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Thread: Hannibal...
Kind of a wierd question, but was hannibal African, as in black, or white/middle eastern? I've seen many different versions of the facts and was just wondering what you all think...
Ick
Ick
Try this link. It has an interesting discussion of the matter.
upi discussion of Denzel Washington as Hannibal
upi discussion of Denzel Washington as Hannibal
Here is a Carthaginian coin with his supposed likeness. Looks like a typical Mediterranean face to me. The nose suggests primarily caucasian.
Hannibal Coin
Hannibal Coin
Eek, yes, this is a hornet's nest amongst Ancient Near East historians and Classicists. A majority favour the idea that Hannibal was Greek-white in the same way that Cleopatra was, but there are those who very fiercely disagree.
The disagree-ers are labeled as 'afrocentrists' while those who fiercely counterattack them are labeled 'eurocentrists'.
It gets very nasty on both sides. I just like reading Latin and Greek, and staying well out of that briar patch!
The disagree-ers are labeled as 'afrocentrists' while those who fiercely counterattack them are labeled 'eurocentrists'.
It gets very nasty on both sides. I just like reading Latin and Greek, and staying well out of that briar patch!
Denzel Washington as Hannibal makes as much sense as Michael Caine as Cetswayo.
He was of typical Southern European look, kinda like a sicilian but not as Italianesque, if you know what i mean.
arg! Vin Deisel as Hannibal?
"Back off Rome, my Elephants got TWO BOTTLES!!!" Pssssht
"Back off Rome, my Elephants got TWO BOTTLES!!!" Pssssht
Hmm... the generals all look really kind of annoying. I think that CA doesn't like us long haired people... as the only units with any real hair at all (past ears), were so called barbarians. Guess most of the units will be bald...
Ugh...
Both are bad casting IMO.
While Denzel Washington is one of the best actors in Hollywood, the Hannibal of history was of Phoenician ancestry. He mostly would have looked more like an Arab or Jew than a sub-Saharan African. Ancient coins back up that view.
Vin Deisel may look more like Hannibal, but he's not a good actor. Is the movie he's slated to star in more of a cheesy unhistoric action movie along the lines of Scorpion King?
Too bad Omar Sharif is an old fart now. Can we go back in time and get the young Omar to play Hannibal?
Both are bad casting IMO.
While Denzel Washington is one of the best actors in Hollywood, the Hannibal of history was of Phoenician ancestry. He mostly would have looked more like an Arab or Jew than a sub-Saharan African. Ancient coins back up that view.
Vin Deisel may look more like Hannibal, but he's not a good actor. Is the movie he's slated to star in more of a cheesy unhistoric action movie along the lines of Scorpion King?
Too bad Omar Sharif is an old fart now. Can we go back in time and get the young Omar to play Hannibal?
Originally Posted by Red Harvest:
Here is a Carthaginian coin with his supposed likeness. Looks like a typical Mediterranean face to me. The nose suggests primarily caucasian.
Hannibal Coin
Yea, that dude definately looks European (but throughly not Roman).Here is a Carthaginian coin with his supposed likeness. Looks like a typical Mediterranean face to me. The nose suggests primarily caucasian.
Hannibal Coin
Originally Posted by Cloudkill:
Yea, that dude definately looks European (but throughly not Roman).
Eh, the curly hair is not that (white) European . Yea, that dude definately looks European (but throughly not Roman).
I agree with the poster who suggested he would look more like an Arab, being of Phoenician ancestry. Which is probably not that different from ancient greek and roman (dark hair, brown eyes,olive skin.. kind of like me
)Afrit
Not White, not Black,.... Cartage was founded by Tyre, its people are Lebanonese (that little country just north of Israel), Thus Hannibal's genetic roots were middle-eastern,....Tunisia, the country where-in the ruins of Carthage lay, is today is nearly all of black African desent, but this is the result of the Barbary slave trade which florished between the 1600's and 1800's. In Hannibal's day the conutry was populated largely by Berbers, Bedowin, Lybians,... and Hannibals people, the Leanonese. Later immergrants included Italians (Romans), Vandals, and Arabs.
