RTW demo conclusions: a full summary

[CBR]

I have always missed the column, not just for one unts but for groups to make faster marching.

I wanted units to have the ability of more than one special formation but I guess thats hoping for too much..


CBR

[SpencerH]

I tried maxing out all the video options and check boxes (except for the screen resolution) while paused in the battle and I did not have the strobe effects.

radeon 9800 128

[Spino]

Got another one for you Blodrast...

6. Game aspect/balance

- Exhausted units should not be able to run indefinitely, especially if they're packing alot of armor. Simply ridiculous. Bring back the old system where exhausted units can only run for a very short distance before walking again. This has been observed by others and mentioned in other threads but I feel it deserves a spot on your list.

[Red Harvest]

Blodrast,

Since the game is going to have time of day and duration settings, we need to add to the UI: Add time of day display to the GUI. We should know what time of day it is. The changes in lighting at different times of the day can be a bit subtle in the game. Presently all I see in the display is the duration timer (this can be enabled by modding), no time of day.

[King Azzole]

Got another one for you Blodrast...

6. Game aspect/balance

- Exhausted units should not be able to run indefinitely, especially if they're packing alot of armor. Simply ridiculous. Bring back the old system where exhausted units can only run for a very short distance before walking again. This has been observed by others and mentioned in other threads but I feel it deserves a spot on your list.

Jesus christ can you please reduce your signature size? I cant even read whats in your damn post cause its blinding. Dont be such a New Yorker...

[Blodrast]

RedHarvest, Spino: added them.

Man, there's something weird going on with the board. It doesn't always show me threads with new posts anymore...wth. I'll post in the Watchtower.

[Colovion]

Everything in the list is perfect.

After playing the demo I thought "crap, this game is going to suck" and basically gave up being excited about it after I'd indulged myself int he graphics a few times. There's so many things they need to fix and the way they're treating their fans doesn't make me think that they're going to pay attention to us. I knew this game was too good to be true. They'll just make it easier to mod and leave it as it is and tell us to do what we want.

If CA does these changes though, I'll have new faith in their PR dept.

Oh and if there were a few main things i'd change it would be:

1) The killing speed and movement speed of units.

2) The ability to totally use the old interface - the new one is too Warcraft and not enough strategy.

3) Have some voice actors that have some talent, and if possible, at least guess the correct accents instead of using some random French guy for the Cartheginians.

[Spino]

Bumpity BUMP!!! ~:p

[cugel]

None of you have mentioned the worst aspects of the UI: What happened to F5, F6 and F7?!!! In MTW we could get rid of all that screen clutter and play without the unit cards at the bottom of the screen the kill ratio & stuff at the top!

And that annoying screen at the left (you know the F5 screen that shows where on the map you are). Is there a way to get rid of it?

Also why are the unit cards so small. Can we get rid of them?

And what happened to F1 which displayed the valor and morale bonuses???

DAMN!

I really don't understand this! Shouldn't we have the ability to go easily go full screen and back again!

Why should the user interface take a STEP BACKWARD! I could see not improving it, BUT MAKING IT WORSE????

The mouse speed problems are also a pain. I'm getting better used to directing my mouse but I hate having to wait for the thing to register (with the game paused too).

Gamespeed: I agree this is a problem.

:

I'm not a happy camper at this point. I suppose I'll wait and check out the game, but I ain't buying it at this point. Not until a lot of this stuff gets fixed. I'm not holding my breath either that we'll get major interface fixes in the patch (if there is one). This game seems to need about 3 months of solid work on the basics!

Oh, well, the MTW: Middle Earth Mod should be ready to roll soon! I'll probably be doing some more work on that instead. Wait till you see the artwork on that! It'll blow your minds. I kid you not!

[The_Emperor]

I agree with Cugel.

I regularly hid parts of the interface I didn't like in MTW and STW... It was a great feature and very good for taking screen shots ot getting a good look at the action.

[Ludens]

BUMP

Shouldn't this be stickyfied? It would be better if we keep all the issues in one place.

