lemme think...
I know, Wes Bentley!
lemme think...
I know, Wes Bentley!
Why do you hate Freedom?
The US is marching backward to the values of Michael Stivic.
Be careful of getting your history from hollywood; If you are not you will appear increadable ignorant to those who know better. For this up-comming movie a person of mid-eastern desent would be more appropreate. Also actors of different ages. After the end of the 'secound' Pumic war Hannibal settled in Carthage (still unbroken by Rome), He was reported to be 'energetic' in has activities to rebuild the strength of Carthage. Political enemies in Carthage traveled to Rome in 195 bc an denounced him (they said he was getting ready for another war), The Romans decided they had to take him as a hostage, but he discovered their intent and took flight to Antiochus, where he was employed as an advisor untill Antiochus was defeated by Rome. He then made his way to Bythynia on the shores of the Black Sea, where he took his own like to avoid capture; this took place 19 years after the end of the 'Secound' Pumic War.
I agree with Hannibal probably being of Middle Eastern descent, but I don't think the Romans were quite "white" either, and niether were most Italians until the mass Norman and Saxon settlements during the middle ages. Anyone ever seen that ancient painting of the two Romans Scholars? Or any ancient Roman paintings for that matter, they look like your average mediterraneans, dark hair, eyes and skin. Hell they look more Greek then Brad Pitt...he was a joke!
Ick
It's sometimes hard to tell with art... a lot of the paintings I've seen they were really pale, but I'm not quite sure when they were made. But then, people didn't go walking around naked like they did in all those paintings either.Anyone ever seen that ancient painting of the two Romans Scholars? Or any ancient Roman paintings for that matter, they look like your average mediterraneans, dark hair, eyes and skin. Hell they look more Greek then Brad Pitt...he was a joke!
"But if you should fall you fall alone,
If you should stand then who's to guide you?
If I knew the way I would take you home."
Grateful Dead, "Ripple"
Well, the Barca clan was mediterean, so I'd have to go with Hannibal being white. That's my best guess.
Never underestimate a desperate man.
Odysseus
I remember i read that they used a few thousand marocans soldiers for O.Stones Alexander heh so you never know with film companys.
Hannibal was definatley very Lebanese, not "white" or "black" in any sense.
Actually most blacks in North Africa were imported by Colonial powers, (Portugal)
North Africa is and was Middle Eastern, along with the Barca Aristocracy, they were the rich aristocracy, that never mingled with the lesser peoples. They also may have kept the blood line "pure" as interbreeding, or marrying only upper class peoples.
So the person that should play Hannibal, is someone Lebanese, the person from the Matrix? Forgot his name.
Also Italians would have a white/tan skin color and the Saxons never made it that far south, and the Normans only inhabited southern Italy. The Romans would have a white from the Gallic decent, and tan from the sun, and southern cultures.
"Nietzsche is dead" - God
"I agree, although I support China I support anyone discovering things for Science and humanity." - lenin96
Re: Pursuit of happiness
Have you just been dumped?
I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.
You could possiblyhave someone Italian or Greek or maybe even spanish do it. Andy Garcia is mentioned as he would look the part, Antonio Banderas...maybe.
"A man may fight for many things: his country, his principles, his friends, the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a stack of French porn."
- Edmund Blackadder
The basic problem with casting Hannibal in any movies is that there are no middle eastern looking people who could play the role. That is a big enough star to carry the movie. I can think of 2 actors who would look the part of Hannibal, Tony Shalhoub from monk who is Lebanese and Alexander Siddig from star trek DS9. Both of them can act half-was decently and look middle eastern. But given the popular belief that the carthaginians were black, Denziel will probably play Hannibal if they ever make a movie. Also John Wayne as a legionary is not so unbelieveable as John Wayne as the Genghis Khan Temugin (SP).
If you havin' skyrim problems I feel bad for you son.. I dodged 99 arrows but my knee took one.
