email. Do you have any idea wich columns or stats afect units on this area?

[Marshal Murat]

I played them in the Campaign.
I just had to build quite a few buildings.
And poof, Hastatii, Triarii, Principali, Sagitarii.

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

Everybody happy now,stats are changed...and the new version is up!

LZoF:-)

[IrishMike]

Are the roman units included in the 3.1 version?

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

Yes like i said the new version is up with all the latest files:Romans,reduced economy,Persian War...please read!

LZoF

[Red Harvest]

I played them in the Campaign.
I just had to build quite a few buildings.
And poof, Hastatii, Triarii, Principali, Sagitarii.

I would like to know what buildings got them in the campaign. I've been reading through the unit production files and no building is listed for these units...meaning you can't produce them. Are you sure this wasn't a custom game?

[Ldvs]

He might be joking Red, you said it : "no building is listed for these units"
Or maybe a lucky bug...

[RtS]

Roman units are only available in MP or Custom Battles NOT in the campaign.


LZoF

hi i am new in this forum

i want to know in wich period and wich nation presents the roman units caus i cant find them and why cant they be played on campain? thanx

[Ldvs]

hi i am new in this forum

i want to know in wich period and wich nation presents the roman units caus i cant find them and why cant they be played on campain? thanx

Classical period : Aetolians.
Since when Greeks can train Roman units? They never did, that's why they're not available in campaign. Also look a few posts above for LoZF's answer.

[komninos]

OK here it is ...

Romans are out of the HTW aspect both in time and in place, they are there due to popular demand!!!

So You can only get them in Custom battles or MP battles but not in campaign mode

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Custom battles don't work, but I am more than content with all the historical battles.

[Red Harvest]

Custom battles don't work, but I am more than content with all the historical battles.

Custom battles should work fine unless you have a problem with the install. Quick battles don't work because they are generated by MTW using the original game units.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

nope, custom battles dont work.