Testing: Phalanx vs. Roman Infantry

**Red Harvest** · 08-26-2004, 21:50

Ok, I've been doing some testing with mods to the demo, to see how low level Carthaginian Phalanx compare to the Hastati, Princeps, and Triarii. Method: Set generals to 0 experience, get rid of general units and all others--so the general becomes part of one of the base infantry units, not suicidal cavalry. Use relatively barren winter map from the mods, get rid of scripting. Use three units of phalanx vs. three of Roman (AI). Set each to 1 experience, and 1 armour, 0 weapons. Use 6-7 deep Phalanx formations of 100 men vs. 100 man Roman units. Try all Hastati, Princeps, and Triarii in successive battles. Then switch to Roman side and try Hastati and Princeps as Romans (more on this in a minute.) I ran my phalanxes around a bit to make sure they were near the same level of fatigue of the Roman units, then met in single line battle. All fighting was initially head-to-head. I did not attempt flanking or try to win, I only tried to keep the lines reasonably dressed. All testing performed on "medium.

Results:
1. The Phalanx bested each of the Roman units in every test.
2. The Hastati seemed to hold out a bit longer than the Princeps (I tried a couple of combined H, P, T tests.) But both were soundly beaten, though neither were "crushed." Kill rate was about 1.75 to 1 vs. these units.
3. The Triarii put up a very good fight. Kill rate was about 1.25 to 1 vs. them. Still, they lost as I would expect going head-to-head.
4. The AI failed to use the pila. Even though I held the phalanx still near closure. The AI charged every time (and tried to charge when I was controlling the Roman units and trying to throw pila!) This gets back to the serious defects in the AI's skirmisher/javelin routine. The difference between the charge/attack threshhold and the missile range are insufficient for practical use--certainly for proper AI use. It doesn't make sense for hastati to charge a stationary phalanx until their pila are exhausted.
5. When I used the pila I was able to do considerable damage (10 -20% casualties). Still, my Roman units lost in melee afterwards.
6. For the phalanx I could not tell that "guard" had any effect at all. I saw the same movement and relative kill rates.
7. The Roman units did work some men in the seams and behind. They would wedge between phalanxes. With follow on units this would be devastating to the Carthaginians.
8. When the AI Romans charged the spear wall of the phalanx they rarely suffered more than one or two casualties before slamming into the shields--often the phalanx suffered as many or more casualties taking the charge. It is my strong opinion that attacker casualties should be much higher for the initial push/charge into the front of a spear wall. This should better balance the phalanx strengths with its weaknesses (lack of mobility.)
9. The speed of the engagement was much more reasonable than in the demo. The high valour units (and generals) are probably having a big effect on kill rates--overdone.
10. The AI did a terrible job with the phalanx. It would not form them into a contiguous line, nor did it make them reasonable depth (I had a range of depths set at the start and it would not alter the shallow one.) I had to be careful to engage them individually and head-on for a decent comparison.

Cool stuff:
The graphics are pretty entertaining during this kind of fight where you have plenty of time to spectate. I watched a number of Carthaginians get "healed." They would get knocked to the dirt, then arise a few seconds later. This happened mainly to swordsmen on the flanks.

**hundurinn** · 08-26-2004, 22:04

Good to know at least in the demo the phalanx is better but I agree the casualties should be higher for the attacker. I suggest to you that you DO NOT make a post about this on the .com forum ~:p . That will cause hawock.

**The_Emperor** · 08-26-2004, 22:14

Come on post it... You know it will finally put an end to that Phalanx vs Legions thread!

**hundurinn** · 08-26-2004, 22:27

NO, do it for US don't post it. It would rase uncountable ammount of posts about how thats not true. Many more about historical accuracy.

The admins wouldn't be able to close them and they would just give up and then the horror would begin. New posts about blood, flaming arrows, pigs and ELEPHANTS, NOOOOOOOOOO

**Dimeola** · 08-26-2004, 23:02

If I remember Cynocephalae (sp?) the macedonian phalanxes were transiting rough terrain and broke up some allowing the romans to hold their front while another Roman unit turned the flank after defeating an aux unit. have you tried this in rough terrain. Does a phalanx break up and/or lose effectiveness when not on level ground?
D

**Red Harvest** · 08-27-2004, 00:12

Originally Posted by Dimeolas

If I remember Cynocephalae (sp?) the macedonian phalanxes were transiting rough terrain and broke up some allowing the romans to hold their front while another Roman unit turned the flank after defeating an aux unit. have you tried this in rough terrain. Does a phalanx break up and/or lose effectiveness when not on level ground?
D

I haven't tried rough terrain. I would expect them to suffer as you have stated. I've not tried any terrain mods. CA is usually pretty good about stuff like that.

I also need to see what happens with two or three ranks. The phalanx should suffer in offense and defense and should have some gaps and perhaps morale issues. I think CA has really missed something in the initial clash of spears/shields though. The Hastati and Principes should take a bit of a beating getting through (and/or it should take longer, during which time they would take casualties, but be unable to inflict many/any.) On balance though, the Principes and Hastati don't throw their pila...so there is some compensation at the moment.

I want to play with elephants and cav some though first...

The problem in the demo has to be the super high experience Hastati. They could shred the phalanx one-on-one. I think I'll retry it with more typical unit stats (and bigger phalanxes.)

**Aelwyn** · 08-27-2004, 00:59

Well thats good. See I said that we didn't know about morale at (I assume you used) valour 0. Maybe its not as bad as we thought.

Still, the 'special' functions kinda bother me.