VENI, VIDI, NATES CALCE CONCIDI
I came, I saw, I kicked ass
Huh? Since when was this popular belief? I have never heard or read that anywhere outside of this thread. Surely the PC gestapo hasn't succesfully rewritten history to the point where people actually believe such nonsense?Originally Posted by lars573
Here are the facts: skin colour was not an issue untill the rise of the slave trade in the 16th century. It is being simplistic to lable someone from the past as "black" or "white" when they themselves would not have considered such triviality. Then of course, there is the fact that the cartheginians were not African natives and not "black". Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument, though.
On the topic of Egypt. The Egyptians were not "black" either, and they aren't today, either, unless I'm mistaken. Leave it to the hordes of brainless PC drones to come up with such nonsense as: "Africa=Black. Europe=white" But the again, PC nutjobs consider race to be the most important aspect of a person and can't actually judge people in any other manner.
"Sit now there, and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come to those whom thou lovest. Thou hast dared to mock me, and to question the power of Melkor, master of the fates of Arda. Therefore with my eyes thou shalt see, and with my ears thou shalt hear; and never shall thou move from this place until all is fulfilled unto its bitter end". -Tolkien
According to imdb.com, Vin Diesel has signed on as the lead in "Hannibal".
Uh, Lars573, you're forgetting one thing. There are a disproportionate number of Jewish-American actors working in Hollyweird at any given moment. Therefore casting an actor of semitic ancestry who is a) somewhat swarthy & b) of middle eastern descent shouldn't be that difficult. I would take it one step further and say that someone of Sephardic Jewish ancestry would probably be a wiser choice than someone of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. It's been my observation that the former are usually darker and swarthier than the latter, and rarely do they possess light colored hair or green or blue eyes.Originally Posted by lars573
Just my 2 cents...
"Why spoil the beauty of the thing with legality?" - Theodore Roosevelt
Idealism is masturbation, but unlike real masturbation idealism actually makes one blind. - Fragony
Though Adrian did a brilliant job of defending the great man that is Hugo Chavez, I decided to post this anyway.. - JAG (who else?)
I find this whole discussion of whether Hannibal was 'black' or 'white' ridiculous. First of all, those two terms mean many different things to people. It would probably surprise most 'white' people to learn that until the 1950s, most 'white' purists didn't consider anyone from southern europe or eastern europe white. That's right, Lithuanians wouldn't be considered 'white' by the group that came up with the concept of whiteness. Irish would qualify, except that Irish weren't considered human. No, I'm not kidding, go read some history books of the timeframe.
Second, there's this ridiculous notion in America that you're either white or you're black. One drop of 'black blood' makes you black. So, people like Cameron Diaz don't qualify as 'white' either.
Does anyone see where I'm heading with this? Due to immigration patterns, warfare and intermarriage, there is absolutely no meaning to 'race' categorizations, especially something so crude and inaccurate as 'white' and 'black'. There are some isolated island communities that haven't intermingled, but they're about the only true 'racial' groups left.
Now, you add into all of this the discussion about Denzel Washington and things really break down. The craft of acting is about your ability to make your audience believe you are the character whom you claim to be. Not that you are, not that you're of the same genetic stock, just that people believe you to be who you say are for the two hours. In my opinion, very very few people practice this craft better then Denzel Washington and I think if he wanted to play Beowulf by the end of the film I'd believe Beowulf must have been a black man.
Now, to say Hannibal must have looked semitic (arabic or Jewish) brings up one small problem... Phoenicians weren't Semitic. There were a lot of semitic seafarers, and semitic empires in the neighborhood at that time (Assyrians) even in ancient days, and they probably arrived and married in Carthage, but how could you know even what they looked like.
Finally, somebody mentioned Greeks, as though they're a racial group. Well, again, big problem. There's about 3 or 4 different groups of people who mixed in what's now Greece to produce the Hellenes (only two I can think of off the top of my head is the Dorians and the Mycenans).
My point in all of this? This question, was Hannibal white or black....it's akin to asking if St. Peter was a Republican or a Democrat (and PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T START)
"A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.
"Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
Strike for the South
Eh, I agree with you on most points there, even though I did start this whole topic. But I'm pretty sure the Phoenicians were Semetic, they spoke the same language and used the same alphabet (Aramaic) as the Assyrians, Babylonians, and Jews (though Hebrew is slightly more unique) and Hannibal is a VERY common Assyrian name, so it would make sense that the phoenicians were semetic. An interesting fact is that Aramaic is the root of Greek, and therefore Latin, and thats where we get the word Phonetics, from Phoenician, and "Poeni infantry" is simply the first half of the word "phoenician" without the "h".
Ick
Fair enough. And I wasn't complaining about the topic in the first place. That wasn't what I couldn't understand. What I was decrying was the way it devolved into "he was white", "no, he was black", "no, he was white and so Denzel Washington can't play him".
I'm sure what I said was offensive to some, but I really didn't mean it that way. I was trying, in my bull-in-a-chinashop way, to point out to everyone that the terms 'white' and 'black' are completely and utterly meaningless in any context but popular culture within the United States. I'm surprised they still even put "African-american, Caucasian" and so forth on racial quota questionaires on stuff.
I didn't think the Phoenicians were Semitic, but I'm perfectly willilng to accept that I could be wrong on that one. My reasoning behind that was 1) I thought the were descended from the same group of people as the Sumerians, who definitely weren't Semitic and 2) I thought the reason the Jews wouldn't accept them, in the old Testament times, was because they weren't Semitic. Again, I could be way off base on all of that.
"A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.
"Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
Strike for the South
It's a shame that Yule Brenner can't be resurrected for one last hurrah.
"Beer - Abraham Lincoln didn't kill the Germans so you could drink grapefruit juice on America's birthday."
-Seanbaby.
Someone mention Lebanon?
I never knew Hannibal was from Lebanese / Phonecian origin.
Carthage was founded by Phonecian colonists.Originally Posted by noramis
GoreBag: Oh, Prole, you're a nerd's wet dream.
Barca, sounds kinda roman...
I think the carthaginian general (from RTW) looks kinda like russle crowe, hollywood
Why do you hate Freedom?
The US is marching backward to the values of Michael Stivic.
Leaving aside the white/black thing, I disagree with the assumption Hannibal was tall, muscular and goodlooking.
Cast Danny Devito for the role I say.
He was a career soldier, and one noted for sharing the hardships of his troops, so he probably was in fairly good shape. His images on coins & such also do not suggest someone who was obese. I agree though that Hannibal wasn't necessarily handsome, particularly after he lost an eye while on campaign in Italy.Originally Posted by Daevyll
I say cast Mike Meyers to play him, he can look like anything
Why do you hate Freedom?
The US is marching backward to the values of Michael Stivic.
Are you perhaps refering to the greek alphabet?Originally Posted by ick_of_pick
Yes, there are signs that the greek alphabet may have been partly influenced by the phoenician but this opinion is doubted by many. There isn't enough evidence to prove this or the opposite theory with certainty.
On the other hand, if you are refering to the greek language itself then i would tell you that this is not correct.
The greek (and the latin) language belong to a different linguistic "family" than the aramaic and the other semetic languages. Greek and latin are of hindo-european origin, unlike aramaic and arabic and hebrew who belong to a semetic linguistic group.
Of course this does not prohibit semetic influences in the greek language and vice-versa but aramaic is certainly NOT the root of greek and latin.
And death shall have no dominion...
Regarding Hannibal, i also agree that dealing with the whole subject of racial differences and skin-colour variations (there can be many...) is generaly idiotic or even suspect at some occasions. I include in this even the cases when a certain "colour" is chosen due to reasons of political correctness.
Of course, for the sake of historical accuracy, an actor with middle eastern looks would probably be closer to the "real thing" than other choices, but still i wouldn't mind seeing an actor with other looks playing Hannibal as long as he can be CONVINCING.
Now, if Vin Diesel has the acting qualities to make me think: "well, he could have been like this" is something doubtful and still left to be seen...
And death shall have no dominion...