[ah_dut]

true, the colloseum is very cluttered with this sort of stuff at the mo.

[sdrga]

Hi Folks:

Don't let my "Member Since" status fool you: I haven't been a regular poster here for a long time for no other reason than life has unfortunately had the nerve to get in the way of my gaming! How DARE it?

Anyway, I'm a regular poster over at the .Com forums and I hope to become more regular here. I wanted to let you know that I think the CA folks spend as much if not more time here than they do over at .Com. I don't see posts from devs over there like I do here. I'd be very shocked if they hadn't looked at this thread. I wouldn't expect them to post here even if they had read it meticulously. Put yourself in their shoes: what do they have to gain by that?

There are, however, some areas of .Com that are frequented more often by devs than others and I will post a link to this thread entitled "CA: Most Rational & Non-hysterical Issues List". This is just some superb work here and my hat is off to all the major participants.

On the issue of the infamous ATI "starburst" effect, the consensus over on the Tech Support thread at .Com is that it is sporadic, difficult to replicate consistently, prevalent on most ATI Radeon boards (mine is also a 9800Pro 128MB and I had a 9600 do the same thing). It's also the consensus that CA has taken note and will have it fixed prior to release: it's just too widely reported and affects too many users to ignore.

Anyway, glad to be back on the .Org after a two year absense, and I hope to continue to make an ongoing contribution. On the .Com side, I'm usually to be found these days on the totally useless but totally obsessive "Official RTW release date speculation thread"

See ya,

sdrga

[V2]

Great thread! First I must say I am as concerned as many after having learned of the demo yesterday and done nothing but played it since then. Can we keep this list going and perhaps make it an official sticky? The more cohesive community concerns are represented the easier it will be for devs to wade through the muck. Just a thought.

I agree with much of whats been said here. I would like to add two issues which I feel fit nicely with this list and by extension touch on an issue raised by many. This might be a bit long but I am trying to be as clear as possible. Here they are..

1: ---> edit: nevermind on this point. I found more key binding options. The rest below still stands! Sorry everyone.

2: ---> I've tried every mode and camera setup in the game and there is simply nothing that works for me. Here is my perfect setup...

2a: - W,A,S,D (strafe L+R, forward, back) -This is covered with current options. Easy enough for me, the most common setup for navigating a 3D game along with #2b. Camera speed slider included, thank you CA!

2b: - Mouselook (viewpoint left, right, up, down) -Now this cant be "on" all the time like in a FPS because we need the mouse cursor nearly as much as we need to move. So, for me the ideal solution is to simply have Mouselook active only when im holding down my key of choice (Right Mouse Button). Holding it down gives me the freedom of movement only seen in the best FPS games. Releasing it gives me my cursor. Advantage #1 is not having to use "screen edge" movement or rotation thus keeping your cursor closer to the action. Advantage #2 you're not confined to a single rotation speed as you are with screen edge or keyboard rotation.

2c: - Left mouse button option (Unit selection, Unit movement, Attack, AND Formation + Facing) Its easier to quickly double left click than double right. This opens up the interface for the above described mouselook.

I do think M:TW had a form of mouselook like what I described above but the implementation wasn't very smooth at all. I only looked up and down with it because rotation was jittery. This leads me into an issue raised by many concerning the demo.

3: ---> The mouse speed issue. Mouse input accuracy is terrible. Sure we need a speed slider and perhaps a filter but this doesn't change poor utilization within the software itself. The TW games have never been the finest on this point and would never pass on any professional or competitive FPS/RTS level. You can feel it even on the menu screen by contrast from the windows desktop. There is latency and a seemingly slow as mud sampling rate. Its honestly really bad and needs to be improved.

In the hopes of a great game!
V2

[Blodrast]

Actually, we've been monitoring comments on the demo here and at the .com forums quite closely. But thanks for pointing out the thread.