Yeah, i figured he would probably have the generic mediterannean/middle-eastern look...ah well, thanks for your help all...
ick
ick
omar sharif would PWN as hannibal.. but yea hes tooooooo old 
please not vin diesel the guy only has one tone of voice
please not vin diesel the guy only has one tone of voice
The upper levels of Carthaginian aristocracy were snobs, and had a distinct Caucasian/Greek/Phonecian look to them, unlike the lower classes.
Hannibal was at the age of 28 when his army arrived on the Po, (after crossing the Alps). He campained in Italy for 17 years. He took his own life on the shores of the Black Sea at age 60.
He may be the wrong colour for the part, but I think Denzel Washington would make a fine Hannibal. Watching him recently in "Man on Fire", I was greatly impressed by his acting skills (although the 10 year old kid in the film also gave him a run for his money!). The real Hannibal is sufficiently lost in time for me not to bother too much about matching his appearance. Good actors should be able to transcend some physical differences between themselves and their subjects. Would certainly be better than Kevin Costner as Robin Hood, John Wayne as a Centurion etc. Vin Diesel might look the part better, but I fear he does not have enough range to make you suspend disbelief.
My only gripe is that Denzel Washington is not sufficiently Australian to play a notable historical general...
I mean, look at the mess Troy got into using americans....
I mean, look at the mess Troy got into using americans....
Originally Posted by Bob the Insane:
My only gripe is that Denzel Washington is not sufficiently Australian to play a notable historical general...
I mean, look at the mess Troy got into using americans....
okay....My only gripe is that Denzel Washington is not sufficiently Australian to play a notable historical general...
I mean, look at the mess Troy got into using americans....
BTW i don't care what hannibal looks like if he can act and vin diesiel (sp?) can't to save his life
what happened to hanibal, after his defeat against Rome?
I find this whole 'black or white' Carthage and, especially, black/white Egypt discussion really insulting. (The discussion in general, not the one here)
From the early nineties it became a matter of debate in American historiography whether or not these societies were white or black. A lot of people argued that traditional history was too eurocentric and that many of the ancestors of western civilisation were in fact 'black'. It was considered political correct to portray Cleopatra as black, and to bring forward the 'Africaness' of Egypt and Carthage. Some even spoke of a 'black Athens'.
What's so insulting about this, and plain ignorant, is that world history is abused and rewritten because of racial preoccupations by the PC movement in the USA. There are, in fact, more racial categories than the two main ones in the US. Carthage is neither black nor white in a modern American sense.
They looked, well, Tunesian. Hannibal, of Lebanese origin with probably a fair bit of indiginous Tunisian blood, was a bit more Middle-eastern looking than most present day Tunisians. As a rule of thumb though, the ancient civilisations appear to have been etnically quite close to the peoples who now inhabit the mediterranean shores. Despite many waves of migration, most territories have not witnessed massed extermination or replacement of peoples.
It is a fallacy to speak of Carthage in a 'black or white?' sense. Some of them are fair skinned, some dark skinned. But that has nothing to do with the etnicity of most Americans. A fair and a dark skinned Tunesian resemble each other much more closely than either of the two with an American with a same tone of colour.
From the early nineties it became a matter of debate in American historiography whether or not these societies were white or black. A lot of people argued that traditional history was too eurocentric and that many of the ancestors of western civilisation were in fact 'black'. It was considered political correct to portray Cleopatra as black, and to bring forward the 'Africaness' of Egypt and Carthage. Some even spoke of a 'black Athens'.
What's so insulting about this, and plain ignorant, is that world history is abused and rewritten because of racial preoccupations by the PC movement in the USA. There are, in fact, more racial categories than the two main ones in the US. Carthage is neither black nor white in a modern American sense.
They looked, well, Tunesian. Hannibal, of Lebanese origin with probably a fair bit of indiginous Tunisian blood, was a bit more Middle-eastern looking than most present day Tunisians. As a rule of thumb though, the ancient civilisations appear to have been etnically quite close to the peoples who now inhabit the mediterranean shores. Despite many waves of migration, most territories have not witnessed massed extermination or replacement of peoples.