Sorry, I should have been more specific, I ment the written alphabet, not the spoken language. Anyway, the Latin Alphabet is as such: A B C D etc... The Greek is Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta... and the Aramaic is Allep, Bet, Gammal, Dallat, or literally translated: Ox, house, camel, door etc... the latin version of writing actually looks more like the orignial cuniform. If you turn "A" upsidedown, you get what looks like the head of an ox, "B" is the shape of a series of houses, C is the camels hump and so on. The only real semtic words the greeks borrowed were for unfamiliar things, mostly foods that did not grow in the area, Oranges for example, in both Aramaic and Greek Orange translates to "portugal." When the Arabs invaded Spain in the 7th century, they found the western coast covered with orange tree orchards and named it Portugal!
Ick
With Hollywood thinking and the American public's ignorance and conscience problems (slavery), ANYTHING related to Africa is linked with sub-saharian ethnicities.Originally Posted by lars573
![]()
That beeing said, rest assured, Hannibal was of Semitic ascendancy and probably quite pure of blood, because of being a nobleman. Casting Denzel (although a fantastic actor) would be ridiculous!!! Any Caucasian of Mediterranean ascendency (dark hair and of somewhat tanned skin) would fill the bill much better...
They're both horrible choises. Although the first is less bad. You must remember that the vast majority of Romans (specially early period) had dark hair, dark eyes and small stature (averaging 1,65m=5'). IIRC, John Wayne had light brown hair, blue eyes and about 6' of height.Originally Posted by lars573
You got to be joking!!!Originally Posted by Encaitar
That "missing link" in Human Evolution? Talk about bad choises...
![]()
Correct in every point, except that Denzel isn't fit for the job. Historical films have to take into consideration the populations of those days and that means ethnicity too.Originally Posted by Don Corleone
I think there is only one actor who could truly pull off Hannibal... and that is Ali G (also known as Sascha Baron Cohen). "Ali G." is vaguely Mediterranean AND vaguely black. He's already good at speaking unintelligable languages. While Cohen is a very white Jew, he can play anything. Hell, he could even play him as a gay Kazakh.
Besides, it's pretty clear that both movies are going to be comedies. Vin Diesel? Fah. I foresee Hannibal, muscles rippling, riding an elephant into battle and single-handedly slaughtering hundreds of Romans who have all conveniently left their shields at home. Very historical.
While Denzel is a good actor, I'm sure his talents can be better used elsewhere. Here's my idea for a movie: "Denzel Washington IS George Washington!" That would probably be more entertaining.
"Scipio is a omosapiun wiv a small dong, geeza" (Courtesy of the Ali G. Translator).
Since you're talking about the alphabet i suppose we're in agreement!Originally Posted by ick_of_pick
It is not entirely clear if the aramaic alphabet is actually the root of the greek and the latin one or if all three of them evolved into what we know through a series of mutual influence and exchange of characteristics. We have to keep in mind that the mediteranean is a sea where sea-faring dates back to very old times and all the peoples inhabiting it's shores were in contact for thousands of years. It is inevitable to think that all of these civilisations "borrowed" and "lent" elements of their own (especially cultural ones) from and to each other.
And about Portugal, i have to admit i didn't know the origin of its name till now. Thanks for a very interesting piece of information!
In fact, the greek name for orange is "portokali". The two words really seem to have the same root with just a change of an "o" to a "u" and a "k" to a "g".
Really, i'm curious, how is orange in arabic or aramaic?
EDIT: Of course, the fact that the names of the letters, so similar in greek and aramaic, actually mean something in aramaic while, at the same time, they mean nothing in particular in greek, seems to support your opinion that the aramaic alphabet preceded the greek and the latin one, so you are probably right.
Besides, some older greek alphabets, like the ones used in some texts (written on clay or stone) dating to the minoan crete are actually hieroglyphics. Therefore, it seems possible that the greeks used the aramaic aphabet as a basis of creating a new, more simple written code.
Last edited by biguth dickuth; 09-14-2004 at 14:09.
And death shall have no dominion...
Bookmarks