RTW demo conclusions: a full summary

[Spartiate]

Gentlemen and ladies you can be damn sure that CA HAVE stopped by to check up on what we have being saying but have no intention of addressing our concerns as i imagine a policey was formulated way back as to what market they were targeting this time.WE are not that market.They are not going to change too much with the game as they are predominantly after a younger clickfest orientated group.
The only bone they have thrown us is the modding kit as they are prettysure from reading these forums that we will mod whatever game they put out anyway.
Sorry about being so negative as i have always been in full support of CA before,but i have really lost hope after playing the demo.

[Red Harvest]

@FBE that's why i bought an fx 5600 xt, runs like a dream. and nvidia's drivers are better.
and yes even on low spec systems it works well ,all my family use nvidia so can't comment on the ati glitch.

Oh please, I had far more problems with nvidia drivers back when I owned one than I have ever had with ATI drivers. I went through four sets of drivers before I found ONE that could run STW on a GF2. The driver myth is just that, a myth. There are differences, yes. There are things that each company does better with their drivers (or with their hardware design--that often gets incorrectly attributed to drivers.) Making blanket statements about them is a bad idea.

[Maeda Toshiie]

Uh, guys, going over to the .com and saying all this may be more effective. I know there are a lot of expert noobs there who saying that CA is god and the demo is all perfect and holy. However, CA is going to be reading a lot over there as well.

TW originally aimed to be a game that redefines strategy games. Now it steps off the path beaten its loyal fans to adopt styles of RTS out there. I had thought RTW should be setting the standards, NOT follow the standards of others.

Majority of the vets at the Org have many issues with the demo. Making yourself heard would be good for the future of the TW series. I really dont wish the only strategy game left that I respect and play to be ruined by noobs.

[Thoros of Myr]

frustration got the best of me - edited

[Lonewarrior]

I find that the original demo is a let down, but the mods that followed made it exiting.

[Maeda Toshiie]

Selling to the old crowd wouldnt earn money. Selling to the kiddies would earn. Simple laws of economics.

Kiddies dont care if the barbarian warchief has a "captain" rank. Or that the Romans use the captain rank for their commanders.

Kiddies want elephants, flaming pigs, head hurlers, druids and screaming women. They dont want to pin with spears and flank.

[Thoros of Myr]

frustration got the best of me - edited

[Servius]

Putting the mouse cursor to the side of the screen should strafe the camera, not rotate it as it currently does. MTW controls provided more options, go back to that control.

The angle of the camera and the zoom level should be seperated. I hate the default swooping camera crap. Make these two camera controls independent again as they were in MTW.

The units may need more color differentiation becaue when two units are engaged in melee it is often very hard to tell the proportion of one side's troops to the other.

Where's the Wedge formation for cavalry? I only see Loose and Tight.

Where's the Hold Formation option? I only see Skirmish and Engage at Will.

The Halt command doesn't order archers to stop shooting. Disabling Fire-at-Will doens't either. You have to move them to make them stop shooting. That's dumb.

The mouse cursor moves very sluggishly across the screen. Not the camera movement speed, the cursor movement speed.

[Jeanne d'arc]

People seem to forget that its still only a demo , the developers have a good months time to make small adjustments before the actual release, i am sure they will fix some issue's listed there.One thing i can say is that from seeing this demo i know that the full game will be ace!

[CBR]

Where's the Wedge formation for cavalry? I only see Loose and Tight.

Where's the Hold Formation option? I only see Skirmish and Engage at Will.

In the left corner you will find the wedge for most cav units. Same place as all special formations the units have: fire arrows for archers, rally for general, cantabrian circle for Numidians etc

The Guard Mode seems to be both hold position and formation in one command.

Edit: and I keep having problems with right/left! I mean right corner ffs :


CBR

[Blodrast]

thanks for the input (and encouragement), everybody
Spino: inserted your issues; I took the liberty of moving the rally hotkey issue into the UI section, hope you don't mind too much ;)
Edit: but then I removed the mouse movement stuff; do the sliders suggested by Arseclown after your post do the job ?

