TotalWar has gone to the Dark Side

[Papewaio]

Pape's Rant

'Yes father I will join you and kill the Emperor' Luke deciding that losing a hand was enough.

RTS or not an RTS?

'No, its not an RTS its still total war! Total War with super cool graphics!'

Lets skip over the voice acting when clicking on units reminding us of the surly Orc from Warcraft.

Or the glowing green arrows which are reminding us of CnC clones and the undead from Return of the King.

Or the green arching arrows and day-glo postioning of troops looks rather gamey.

Or that things are now special abilites which you used to be able to do to any unit. Such as wedge, loose formation, hold your ground, hold formation and of course stop routing. Because we all know that an army only rallies around the comander and not the NCOs... so rally is now a special ability of the commander. Forget about flexibility, one click is all it takes.

Or that the speed of combat is now more like Starcraft. Physics looks awesome, men flying into the air. Just that the battle is over before you even realise it has begun. Men decked out in armour, full shield and spear hover across the battlefield running like Mercury, they flow like quicksilver sprinting after vanishing foe.

Or that the camera mode is called RTS. Nope not an rts clone it is RTW!

----

I'm not worried despite the history of minimal patch support. CA has a four aces with the modability of the game, help of the designers, fans who can mod and the fact it is after all Rome warfare.

I do think we should call a spade a spade. This is far closer to being a comic style RTS then the atmospheric STW. We now have Rome:RTS.

It is a bit like Hollywood movies and sequels which rely on bigger special effects and less on plot. Lots of pretty sequences and not a lot of immersion. Welcome to Total War III bigger, brighter and so much more unique!

[Nerouin]

I preordered it today.

[Shahed]

Well written and expressed Pape, I'm in total agreement with you.

However, we still have to see the game itself. Who knows once the strat map is included it may be more immersive and more deep. The two qualitites that all hardcore strategy gamers look for.

[Elmo]

Pape's Rant

...I'm not worried despite the history of minimal patch support. ...

I am. If they plan to make us buy an expansion pack for bug fixes like they did with MTW then they won't get my money.

[Papewaio]

I still don't have VI...

[Sjakihata]

I expect at least two official patches, that alters a lot of bugs and fixes / adds different stuff.

If that happens I shall gladly buy Babarian Invasion

[ah_dut]

agrred i'll say, i'll buy an expansion pack if it fixes annoying bugs. but hey that should be free

[1dread1lahll]

I too stand in fear of what may come. I can not understand now a successful game which stood as the sole leader in a field which noone else could even hope to follow, suddenly decides to to become a follower of an inferior line of games cranked out in mass, in a attempt to lure a class of people which have in the past never before showed any intrest in the Total War gene. Ive always been proud to say that ive never played any other game on-line, and even more so to say that 'I wouldt play that crap', to those who tried to push AOE stile stuff on me. I hope those people will not have reason to mock my words with RTW'S release.

[Steppe Merc]

Pape I fear you may be right... they want a bigger crowd so they forget about the old crowd. Case in point: all the newbies at the .com are loving it. Hopefully we will be able to mod and fix most if not all of the stuff.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Mods are not a solution for MP... and fixes, if that means patch, we'll get a single one, and we'll need a strong consensus on it; that's not going to happen. If that means buying an expansion; well, I got to buy RTW first, and it's not a done deal yet.

I really really hope they screwed up the demo badly with a poor battle and a poor unit selection. I hope they won't screw up the whole game that way.

Louis,

[Duke John]

They say it will moddable, but the demo is unmoddable because all the data and images are "zipped". Sure you can change some numbers or switch units, but that is nothing more than changing armies. I want to make ME:TW 3D, but
I'm still doubtfull wether units can be given completely different looks and animations. As it stands now the modders are completely dependant on how much CA is going to give toolwise, I don't like that. If the game cannot be modded to at least the same extent as M:TW, then I will leave the 3D graphics for what they are and just stick with M:TW.

And I agree completely with the cursor effects, commands with voice acting and the speed of those heavily armoured troops, they make the game resemble too much like a standard RTS.

But oh boy, if the game is moddable then I'm in heaven

[Thoros of Myr]

As of now my sole hope for the game rests on what can/cannot be done with mods & patches and how much of an affect the full campaign will have on the gameplay. Who knows, the strat map may well be watered down as well, or it could be a redeeming factor that helps bring the rest of the game into balance. The future is more uncertain then ever.

[Lucius Lucullus]

Pape I fear you may be right... they want a bigger crowd so they forget about the old crowd. Case in point: all the newbies at the .com are loving it. Hopefully we will be able to mod and fix most if not all of the stuff.