It is a fallacy to speak of Carthage in a 'black or white?' sense. Some of them are fair skinned, some dark skinned. But that has nothing to do with the etnicity of most Americans. A fair and a dark skinned Tunesian resemble each other much more closely than either of the two with an American with a same tone of colour.
Originally Posted by Louis IV the Fat:
Carthage is neither black nor white in a modern American sense.
Most of us here know this, we know he's from Lebanon originally and that he's pretty Arabesque in color - but a full on black man is not period correct from what we know of the Ancient Lebanese.Carthage is neither black nor white in a modern American sense.
I know you all know that, Colovion. And I'm happy that we all seem to agree on this one.
I was bashing the PC movement. A line of thought which has led to a full black man being casted as Hannibal - out of deliberate ignorance. They refuse to let cold fact get in the way of welcome emancipatory myth and will thrash anybody who dares to state the obvious.
The obvious being that to cast a black man (or a blue eyed one, for that matter) is a political decision, and not a historical one.
I was bashing the PC movement. A line of thought which has led to a full black man being casted as Hannibal - out of deliberate ignorance. They refuse to let cold fact get in the way of welcome emancipatory myth and will thrash anybody who dares to state the obvious.
The obvious being that to cast a black man (or a blue eyed one, for that matter) is a political decision, and not a historical one.
Originally Posted by Louis IV the Fat:
I was bashing the PC movement. A line of thought which has led to a full black man being casted as Hannibal - out of deliberate ignorance. They refuse to let cold fact get in the way of welcome emancipatory myth and will thrash anybody who dares to state the obvious.
Indeed - here is an interesting link;I was bashing the PC movement. A line of thought which has led to a full black man being casted as Hannibal - out of deliberate ignorance. They refuse to let cold fact get in the way of welcome emancipatory myth and will thrash anybody who dares to state the obvious.
http://skepdic.com/afrocent.html
Barkhorn.
From what I've managed to find so far, my impression is still that Hannibal was more Lebanese/Mediterranean looking than black (or lily white.) I'm not sure how Vin would do in the role from an acting stand point. He is enough of a "mutt" that he could probably "physically" portray Hannibal in a believable sense, but I have lots of questions about other aspects of his performance. And it really depends on the script and what the director/producer are trying to make. I would hope for something of an epic sweep (Spartacus, Gladiator, Braveheart, etc.)
Denzel on the other hand is a great actor, but I'm not sure his voice would be one I would choose as a casting fit for Hannibal. Seems to me you want someone that could look and sound as if he was from the elite of Carthaginian society (well educated) while at the same time incredibly charismatic and inspiring to the average soldier, and able to walk amongst them comfortably. Denzel is probably a bit darker than I would want to cast Hannibal--but that really doesn't bother me too much. I'm not sure what Denzel is missing in the part, I can't put my finger on it at the moment. He often plays a well educated, and/or charismatic person, or a military officer, but there is something about those portrayals that say, "not quite Hannibal" to me. Perhaps it is the maverick, lone hold-out nature of the roles I've seen him in. I see Hannibal as someone that would unite his officers strongly behind him. There is another matter...if you make Hannibal, you must also put together a reasonable "family" of his brothers Hasdrubal and Mago who will also be prominent. Obviously, if Denzel is one then the other two will need to be of rather dark complexion and not look entirely unlike their on screen brother. There is also the father Hamilcar who would be prominent early in the film.
I am having a hard time coming up with someone who is a "natural" for the part--let alone the rest of the family. Just don't cast Travolta...ugghhhh.
Denzel on the other hand is a great actor, but I'm not sure his voice would be one I would choose as a casting fit for Hannibal. Seems to me you want someone that could look and sound as if he was from the elite of Carthaginian society (well educated) while at the same time incredibly charismatic and inspiring to the average soldier, and able to walk amongst them comfortably. Denzel is probably a bit darker than I would want to cast Hannibal--but that really doesn't bother me too much. I'm not sure what Denzel is missing in the part, I can't put my finger on it at the moment. He often plays a well educated, and/or charismatic person, or a military officer, but there is something about those portrayals that say, "not quite Hannibal" to me. Perhaps it is the maverick, lone hold-out nature of the roles I've seen him in. I see Hannibal as someone that would unite his officers strongly behind him. There is another matter...if you make Hannibal, you must also put together a reasonable "family" of his brothers Hasdrubal and Mago who will also be prominent. Obviously, if Denzel is one then the other two will need to be of rather dark complexion and not look entirely unlike their on screen brother. There is also the father Hamilcar who would be prominent early in the film.
