How viable will the historical Roman tactics be?

[TinCow]

I have played several battles, the original and mods, where the Roman army sets up in the historical three ranked formation. Every single time I have done this, the Roman formation has been reduced to a rabble of disorganization within a minute of first contact. It seems to me that the old MTW methods of lining up spear-style defensive units in front and sword-style offensive units in back with cavalry on the flanks is more effective. I am concerned that using the traditional Roman formations (that served the Republic/Empire so well) will only result in defeat in RTW. Has anyone found an effective way to make use of the layered Roman formation?

[Tamur]

Good point. I think the effectiveness of the Roman legions was based on both their depth and their width. A pre-300 BC legion was generally made up of 4000-4500 infantry.

The fact that we're working with a few 100-man units instead of 45 of them makes a big difference. Expecting any GPU on the planet to real-time two 4000-man armies with 2000 support/missile troops, let alone three-six such, is too big a stretch.

What that spells for tactics is, I think, historical tactics will get you wiped out because you simply haven't got the vast numbers that were historically important for the Roman legions.

Just my opinion though... it'd be interesting to experiment with this.

[Red Harvest]

It really depends on how they program the UI for Roman formations and now Roman AI use formations throughout engagement. The Roman system is infantry attack oriented. The velites should be used to engage/drive back skirmishers, and to harrass the infantry before falling back. This is an important step, the velites should withdraw through intentional gaps. Next the gaps close as the Hastati move forward to unleash their pila before charging the main line. There should be a way for a player to advance in such formations and to issue group commands that work this way. The princeps will move up to exploit weaknesses/gaps or support the Hastati or allow battered Hastati to withdraw. As it is I've had trouble getting the AI to use its pila. The cav should protect the flanks (rather than charging the center and stronger flank as they do in the Trebia demo.)

The triarii remain in reserve to protect against attack in the rear, to cover a withdrawal (hastati/princeps beaten.) This triarii doctrine can be both a strength and a weakness. If it is "enforced" for certain periods, then it robs the player or AI of a significant portion of your force, but it also provides a reserve. The triarii doctrine was discarded later. Most great generals throughout history have thrown most of what they had at the places that would make the difference, rather than holding a substantial reserve. This increases the liklihood of success. However, this is risky, because if it fails, the whole army can be routed. In chess we call it a "sharp position"--one where you are either going to win or lose, very little chance of a draw because there is no good way to disengage. A not so great general who does this will either have not understood the key positions, or will have been mismatched, or executed poorly. Result is they end up routed.

[TinCow]

It could very well be that the game lacks the proper number of troops for traditional Roman tactics to work. However, shouldn't the armies be 'scaled' to remove this problem already? In my experience there are two major problems so far as the Romans in the demo are concerned. First, the Velites don't seem to be very effective since their range is so short that charging 'barbarians' are upon them very quickly. A similar problem is also encuntered with the Hastati who, in my experience, do not seem to either use their pilia very effectively or sometimes at all. Second, the lines seem to be very easily flanked. While this can certainly be countered with the Triarii, it still usually results in heavy casualties to the front lines which could pose some serious problems for an extended campaign.

The first problem could be fixed with modding/patching but the second seems more inherent in the engine.

[Red Harvest]

It could very well be that the game lacks the proper number of troops for traditional Roman tactics to work. However, shouldn't the armies be 'scaled' to remove this problem already? In my experience there are two major problems so far as the Romans in the demo are concerned. First, the Velites don't seem to be very effective since their range is so short that charging 'barbarians' are upon them very quickly. A similar problem is also encuntered with the Hastati who, in my experience, do not seem to either use their pilia very effectively or sometimes at all. Second, the lines seem to be very easily flanked. While this can certainly be countered with the Triarii, it still usually results in heavy casualties to the front lines which could pose some serious problems for an extended campaign.

The first problem could be fixed with modding/patching but the second seems more inherent in the engine.

The skirmish problems are big, and pila use is not right yet either. However, I can defend CA on the demo battle with respect to the velites. They said they scripted the velites to withdraw easily and be ineffective for the battle. The reason was that in the real battle it was a drizzling rain and very cold. The velites had depleted quite a bit of their javelins skirmishing with the Numidians before the battle. They used a string release or something like that and apparently many had become unusable from multiple river crossings and the rain. (The Trebia was in multiple branches at the time--not a single crossing.) So playing the demo battle with script is not a fair measure of the velites. The carthaginian skirmishers have NO excuse!

Hopefully the scaling will be logical. I've done tests with 60 man triarri vs. 100 man Hastati--it is a roughly even fight. That is about the right relative scale. I hope the Roman unit production is more akin to producing a whole legion (rather than just ordering units.) That would be interesting since it could take awhile, but you get a full legion. It would help the AI form logical armies as well...(remember the all ballista and peasant armies from the early days of MTW, LOL!) Legions could also be two units of each type or more as well.

[Stuie]

I hope the Roman unit production is more akin to producing a whole legion (rather than just ordering units.) That would be interesting since it could take awhile, but you get a full legion. It would help the AI form logical armies as well....

Now that is a good idea, and seems more like the historical Roman way of raising forces. Why do I get the feeling it will not be implemented in that manner.

Nice to see some constructive criticism!