My thirteen year old brother went like this the other day: "OMG!1!1!!!! Have U cn dat game dat Rome Total War OMG!!1!1!!

My reaction: yes why?

My brother: OMG!1!!!!!! its so kool, did they really have flaming pigs

Me: Yes, at least in one documented battle did the Romans set pigs on fire to scare the elephants, and it was......

My brother OMG!!!!!!11!!1!!!!, that is awsome, that is great that one can play as in history, OMG!!!1!1111!!! Im gonna be Caesar

Me: You seem a bit excited about this game, I didnt know you had an interest in history...

My brother: This is soooo kool, I didnt know history was this exciting, this game will be better then Warcraft OMG!111!!!!1!, and the elephants are just über, they are like tanks, OMG !!!1!!1!

Me: Well they did have a terrifying effect on the horses and.....



Well I hope you get my drift, it really seems as if CA have made a "smart" marketing strategy, by angling for the 10-15 year olds (one of the strongest marketing groups when it comes to computer games) while retaining enough realism to appeal to the "grognards".

Yes hopefully we can mod this game into something that more resembles history.

[GFX707]

Couldn't they have just included a button in the options for something akin to "arcade mode" called "f*ckwit mode" that makes it gamey and RTSlike for the masses and left it realistic for us oldschool totalwar'ers?

I hope things change in the final release....

[Maeda Toshiie]

I have been trawling through the RTW demo forum. I fear that what Pape is saying is right. Of course there are some vets (miraculously appeared over there) claiming that things are sweet. However, I dont like the way things are going, not just the speed.

1. Where is the kill ratio display?

2. The controls are dumbed down.

3. There is an arcade mode... (WTF?! just what kind of message are you sending out?)

4. The mini map suck

5. Why are they adopting so many things from other RTS out there?! Even a bottom menu bar like SC/WC/C&CGenerals. I want big fat unit tabs displaying everything clearly.

I am praying hard that CA would have an advanced mode with the old TW functionalities preserved. Else, that piece of kiddy game aint gonna make me fork out my cash to buy.

*edit*

Another point I forgot: Romans speak Latin, not English. If STW had samurai speaking in english I wouldnt have bought the game.

[Thoros of Myr]

Maeda Toshiie, the kill ratio display is still there, next to the mini-map. It' very small and fuzzy looking now.

[Thomas Davie]

Pape I fear you may be right... they want a bigger crowd so they forget about the old crowd. Case in point: all the newbies at the .com are loving it. Hopefully we will be able to mod and fix most if not all of the stuff.

I'm not a newbie. I own Shogun (although I never played it; similar with MTW). I just figured I owed support to a company that could crank out products this good. I never played em because I *hated* the subject matter or area of history.

Roman history I love, and so I snapped up the demo. Is it perfect, of course not. But I do think that you are deluding yourself with regard to what the game is (or isn't). The tactical combat, despite what you think, is only half of the game. And you know what? It still takes me a few hours ot play the game (yeah I pause a LOT).


I've got this one pre ordered.

Tom

[Maeda Toshiie]

Maeda Toshiie, the kill ratio display is still there, next to the mini-map. It' very small and fuzzy looking now.

Thanks, but it is very difficult to see. Plus, it seems to take into account of your allies' kills and deaths. Not good. MTW only takes into account of your army's kill ratio, not your allies. If wanted to, then 2 separate bars please.

"Roman history I love, and so I snapped up the demo. Is it perfect, of course not. But I do think that you are deluding yourself with regard to what the game is (or isn't). The tactical combat, despite what you think, is only half of the game. And you know what? It still takes me a few hours ot play the game (yeah I pause a LOT)."

Believe it or not, it is the battlefield system that makes or breaks the game. The strategy part will always play second fiddle to the battles (thats why STW holds dear to so many). People want to play total war, not total economics or total quartermaster. A strategy side which is as complicated as Civilisation would bore people out completely.

The issue of speed extends out to the multiplayer as well. You cant pause during a multiplayer battle.

[Leet Eriksson]

to MP players, there is no strategy part so the battle system is what will make or break the MP community.

[The Wizard]

From what I've seen here in the demo, the all-important atmosphere does not seem to have been preserved.

To me, MTW was slightly less atmospheric than STW, but had more than enough atmosphere nevertheless. I remember playing MTW's demo, and thinking "Hmmm, this game is ok I guess, pretty nice combat and such, but not as immersive as it could've been." Imo, the full version delivered quite nicely on the immersion factor.