RedHarvest: thank you for the tip; unfortunately, that was not among the things I have personally noticed about the game, but other people's complaints; so I can't test that myself, but everyone with ATI cards who experienced problems, please let us know if RedHarvest's suggestions help or not.

spacecadet: you're right, it's been added now as per Spino's suggestion (the last one).
I've also added your suggestion about full compliance with the old MTW/STW interface regarding unit control.

frogbeastegg: duly noted and added. not sure it belongs in the Graphics section though, but since I can't make up my mind for a better place, I put it there as you suggested

Elmo: it's there, it's there!

big ugly pause box; a screenshot with that on it is worthless.

ok, i'll add a note about its placement too (it only mentions size).
I agree with your point that it would have been nice to see some of the campaign stuff, but I'm afraid it's too late for that...

ah_dut

and OT i've been on the shanghai maglev, 431 km/ph and still don't feel fast so ur analogyy may need working on

Heh, quite possible; I've never been on a maglev, it was really just a figure of speech; I guess I was just trying to point out how sometimes they seem to glide over the land, and the maglev was the first thing that came to mind But you may be right, it's probably not the best choice of words.

Longasc

You did not mention the somewhat worse camera controls of RTW.

Errm, could you be a bit more specific please ? What do you mean by worse ?
Worse as in key assignments or relative key placement ? Worse as in not smooth enough movement ? And movement of what: camera, mouse ?

Maeda Toshiie: agreed @ posting this at the .com as well.
I could do it myself, but it would have more chances of being noticed if someone with more weight did it (admin, mod or at least an older member on the .com board). I'm afraid that my posting it there (can i even post in the most adequate forum as a new member ?) will not help our cause; it will just get lost among a bunch of other threads... if you have any suggestions, feel free to speak up ;)

Servius1234
Your first two options I believe are already included, in the statement about full consistency with the old MTW-style controls.
Wedge formation: IIRC, the cav has wedge formation as a special ability now; so they can still form wedge; haven't tried to see if infantry can (not that you'd want to do that too often), but cav sure can (at least some cav; we don't yet know if that goes for all the cav in the game).
Hold Formation: i don't know about this; are we sure there's not another way to make them hold formation ? did anybody check this ?
Edit: ok, see CBR's post about Hold Formation; I really don't know if there is more to it than that... (i.e. do units always preserve their formation while marching now ? maybe some units (spears) do, but others don't ? You'd think that at least the roman legions should march in order anyway.)).
Agree with you upon the archers issue: they should stop shooting with halt; moving them is not a natural way to fix that. I added that to the list.

Alexander the Pretty Good: noted and inserted.

Thank you very much for the feedback and support, everybody

[Elmo]

People seem to forget that its still only a demo , the developers have a good months time to make small adjustments before the actual release...

If the game is going to be on the shelf in a month it has probably gone gold already or will any minute now. Changes, if any, would have to be in a patch. IOW don't hold your breath.

[Tamur]

People seem to forget that its still only a demo , the developers have a good months time to make small adjustments before the actual release

Well said... public demos merely public demos. Drawing conclusions about the company, the product, and the state of the world in general based on a single demo is a bit beyond what probably ought to be concluded.

Tamur

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Blodrast - don't forget to add about how changing a unit's formation while it is moving causes the unit to stop to change and it doesn't start moving again! That was a small but powerful feature available in MTW/STW - especially with cavalry!

Still, great work. CA, please read this and either fix it or tell us it has/shall be fixed!

[Blodrast]

--insert obligatory and deserved thanks to blodrast--

I'd like to expand on spacecadet's point. I've found that the only way I can adjust formations using the Total War Controls setting is Control-LeftMouse and drag them out. In the Trebia battle however, I grouped 5 phalanx units and, with them selected, tried Control-LeftMouse and the pink dots that showed the new positions weren't in the line I'd dragged out, but were all relative to their current positions. I ungrouped them, selected all 5 and then got the behaviour I wanted. That seems like a bug to me.