This is from a reply from Captain Fishpants to a PM that I took the liberty to send him. By this time, anyway, you've surely noticed that CA has already posted in several threads here at the Org. So we can rest assured that our issues, both good and bad, have been at least noticed, and, to the extent that it's possible, will be addressed.

Thank you for linking to this at the .com, too, sdrga.
so let's just keep the faith for a couple more weeks

[Medieval Assassin]

I just run the game like a dream on supppppper low specs.

190mb of ram
500mhz p3
64 mb card.

GREAT JOB NO LAG!!!!!!!

[ah_dut]

good to see old members coming back to this board, and Medieval Assasain, u are a lucky bugger, it doesn't run that well on my 2.4 ghz 512 ddr 2700 5600xt comp, i'm aware it isn't so cutting edge, but it's mine and i like it, however, i wouldn't call it 'runs like a dream.'

[Spino]

Here's a few more... I suppose they could be filed under 'Bugs'...

AI

- Enemy generals are back to their old, suicidal pre-MTW:VI patched selves. After countless custom battles I've noticed that enemy generals are more interested in frontally charging your troops and fighting to the death than looking for an exposed flank to charge or even sitting back and waiting a bit before engaging. Given that general units are now weaker than in STW & MTW the need for them to better pick and choose their fights is critical! In fact, now that I think about it I cannot recall a single battle where the enemy general survived!

- Cavalry AI - Perhaps it's just me but I've noticed that enemy cavalry doesn't seem to be as interested in charging, withdrawing and regrouping and then recharging your troops as it was in patched versions of MTW:VI. Why was it done away with?

- Retreat AI - Maybe certain AI routines have been crippled or disabled for the sake of the demo but enemy units are not withdrawing from battle when they should. When the battle's conclusion is no longer in doubt enemy units that either haven't been routed or have been routed and rallied remain on the field and do not retreat off the map unless routed once more. Too many times I've massacred the enemy army only to have to use my remaining cavalry to find and rout the remaining units too stupid to figure out when run away and live to fight another day. Once again, this seemed to work better in MTW:VI, why was it changed? Perhaps the demo battles are considered by the AI to be 'back against the wall' fight to the death affairs for both sides?

- Phalanx movement - The AI does not quite grasp the nuances of the phalanx. For basic stuff it's fine however it doesn't quite know to turn it off, readjust the formation to a different direction and then turn it back on for optimal effect. I had a situation where most units had left the field except for a depleted Poeni Infantry in phalanx formation unit and a few of my roman legionaries as well as my General's unit. The only unit near the Poeni Infantry was my General's cavalry unit. I was toying with them and galloped my general's unit behind the phalanx, forcing them to change their facing. Rather than simply disabling the the phalanx and turning rapidly to face my cavalry the Poeni infantry did some crazy maneuver where it was creeping towards my cavalry while turning in the process. It looked odd, almost as if the unit was resembling the locomotive behavior of an amoeba.

[Daevyll]

Enemy generals are back to their old, suicidal pre-MTW:VI patched selves. After countless custom battles I've noticed that enemy generals are more interested in frontally charging your troops and fighting to the death than looking for an exposed flank to charge or even sitting back and waiting a bit before engaging. Given that general units are now weaker than in STW & MTW the need for them to better pick and choose their fights is critical! In fact, now that I think about it I cannot recall a single battle where the enemy general survived!

This is quite a major issue, because besides the impact it has in the tactical game it will also make the game far too easy at the strategical level.
If the AI persists in throwing away its experienced generals, that will leave it with only novice leaders after a few turns, and far too easy to beat.

[Blodrast]

Hmm, Spino, from what you're saying I gather you've been playing mods.
Remember that the AI's for the demo are pretty much hard-coded; the carthaginians may appear stupid in many aspects simply because they don't rely on a fully-fledged AI; even the romans probably don't have one, although they do have some scripted actions they will follow no matter what, which should make up for the lack of the full AI (at least in part).

How many and which of the things you mentioned apply to the original demo ?
IIRC, it was pretty clearly stated and agreed upon that in the demo the AI is simply following a script, nothing fancy or subtle. Since carthaginians are meant to be played by the human, they probably rely on a very infantile AI, and don't make the best of choices...