Now, with the RTW demo, I don't feel very immersed at all. Beautiful graphics and all that, but very annoying voice-acting and unit responses (which is totally not needed for a TW game; following the road set by STW and MTW in this area would have been more than enough), and combat that is a few notches too fast to be immersive for my liking.

Now, I expect RTW to have a higher degree of immersion than the demo, like MTW did. Still, I'm worried that the combination of not all that spectacular music, bad voice-acting and historical innacuracy will mar the game to such a degree that it'll miss a load of immersion it could've easily had.

Slow the game down to the MTW pace (fast enough for me; it could get confusing at times, especially online against human players... "Huh? I thought those chivalric knights were doing great a few moments ago..."), get some high-quality voice-actors that sound good doing voices for characters in a language that wasn't to be spoken for at least 1500 years, and get the TC music for the Romans and Carthaginians (since we don't know how the other music of the game sounds), for that sounded a lot more epic than what I've heard.

P.S. WarCraft III may not be as deep as a TW game, but at least it managed to keep the atmosphere of its predecessors while introducing a shitload of new features and other stuff, and making the transition to 3D. I wonder if Rome will be able to do so in its switch from pixels to polygons...



~Wiz

[Red Harvest]

The problem with all these RTS noobs: THEY ARE FICKLE!!! The RTS crowd is full of people with attention deficit disorder. If CA is banking on them then there is one big problem, the noobs will be interested for a few weeks, then drop it for one of the other 30 RTS titles released each year. By comparison, strategy types stick around and continue to recruit other thinking types to the game for years. I still play STW/MI at times...but while I enjoyed Starcraft, once I played through the different species once each, I was done with it, and that was years ago.

[Thoros of Myr]

Yep, that's the nature of mass market games Red Harvest. They want something fast, and easy and cheap thrill and then it's on to the next one. No time, skill or effort required, and also no reward.

[DemonArchangel]

IMO, CA's becoming more RTS like just so that they can sell to the warcraft crowd to pay for the $25 million development cost of RTW

[Maeda Toshiie]

@DemonArchangel

Are da Naked of .com? If you are, nice to see you!

I think you hit the mark. CA has to sell in order to pay for the dev cost. The RTS crowd will buy the game, play for a few weeks and dump the game. CA keeps the money and be happy. Besides, not so many grumpy old men to overload their multiplayer server.
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Gotta get some of this off here. Cant say anything like this at .com

[DemonArchangel]

Yo dude, I don't have a membership at the .com and i really
LOATHE .com-ers.

[Thoros of Myr]

Some of the "expert noobs" have actually been banned at the .com becuase they can't hold thier tongue and basicly lack substantiated argument material. funny :) The amount of pissed off poeple over the demo is at a boiling point, there is no way CA can NOT know about many people being dissappointed with the changes.

[Satyr]

Now I am way bummed. Just because I visit the .com sometimes I am to be hated.

Sometimes there are better conversations there than here. We aren't all noobs there. And I have been a member here for years too.

Too bad about RTW though. Let's hope it's easily moddable.

[Thomas Davie]

Believe it or not, it is the battlefield system that makes or breaks the game. The strategy part will always play second fiddle to the battles (thats why STW holds dear to so many). People want to play total war, not total economics or total quartermaster. A strategy side which is as complicated as Civilisation would bore people out completely.

The issue of speed extends out to the multiplayer as well. You cant pause during a multiplayer battle.

The battlefield system is not what makes or breaks the game for me, and I would wager other people as well. To me, 'Total' implies tactical, grand-tactical. operational and strategic, as well as economic; at least it does to me.

The fact that you can't pause during a multiplayer battle is of no concern for me, since I don't play multiplayer gaming other than turn based PBEM. I use the pause function to essentially make the game turn based. It works for me.

Since i never played STW or MTW, the camera angles and controls are a complete no issue for me.

Tom

[Thoros of Myr]

Since i never played STW or MTW, the camera angles and controls are a complete no issue for me.
Tom

Well Tom, I'm sure you are giving your completly honest opinion and there is nothing wrong with that


But it's hard to appreciate the past if you've not experianced it.

[nightcrawlerblue]

I really liked the demo and a lot of those things are small.

Units talking when you select them? Who cares? Sure it might get a little annoying (actually I never noticed them much) but geez it's a VERY VERY tiny portion of battle. I prefer the fast-paced battle kind of because now games won't take as obscenely long times. I always thought that MTW's combat was too slow. I mean, it takes 3 minutes to kill a measly 30 guys! How long do you have to shove a spear at someone before somebody is killed?!