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Thread: Game Speed Considerations

  1. #1
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Game Speed Considerations

    I think CA's programmers are stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one (not completely of their own making.) We have to consider the objective of a new graphics engine: Great graphics with 3d in place of 2d sprites, large number of soldiers, bigger maps/more space. At the same time the pace can't be too sluggish and it should be possible to speed up battles at times. Also, they wanted better AI control of units.

    Ok, as has been pointed out in previews and in another thread some of these things are mutually exclusive and require compromise. Run and charge speed for units are a bit higher and that helps with the big maps. Ironically, that reduces the effective size of the map.

    It is going to be tough for CA to slow down the action. Why? Have you tried to run "triple speed" to advance things during a battle? What I see is that triple speed is slow as far as acceleration goes, yet it is not smooth. It also is disabled back to 1x for camera movement, etc. This indicates that higher acceleration levels might be too taxing on the base engine. So if they slow units down, this effect is only going to get worse, because the graphics engine and position calcs will still require the same number of cycles, just having slower movement rates at each step. If you cut movement speed in half, then the 3x becomes 1.5x effective--that is your maximum "real" acceleration. Now to execute pre/post engagement moves takes 2x as long--and this is usually most of the "time" in battle. This is going to make some battles unnecessarily long in the late stages (tediously driving off armies of horse archers comes to mind.)

    The demo gives a poor impression of the speed of the base engine because of the high experience units killing at a stupendous speed (Hastati and Carthaginian cav.) Things get manageable with 1 exp units where kill rates are plausible. Of course, in full game battles you will have upgrades, commanders, and experienced units--so things could get overly fast for them.

    The real stumbling block appears to be that max acceleration is quite low (probably by necessity.) There does not appear to be enough dynamic range with which to work. Perhaps, this is just a limitation in the beta, but my impression at 3x is that it will be difficult to allow more acceleration.

    Side notes:
    It would be interesting to play whole battles from the camera view of the general. I'm not sure if this is practical though, because I don't think you will be able to position many units this way because the view angle will be so shallow and blocked by any minor obstructions/ overlapping unit select fields. You will not be able to select a unit or piece of terrain that you can easily see from the general's saddle. And your can't really get the feel unless you are using flags or trumpets for signals, or sending runners to officers, etc.

    From what little I can tell about the AI at this point, it is unlikely to be any better than MTW was at managing troops to use their skills. Skirmishers are actually a bit worse from what I've seen since the run rates are so fast it completely screws with them and they run. The general's cav charges into spear fronts. Roman units with pila often don't use them when they should. At this point, I don't get the impression that I'll have any less need to micro manage the battles. It would be nice to give general commands like, "Advance with units X,Y,Z on the left flank and wheel to engage; use units A,B,C to hold the center; cavalry stay on the flanks to prevent flanking by enemy cav or infantry; skirmishers throw a few javs into the approaching infantry then withdraw behind our infantry and continue firing away; archers target infantry (etc.)" I don't think we are there yet.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  2. #2
    robotica erotica Member Colovion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game Speed Considerations

    I wish that it was a little slower (obviously) but mainly that the killing was slower.

    Another thing that irks me is there isn't a slider to adjust the speed to a percent, it's just 1x 2x 3x....

    maybe I'll get over it.
    robotica erotica

  3. #3
    Member Member Tim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game Speed Considerations

    I have to agree with what has been said about the game speed, just having played the demo. It is too fast. This has got to be addressed. Of course, its just the demo, but my battles (Trebia) last about a minute before the issue is decided.
    "Carthago delenda est!" Cato the Elder

    Remark made that in the enemy's country, "If you don't take anything, you feel you've forgotten something." Captain J.R. Coignet, Napoleonic Era.

    "Is not your Majesty surprised?" [i.e., at the outcome of Waterloo]. Napoleon replied, "No, it has been the same thing since Crecy."

  4. #4
    robotica erotica Member Colovion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game Speed Considerations

    My battles go like this:

    Position troops
    Romans attack
    cav/ele charge in
    Romans Rout

    And all in about 30 seconds from the first engagement.
    robotica erotica

  5. #5
    Lord, Cartographer and Poet. Member King Azzole's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game Speed Considerations

    Regarding the general view: There are preset formations you can hit a hotkey to tell your troops to take up. Also you will need to use the general to ride to "hotspots" to direct teh action more specifically. I guess that was how it was in real life. Napoleon would situate himself on a high hill above the battlefield so he could observe what was going on and issue orders as it progressed.
    Charge, repeat as necessary.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Game Speed Considerations

    We must remember to take everything into account. There are units with stupid level upgrades and the battle has almost half started to begin with. I agree, it all ends too fast. However I see no reason to speed the units up due to map size, I thought the whole idea of bigger maps was to allow more manoeuvres, the last thing I want is this deployed in your face nonsense that we've had to date

    .......Orda

  7. #7

    Default Re: Game Speed Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by Colovion
    I wish that it was a little slower (obviously) but mainly that the killing was slower.

    Another thing that irks me is there isn't a slider to adjust the speed to a percent, it's just 1x 2x 3x....

    maybe I'll get over it.

    One thing that i've found that really does the trick as far as reducing the kill speed is to increase armor ratings whilst keeping weapon ratings on units low. Try it out -- it'll drastically reduce the kill rate of units.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Senior Member RTKLamorak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game Speed Considerations

    I think missile units should break as fast as they do, or very close to it.... i just get sick of pavs/xbow's holding for huge lengths of time in MTW/VI. A well timed charge should devastate a vunerable missile line, but in mtw they just sucked into the unit, killing far to slowly imo (talking about online play here).

    I do hope they dont just completely mess up the killing/movemnt speed in RTW after reacting to this huge online outcry the last few days, by not thinking through the changes they will most surely make before the final release. Id rather wait a further 2 weeks, or even a month for them to get it right.

  9. #9
    robotica erotica Member Colovion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game Speed Considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by RTKLamorak
    I think missile units should break as fast as they do, or very close to it.... i just get sick of pavs/xbow's holding for huge lengths of time in MTW/VI. A well timed charge should devastate a vunerable missile line, but in mtw they just sucked into the unit, killing far to slowly imo (talking about online play here).

    I do hope they dont just completely mess up the killing/movemnt speed in RTW after reacting to this huge online outcry the last few days, by not thinking through the changes they will most surely make before the final release. Id rather wait a further 2 weeks, or even a month for them to get it right.
    I trust that they will wait for a while for people to catch on to the new gameplay and change anything that needs changing in the first patch.

    Something that CA needs to understand is that for a game like this that brings in loads of people and is no longer the darkhorse that MTW and STW were is that they will need to be pretty up to date with patches or they will lose sales because of reviewers and gamers like us constantly saying "CA really let us down by not releasing patches as needed". Think of how many patches have come out for all of the other major RTS games. Starcraft? like 9 by now. Age of Mythology has 7 or something and it's pretty new. Then again if they polish it well they need less patches, but they will need to be a lot more involved in the community than they have been in the past if they want a good repour after this game has been out for a few weeks.
    robotica erotica

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