Skirmishers and Cav are the answer to phalanx

**Kagetora** · 09-02-2004, 04:58

After several battles against Phoeni's and Sacred Band Infantry using Velites and Equites and even Numdian Merc's, it is absolutely definite that the best army to take on the phalanx armies is one that has alot of skirmishers and cav. I have personally beaten Sacred Infatry just using Equites and Velites. In battle, you don't need to worry about the slow moving phalanx but more about the Cav and Skirmishers with the Phalanx.

What are everybody else's thoughts.

P.S. If this has already been heavily disscussed than I apologize.

**Oleander Ardens** · 09-02-2004, 11:09

Good combination. Isolated heavy infantry units with no missile support are doomed to lose against a mobile combination of cavalry and skirmishers.

I used similar tactics in MTW, my "Szekely and Jobbagy" combo proved invaluable in the Blitz against the Byz. The Szekely is a fine fast HA and tires the enemy down. The Jobbagy kills this pesky, tired VanGuards and ByzInf with the javelins and with wellcooridinated charges. Hardly any of the enemy can flee due to the superior speed.

I did write a small tactic essay about a Charthie army without any heavy infantry, with a strong cavalry wing, some warelephants and many skirmisher for the fight against heavy Roman infantry with little cavalry and skirmisher support. It may seem risky, but not when your skirmishers work properly...

With the enhanced skirmish it should be even be more easy to split up the unsupported enemy, to tire him, to wear him down, to defeat him and to catch him. A great victory with minimal losses becomes a complete one

I'm looking forward for Parthia, Scythia and Armenia: a complete set of

a) competent skirmishers and missile units - both on foot and on horse
b) hard hitting cavalry

Should be very funny to play them

Cheers

OA

**Omegamann** · 09-02-2004, 12:01

Very good,
I wanted to try this also but couldnt overcome the problem that you cant have two armies of the same faction fighting against each other in the demo.
(I wanted to try phalnax vs. skims+cav+spanish)
I had immense fun with this tatctic in HTW a the Thrakians.
And as Xenophone writes in his Anabasis heavy infantry will get tired and slaughtered facing skimrishers without skimrisher support of there own.

**Red Harvest** · 09-02-2004, 14:49

Problem is, Carthaginian armies were heavy with cavalry and skirmishers as well. So if your cav or skirmishers get engaged, the phalanx will march up and finish off whatever unit gets caught. Also, the phalanx should march up in standard formation, then switch to phalanx.

**Tamur** · 09-02-2004, 15:17

Have had good success against a phalanx group with solely archers (not Roman, the Cretan versions that actually do some damage). I'm glad to hear that some units besides long-range missiles can handle them as well.

Invincibility always means that the weakness hasn't been discovered yet. I'm guessing we'll have a few more harsh surprises once the game comes out, but counter-measures will be discovered eventually.

**Alexander the Pretty Good** · 09-02-2004, 16:32

Just tried a little test battle (at the suggestion of Tamur, I believe)-

Trebbia, with RoDeO mod utility
4 2-valor, 120-man Sacred Band Infantry
vs.
4 2-valor, 120 Cretan Archers (me)

Results - killed all of the Carthaginians except general - archer fire killed all but a dozen or so, when they had routed, finished them off with archers.

Quite fun, and I never lost a man (though it was on medium)!

Maybe the Cretan Archers are an uber, super rare unit or something (phalanxes should hope so

) but an unsupported phalanx should be quite weak to a well balanced (OK, more like heavily missile/skirmish) force.

Still can't wait for RTW to be released.

**Kagetora** · 09-02-2004, 16:50

I love the Cretan Archers aswell. However I try to stick with units specific to that faction, but if I can get them I will. I have been doing some more tests giving the Carthi's Long shield and Sacred band cav, and have found that they are very beatable once drawn away from the phalanx, but you do need more than one unit of your own Equites.

What Period will Roman Cav be available? Can you get them pre-marian or do you have to wait till after the Marian reforms?

P.S. thanks for the feedback.

**Oleander Ardens** · 09-02-2004, 16:55

Yes Omegamann, you really learn a good deal when learning the classics; What would we do without them

To Tamur and Alex: Yes Cretians Archers should own them with the new skirmish AI when there is enough space avaiable. If their moral is high and they don't have to hold ground there is no hope for the unsupported heavy infantry, as history has shown us

I prefer always to combine a strong missle arm on foot with a strong mobile arm as both fit perfectly.
The missiles have the firepower to wear the enemy down, to split them up and the speed to escape the infantry and are not as vulnerable to enemy missiles like HA.
The cavalry has the ability to defeat, supported by the missiles the enemy troops faster than the own skirmishers and is perfectly suited to destroy single elements.

The speed of both makes sure that almost no enemy can escape once he is beaten - priceless

Red Harvest: Against enemys with many skirmishers and a strong cavalry an all cavalry army will be good. Clever use of the terrain and the climat is also a must. As Romans artillery and long-range missiles are needed, at least IMHO...

Cheers

OA

**Oleander Ardens** · 09-02-2004, 17:00

Sorry for the doubleposting:

Kagetora: All points that they are only avaiable after the Marian Reforms...

Cheers

OA

**Psyco** · 09-02-2004, 19:16

Aren't Equites available pre-Marian Reform (ie while you still have Hastati, Principes and Triarii)?

**sparkmaster4513** · 09-02-2004, 20:55

In Fact, thats exactly what the Aetolians did when they where invaded by an Athenian army. They kept their distance and used their unarmored Javilin men and fire and move tactics to completely destroy the Athenian Phalanx.

**Oleander Ardens** · 09-04-2004, 13:10

@ psyco: Yes Equites are pre-Marian; I was talking about "Roman" Aux. Cavalry, wasn't clear enough...

Some comments about the Skirmishers:

It seems that Phalanx units are well-protected against frontal attacks with javelins, so that it is almost a must to hit them from the flanks and the rear for a better effect. Shields seems also to be more effective than in MTW, although scientific testing is needed to come to a proper conclusio..

Cheers

OA