I am having a hard time coming up with someone who is a "natural" for the part--let alone the rest of the family. Just don't cast Travolta...ugghhhh.
Well, it is obvious that Denzel will do a better job than Vin. But I won't allow myself to think that Vin can't act well. So far he hasn't done all too good, but don't forget that his roles have so far been something like Rambo. And remember that Stallone has managed to put out a number well acted movies. The way I remember Vin from Saving Private Ryan was a thoroughly positive one, it is not enough to say he is good, but I think it is enough to say we should give him a chance.
The problem with the colour of the main character, in this case Hannibal, can be significantly more than that character himself. Like Red Harvest said, the other main characters have to be like Hannibal, they too were of his social class. But worse yet is that it fairly well accepted that the lower classes were darker than the rich merchant and landholder class of Carthage. That means the army in general should be at least as dark as Hannibal. The result would be an afro-invasion of the quite white Rome... See my drift? That doesn't pose all too well.
Well, I hope that the casters of the movie won't fall into the pit of the black and white armies. It would ruin such a great story.
The problem with the colour of the main character, in this case Hannibal, can be significantly more than that character himself. Like Red Harvest said, the other main characters have to be like Hannibal, they too were of his social class. But worse yet is that it fairly well accepted that the lower classes were darker than the rich merchant and landholder class of Carthage. That means the army in general should be at least as dark as Hannibal. The result would be an afro-invasion of the quite white Rome... See my drift? That doesn't pose all too well.
Well, I hope that the casters of the movie won't fall into the pit of the black and white armies. It would ruin such a great story.
IF Denzel gets cast as Hannibal I'll end up saying: "well Hannibal wasn't originally Black... but he was great in the role regardless"
Andy garcia wouldn't be bad in hte role, but he looks too Italian. What about that guy from Robin Hood, prince of theives?
Originally Posted by Kraxis:
The problem with the colour of the main character, in this case Hannibal, can be significantly more than that character himself. Like Red Harvest said, the other main characters have to be like Hannibal, they too were of his social class. But worse yet is that it fairly well accepted that the lower classes were darker than the rich merchant and landholder class of Carthage. That means the army in general should be at least as dark as Hannibal. The result would be an afro-invasion of the quite white Rome... See my drift? That doesn't pose all too well.
Well, I hope that the casters of the movie won't fall into the pit of the black and white armies. It would ruin such a great story.
That is a very good point. They could get around it a bit by having a bit more of a melange of races for the soldiers/arimies of Hannibal, but it does pose some issues. Probably need to pick a general "ethnicity" for the Numidians, and another for the "african infantry" as well as the spanish, gauls, and various italians on both sides. I don't think you would want to cast it as black vs. white because that is not what I've heard in the history. I have not read anything that suggests it was a race war. The problem with the colour of the main character, in this case Hannibal, can be significantly more than that character himself. Like Red Harvest said, the other main characters have to be like Hannibal, they too were of his social class. But worse yet is that it fairly well accepted that the lower classes were darker than the rich merchant and landholder class of Carthage. That means the army in general should be at least as dark as Hannibal. The result would be an afro-invasion of the quite white Rome... See my drift? That doesn't pose all too well.
Well, I hope that the casters of the movie won't fall into the pit of the black and white armies. It would ruin such a great story.
On a positive note, this provides opportunities for using a variety of actors of various colors and backgrounds to represent the consortium of troops under Hannibal and the nature of Carthage. Properly done this could be an eye opener for the general public, and be rather exotic, yet reasonably historic. Hmm, I could even see having the commanders all speaking a common language (as they most likely did), but the common troops conversing in a number of different languages...
I would hate to see this done as "all caucasian" with a couple of negroes on elephants.
Andy Garcia had crossed my mind as well. I even considered Antonio Banderas even though I'm not really a fan (and I'm not sure how well he could carry such a serious part.)
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