[Spino]

Hmm, Spino, from what you're saying I gather you've been playing mods.
Remember that the AI's for the demo are pretty much hard-coded; the carthaginians may appear stupid in many aspects simply because they don't rely on a fully-fledged AI; even the romans probably don't have one, although they do have some scripted actions they will follow no matter what, which should make up for the lack of the full AI (at least in part).

How many and which of the things you mentioned apply to the original demo ?
IIRC, it was pretty clearly stated and agreed upon that in the demo the AI is simply following a script, nothing fancy or subtle. Since carthaginians are meant to be played by the human, they probably rely on a very infantile AI, and don't make the best of choices...

Yes Blodrast, the demo battles are scripted... to a point. But I'm not talking about the default demo battles. I've played tons of custom battles with varying forces (Julii vs. Gaul, Senate vs. Julii, Gaul vs. Carthage, Carthage vs. The Senate & Gaul, etc., etc.) on numerous maps (using the mods you can fight on all kinds of different maps, not just the Tutorial and Trebia battlefields) and the AI doesn't exhibit any kind of scripted behavior that I can detect. If the Tutorial and Trebia scripts were still in effect the armies would be following the same marching patterns and whatnot that they do in the demo's default battles but they don't. I've even seen the attacking AI split its forces to take on my smaller Carthaginian army and the similarly sized one controlled by my Gaulish ally! Once the battle begins the first thing you notice is the AI carrying out its attack or defense strategy based upon your position and the available terrain. Based upon my experiences I believe the AI was acting unfettered by any pre-generated scripts. Hell, I've even noticed the AI on defense making the same mistakes it did in previous Total War games by constantly shuffling its units back and forth up to the last minute, even when you haven't changed your axis of attack!

But I sincerely hope you are right and the AI was crippled for the demo's sake but it wasn't then veteran Total War gamers are going to be in for a rude shock. It is my observation that the tactical AI actually seems worse than it was in the last patched version of MTW:VI. This is NOT a good thing.

The only thing that will persuade me to believe otherwise is a developer posting in this thread explaining how the demo's AI differs from that found on the retail release version (which, by the way, is on the verge of going gold).

[Colovion]

sticky this please?

Chreshian Aarcherss has a point...

[Jambo]

2: ---> I've tried every mode and camera setup in the game and there is simply nothing that works for me. Here is my perfect setup...

2b: - Mouselook (viewpoint left, right, up, down) -Now this cant be "on" all the time like in a FPS because we need the mouse cursor nearly as much as we need to move. So, for me the ideal solution is to simply have Mouselook active only when im holding down my key of choice (Right Mouse Button). Holding it down gives me the freedom of movement only seen in the best FPS games. Releasing it gives me my cursor. Advantage #1 is not having to use "screen edge" movement or rotation thus keeping your cursor closer to the action. Advantage #2 you're not confined to a single rotation speed as you are with screen edge or keyboard rotation.

Hi V2,

This also was something that deeply bothered me, however, I'm pleased to say I can help you with this. If you go into the preferences.txt file in the Rome Demo folder you should find one fo the lines that goes something like this:

CLASSIC CONTROLS:FALSE

Change this to TRUE and your rmb will then act as a mouselook when held down.

Happy dayz :D

[Colovion]

notice how the screen edge mouse camera movement is flawed in that you can barely strafe anymore - it's like the bottom 5% of the screen, not the bottom 50% of the screen that is used to strafe. Using the old controls are useless when they aren't even the old controls.

[Medieval Assassin]

WOAH, This could be a VERY BIG BUG! I was modding a round a little with a nice mod maker ( From Lord Bloody Gore ) I was useing the Romans Vs the Guals on the tourial map, I attack over the bridge and got about 100m from the bridge when That battle went horrible, so I feel back what units I could by clicking on the other side of the bridge, why I sacrifice 1-2 units to hold them off, LO AND BEHOLD! The units I clicked to go on the bridge, ran fast as they could, missed the bridge and all dissipeared into the water... aobut 200 men drown... This has happened more then once, any one else encounter?

