Elephants!

[hundurinn]

I played the battle of Trebia and I had routed most of Hannibals army EXCEPT one unit of elephants. So with the rest of my army I decided to attack them thinking victory was certain. After few minuites one elephant was dead and the rest of my army routed. Skirmishing didn't seem to scare off the elephants and 2 full units of Principeis (sorry for bad spelling) 1 unit of Triarii and 1 unit of Hasataii didn't seem to do any good. Anyone else suffered so humiliating defeat? But my question is. Are the elephants going to be that powerful in the full game? If 400 men can kill one elephant and still loose then I think that victory against elephants is impossible.

[Leet Eriksson]

I think some factions get better stats for some units. In battle of trebia unit preview screen if you highlight the carthage flag you'll notice the advantages they have "Flexible selection of troop types plus powerful elephants" or something similiar.

[Steppe Merc]

Besides, African Elephants are bigger and stronger than Indian.

[Leet Eriksson]

I thought the carthaginians used a smaller forest elephant thats now probably extinct... don't recall they used the bigger african ones. Any historical buff know anything about this?

[Lucius Lucullus]

I thought the carthaginians used a smaller forest elephant thats now probably extinct... don't recall they used the bigger african ones. Any historical buff know anything about this?

Correct IIRC they didnt have towers either

From what I recall from TC, there were a smaller type of elephants used by the Ptolomaic army at the Raphia episode

[afrit]

From the Wikipedia web site (excerpts): Wikipedia elephants
"The first military application of elephants dates from around 1100 BC and is mentioned in several Sanskrit hymns...The battle of Gaugamela (October 1, 331 BC), fought against Alexander the Great was probably among the first confrontations of Europeans with war elephants... The successors to Alexander's empire, the Diadochi, used hundereds of Indian elephants in their wars. The Carthaginians and the Egyptians began taming African elephants for the same purpose. Indian elephants were larger but did not guarantee victory for Antiochus III the Great at the battle of Raphia in 217 BC. The Numidians used the Forest elephant.

The smaller Forest elephant (Loxodonta cyclotis) used to be classified as a subspecies of the larger L. africana. But in 2001, DNA analysis used to trace poached ivory found too many differences between the 2 subspecies and they were therefore classified as distinct species. So now there are 3 species in the elephant genus (Indian, African and Forest).

I dunno if in RTW they will distinguish the 3 species. In TC battle of Raphia there was a big deal made of the different elephant sizes. And the unit list in the pack_0 data file includes forest elephant. So they probably distinguish them.

Afrit

[Steppe Merc]

Oh. Oops.

[Jeanne d'arc]

Hmm, just try and suround the elephants and they will rout eventually.
When i used my elephants vs the romans for the first time at the trebia battle i simply let them go head on first in the roman army and let them cause havoc and chaos, this was a wrong strategy however cause after 5 to 10 seconds both my elephant units routed and trampled my own men when they returned.
Now i let the romans advance untill they meet my poeni infantry then i use the elephants to attack the flanks on both sides of there army, the result was that the elephants lasted a load longer, most of the times they stayed under my control and the romans got severely hammered.War winning units those elephants i tell ya.

Bottom line is that if u can manage to get the elephants isolated from the bulk of the carthagenian army then they will rout more quickly.
With 400 men u should be able to suround that elephant group easely to have it route quickly.

[Jacque Schtrapp]

I've played the battle of Trebia a half dozen times now as the Carthaginians and my experience with elephants varies. Sometimes they trample everything in sight and other times they spook and run amok. I can't quite figure out what causes them to go nuts. I've also noticed that if you get their charge stopped they won't go down easy, but they also don't seem to do much damage. It's all about the cccchhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrggggeeeeee!!!!!!!

[Red Harvest]

There are a couple of problems. First, elephants are a bit over represented in numbers at Trebia. There are ALOT of elephants on the field. Hannibal had 28,000 inf; 10,000 cav and no more than 37 elephants. It is unclear how many were actually serviceable at this time and were used on the field. A severe storm after the battle, plus wounds, and the severe weather of the preceeding alpine crossing all took their toll, so that only one beast was available after that--the rest were dead.

Back to the numbers. In the demo hannibal has 800 men vs. ~38,000 actual. Ratio = 95:2. I don't think that is the ratio one would want to use to simulate the battle ("here's your elephant), but the number in the demo seems a bit high. Perhaps something like three per flank would be a bit more representative scale wise.

There seems to be some sort of problem of elephants not being properly weakened by pila. I've tested small elephant units versus hastati and principes and the pila don't seem to have any impact. Melee will take them out, but it is VERY messy. Pointy sticks and missiles should be a serious issue for elephants. Once an elephant unit penetrates a formation though...it should be pretty awful trying to deal with them, since they are now "in the backfield" and in the middle of your army.

[Colovion]

Elephants should be able to crush through most any line, but if they stand there for any number of time they should be scared off by men around them chopping at their hamstrings and poking their eyes out as soldiers are likely to do in a situation like that. I've seen too many instances of Elephants running into the middle of units, standing for a few seconds, and then flinging a few more units about and then maybe charging again after another pause.

You know how mounted units aren't the greatest melee units once the charge is done and you're bogged down? It should be at least twice as bad for elephants.

[Red Harvest]

Elephants should be able to crush through most any line, but if they stand there for any number of time they should be scared off by men around them chopping at their hamstrings and poking their eyes out as soldiers are likely to do in a situation like that. I've seen too many instances of Elephants running into the middle of units, standing for a few seconds, and then flinging a few more units about and then maybe charging again after another pause.

You know how mounted units aren't the greatest melee units once the charge is done and you're bogged down? It should be at least twice as bad for elephants.

I don't know. I would think your best chances come from keeping them out of the formation in the first place. Throwing/shooting pointy things at them is the start, then opposing them with spears (assuming you have one.) Once they get into your formation the formation is going to disintegrate (scatter). I doubt they would stop. And if they did it won't be hard for them to get moving again unless they stood still for a fair bit (since everyone will clear out around them initially.) You can't corral one as easily as you might a horse.

I've experimented with the AI with different elephant unit sizes modded. The AI elephants charge back and forth through the units causing absolute chaos. Of course the legions can't seem to throw their pila as the beasts charge (ahhh, the same old TW bug remains.) Of course the pila of the flanking units beside the victims are nearly completely ineffective as well...