Anyone know how to adjust unit facings? Alt-RightMouse was the traditional TW way but I can't seem to find an equivalent in the demo. Ditto with attempts to move a group to a new position and keep its current position/formations. In Trebia last night, I tried to move a group of 2 Sacred Band Cavalry to a new position. Ended up with another group also moving towards that point!

Maybe the attempt to use the old Controls is flawed anyway and I should just get used to the new style. I'll have to give it a go.

ok, i can't test this now, but from what i can remember, i think selecting the unit and then dragging with LMB or RMB (don't remember), reorients the men in that unit
(LMB/RMB = left/right mouse button)

[Red Harvest]

Frogbeastegg and Blodrast,

I am having some difficulty nailing down the oddity with flashing orange triangles on ATI cards. I had it with the default options in 32 bit and 1024x768 and then I had it appear once with higher 1200 and higher detail settings, then I changed settings a bit and it disappeared. I couldn't get it to occur again no matter what I changed--including reboots between. I'm running 4.7 Cats with 98SE at the moment. When if first happened and was bad I noticed "reflections/glints" was disabled in the battle menu, even though I had enabled it in the main menu video options. I also turned up all effects other than anti-aliasing in main menu. One thing I am sure of is that the main menu video options don't always carry over into the battle menu options. In particular I notice the "high quality shadows" are often unchecked in the battle menu, although checked in the main menu. There seems to be some sort of bug in the game interface for these vid settings. I can only conclude that it is an initialization problem that occurs intermittently. It could be driver related, but the mismatch in game settings suggests it is the application at fault. I can't seem to cause or eliminate the problem systematically, so I'm stumped at the moment.

[Blodrast]

thank you, Red Harvest.
I added to the list your point about options from the main menu not carrying over to the in-game menu.
I'm afraid I can't help with the ATI cards; as I said, I don't have access to one myself.

[Red Harvest]

UI Issue-

Charging can be a bit difficult, particularly trying to issue the command against fast moving/running units. The second part of the click is often not on the target unit because they moved... (Reminds me of one of those joke survey boxes where the answer check box moves around when you try to press it.) There is something odd about the "feel" of issuing attack vs. charge. I have to look at the unit box to figure out which one I ended up issuing. I don't have this problem in MTW/VI.

Tutorial-

I think they will need a much more in depth movement/formation tutorial. Honestly though, I never fully mastered MTW's movements. I have gotten very good with a set of tools, but several folks here have mentioned things like chainging facing that I have always done using mouse drags (which can be very tricky and time consuming.) I don't remember them in the tutorials. It might make sense to have an "advanced movement/formation" tutorial.

[Servius]

Bloodrast, cool, thanks bud.

About the Wedge, it seems I was in error. The reason I couldn't find it was because I was trying to apply it to Caesar's command unit in the Tuturial. If Commander units that are also cavalry only get Rally and not Wedge too, I think that should change.

Bloodrast, unless I've missed something a second time, please add: "Allow Commander cavalary units to have the Rally AND Wedge special abilities" or something like that.

[Blodrast]

Red Harvest: noted and added.

Servius1234:valid point. added it.

Thank you for the comments, guys.

[Spino]

Ummm... Spino, there are two, for camera movement speed and camera rotation speed.

Look under camera options.

A.

No no no! I am referring to the mouse speed, NOT the camera speed! When I speak of mouse speed I am referring to the responsiveness and movement rate of the mouse controlled cursor while playing the game. It really is slower than it should be.

Spino: inserted your issues; I took the liberty of moving the rally hotkey issue into the UI section, hope you don't mind too much ;)
Edit: but then I removed the mouse movement stuff; do the sliders suggested by Arseclown after your post do the job ?

Thanks Blodrast, but the mouse movement and slider stuff I mentioned in the above text is completely separate from the camera options. I'm sure you've seen the mouse settings and sliders I'm talking about in other computer games, especially 3D shooters.

[Blodrast]

Spino: gotcha. fixed.

Oh, and btw, it just occurred to me: a good way of making sure that CA gets to see this thread would be to stickify it - until it's been noticed (that _is_ the purpose of this thread, is it not ?)
Of course there is no point in keeping it sticky after 2-3 weeks - at that point it would certainly be too late to make any changes in the final release anyway.