[V2]

Hi V2,

This also was something that deeply bothered me, however, I'm pleased to say I can help you with this. If you go into the preferences.txt file in the Rome Demo folder you should find one fo the lines that goes something like this:

CLASSIC CONTROLS:FALSE

Change this to TRUE and your rmb will then act as a mouselook when held down.

Happy dayz :D

Hi Jambo. Thanks for trying to help but this mode in R:TW is completely broken. Atleast in M:TW you didnt lose functionality when using it, as jittery and useless as it was. In R:TW its smoother in operation but with a loss of critical functionality. Try it out if you havent its broken! :)

First, you can no longer set facing and formation depth.. oops BIG problem (this is why I outlined a "left click option" above). Next when you click and hold the right mouse BTN you can look around BUT your camera movement keys no longer function. You get stuck in that single location mouselooking.. really lame.

Its as if CA have no experience with 3D environment games and the standard movement system they all employ. It would work with either RTS or TW camera styles. The difference would be if you look down and move forward with the RTS style camera your perspective would remain at the same height. In TW camera mode you would have 3 dimensions of freedom and looking down + moving forward would cause you to lower your perspective.

Movement and Strafe keys should remain active even when holding down the mouselook key so you can easily move around the battlefield in a fluid manner.

I really hope they get this right!
V2

[Blodrast]

Hmm, well, since the game is/should be going gold soon, we can probably close this thread. If the things you guys mentioned were to be addressed, I'm sure they must have been addressed by now. Once the game is gold, these things will most likely not get changed.

At any rate, everybody posting in this thread, you gave absolutely great feedback, so thank you very much for that, and let's hope we see a full version with all the things we wanted in it !

Keep your fingers crossed, and in the meantime, have a

Edit: it will sure be useful to keep the thread around, just in case some of the problems don't get fixed and find their place in a patch.

[Colovion]

I shall have that beer tonight.

If these things aren't adressed right away... well let's just say I hope there is a patch that remedies some...

[d6veteran]

The demo was a dissapointment.

This is a great list -- I agree with everything updated to the first post.

RTW is going to be a fun game but I fear it will also be full of frustration for us TW veterans and historical wargaming fans. In my opinion CA has been billing this game as a tactical battle simulator and at the same time dumbing down many aspects to appeal to the masses (it's like they want there cake and eat it too).

Or maybe as someone pointed out they are just assuming the 'grognard' community will mod it?

Not sure if this bothers anyone else, but while zooming in is very cool and looks great, I was bummed to see my legionnaires hacking and slashing in a loose melee with their short swords instead of maintaining a firm shield wall and thrusting. The Roman war machine was a methodical and disciplined killing formation of Legionnaires and I was really hoping to see that in the engine.

I was thrown off by the speed issue when I first played the demo ... after playing tons of modded battles I am not convinced it will be as big of an issue as I originally suspected. Nevertheless, why take out the speed slider and make the base speed slow. Variable speed is pretty standard fare for all flavors of RTS games.

I greatly dislike the white routing banners.

Again, great list. Hopefully the game will be highly moddable.

[Kraxis]

I'm surprised that people actually complain that the units don't speak their native languages...

Tell me, how did the Iberians say "Advance?" Or how about a Scythian "Shoot"? Or even better, what about a Numidian "Charge"? Even a Cathagenian "Engage"... Anyone who can tell me? No? And why not? Because we don't know what their languages were... No written language (for most of them) = no local history = no certain knowledge of their current state = no knowledge of their langauge.
The result would be that we would get latin (which we don't know for sure how was pronounced), greek, celtic, germanic, egyptian and a number of perhapses.

No, the languages are impossible. Accents could be better though, but I don't find the carthies speak with a french accent at all. And Creshian Archerss... Well tell me how they should say it.