Edit: ofc you can also change the title if you think that would have a better chance of catching their eyes.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Sticky it and start a thread that says "CA DEVELOPERS: READ THIS" and make a link to this thread. That might get their attention

That or storm thier offices.

[Spino]

Spino, I haven't played with this much yet. But this actually makes more sense than MTW's method. It should take the physical intervention of an officer/general to rally most units. Yep, it's a pain in the butt, and won't matter if the fighting/movement speed is so high that you don't have time to do anything. Elite/disciplined units should rally on their own--but rank and file should not. I need to study the implementation of this a bit more.

It is an even greater pain in the butt since you cannot hotkey group a single unit! I tried making my general unit hotkey Group #1 and the game will not accept it! So basically in the middle of combat you may instantly command groups of normal units but in order to access your general and command him to rally the troops you either have to use the mouse in order to select your general unit or cycle through each individual unit with the keys in order. This means precious time is lost before you can directly control the general, let alone rally the troops.

On a different note I've also noticed that 'Exhausted' troops can run! No more trudging about as in MTW. In RTW exhausted infantry units can run at a respectable speed and for a looooong time, almost indefinitely! I played the modded training battle as the Gauls and had a Tired unit of Gaulish archers chased all around the map by an Exhausted unit of Triarii! In all that armor the only thing with two legs an exhausted unit of Triarii should be able to catch is a dead man! C'mon CA, give us a break!

[Spino]

Spino: gotcha. fixed.

Oh, and btw, it just occurred to me: a good way of making sure that CA gets to see this thread would be to stickify it - until it's been noticed (that _is_ the purpose of this thread, is it not ?)
Of course there is no point in keeping it sticky after 2-3 weeks - at that point it would certainly be too late to make any changes in the final release anyway.

Edit: ofc you can also change the title if you think that would have a better chance of catching their eyes.

Thanks again Blodrast!

[Medieval Assassin]

If not already noted:
Whyis it that when an elephant smashes into a line, 15 people fly 10 feet above the elephant, wouldn't they get pushed aside or get knocked down...Why would they fly straight up?

[Thoros of Myr]

Why can footsoldiers no longer form a wedge?

Why do I now have to make my entire army a group to use the group formations? This was not so in MTW.

[Degtyarev14.5]

No no no! I am referring to the mouse speed, NOT the camera speed! When I speak of mouse speed I am referring to the responsiveness and movement rate of the mouse controlled cursor while playing the game. It really is slower than it should be.

Aahh, I see. Okay, point taken. CA, bring on the slider!

But I'd like to make a clarification: you would like to see a slider that controls the rate of movement of the mouse cursor across the screen. Meanwhile, some have complained that the mouse cursor moves sluggishly, and only after a delay. Here we have two separate and unrelated, although superficially similar, issues.

The noted sluggishness is indicative of a struggling system. I found the same whenever I turned all the graphics settings to highest in Battlefield 1942, when I was running an obsolescent GeForce 4 MX 440. Spino's request is a perfectly valid one; however to eradicate mouse delay and general unresponsiveness, people are going to need to either upgrade their systems, or turn down their graphics settings.

I'm sorry, I don't like to be the bearer of bad news, but...

A.

[Oleander Ardens]

Good points here..

Talking about gameplay: I too miss the wedge. Not because it was a good battleformation for infantry, but because it allowed you to move through small gaps, giving the whole formation a more narrow front.

Perhaps CA could add a column for all units. No battle malus or bonus beside the fact that it is vulnerable and can move better and swiftly through gaps, making it easier to use some sound tactics...


Cheers

OA

[Rosacrux]

If not already noted:
Whyis it that when an elephant smashes into a line, 15 people fly 10 feet above the elephant, wouldn't they get pushed aside or get knocked down...Why would they fly straight up?

eye candy, assasin.

W00t, watch da Romanz dude, up the air! W00t! They fly, dude! Coooool! Elies rockz dude